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Posted: 5/24/2018 9:12:18 PM EDT
I see a lot of surplus police shotguns for sale. Has the new generation of police officer totally abandoned the shotgun?
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 9:22:45 PM EDT
yes
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 9:30:27 PM EDT
Stiff Recoil works against the current crop of weak sisters

Plus the spread of buckshot makes for concerns about errant buckshot...

AR & Pistol Carbines have taken over these days.
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 9:45:07 PM EDT
We no longer issue shotguns. We issue handguns and carbines. We approve deputy purchased shotguns for carry provided they qualify. We still buy shotgun ammo, although most of it is used to put down wildlife hit by cars or potentially rabid.
Yeah, shotguns are so 1999...
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 10:01:25 PM EDT
Shotguns are a thing of the past. The AR15 pattern carbine is the present and future.
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 11:04:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Stiff Recoil works against the current crop of weak sisters

Plus the spread of buckshot makes for concerns about errant buckshot...

AR & Pistol Carbines have taken over these days.
View Quote
I wouldn't think errant buckshot would be anymore concerning that firing off a 30 round mag of 5.56 but I guess I'm just getting too old.
It's a lot cheaper to buy shotguns and train with them.
I have no problem with ARs but I believe the shotgun still has its place.
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 11:40:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2018 11:42:35 PM EDT by centurian318]
We use federal tru flight buckshot and One oz slugs in our novas. Well we qualify with both loads but only carry slugs in the gun, the LPA ghost ring sights come in handy.

We also carry Colt 6920’s with aimpoints. Our duty ammo is 55gr ballistic tip, loaded to 223 pressure. Wish we would move to a bonded core 77 grain in 556, for the added barrier penetration.

Technically we have them but command, in their infinite wisdom, removed them from all the patrol vehicles and placed them all in a safe at the station. This was a month or so before our first REAL active shooter call. and to this day, they still live in the safe.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:03:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ryann:
I wouldn't think errant buckshot would be anymore concerning that firing off a 30 round mag of 5.56 but I guess I'm just getting too old.
It's a lot cheaper to buy shotguns and train with them.
I have no problem with ARs but I believe the shotgun still has its place.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ryann:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Stiff Recoil works against the current crop of weak sisters

Plus the spread of buckshot makes for concerns about errant buckshot...

AR & Pistol Carbines have taken over these days.
I wouldn't think errant buckshot would be anymore concerning that firing off a 30 round mag of 5.56 but I guess I'm just getting too old.
It's a lot cheaper to buy shotguns and train with them.
I have no problem with ARs but I believe the shotgun still has its place.
The decline in costs of ARs recently, Vs. price of "Police Grade" shotguns like a 870 P or 590 (not to mention a Benelli M-4) now puts the cost difference closer than ever.

I agree with the Buckshot theory - if used within the proper shotgun range your pellets should all be found in the dead perpertrator, but in our sue happy society these days...
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:09:32 AM EDT
Yes.

I'd much rather have an AR than a shotgun. Shotguns are ideal for beanbags for a standoff less lethal option but suck for pretty much everything else.

My agency still issues shotguns if you want one. I don't have one and have no desire to have one.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:10:02 AM EDT
CBP (OFO and BP) still have shotguns.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:13:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2018 12:14:11 AM EDT by NoImpactNoIdea]
My department is trading shotguns for ARs. Soon there will only be less than lethal shotguns in the field...except for the airport guys who shoot geese!
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:15:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:

The decline in costs of ARs recently, Vs. price of "Police Grade" shotguns like a 870 P or 590 (not to mention a Benelli M-4) now puts the cost difference closer than ever.

I agree with the Buckshot theory - if used within the proper shotgun range your pellets should all be found in the dead perpertrator, but in our sue happy society these days...
View Quote
Very true there.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 7:50:43 AM EDT
All our shotguns got fancy new colored hand guards and stocks and were turned into LTL bean bag guns.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 12:46:23 PM EDT
Honestly, I sold off all of my "combat" or police shotguns a while back.

I keep an AR next to the bed.
Link Posted: 5/25/2018 1:02:06 PM EDT
I like shotguns, but would hate to have one as my only long gun if I had to fight “outside”. To me, the fact a rifle is good 0-300 meters, low recoil and quick to reload, while a shotgun is a close range, heavy recoil, slow to load weapon is the difference
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 12:00:48 AM EDT
we can carry dept issued/personally owned AR's or dept issued/personally owned shotguns.

Our dept issued shotguns are 14inch 870's. Guys carry a mix of each and a couple carry both (our supervisor cars have both in em).

J-
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 2:30:31 PM EDT
IMO shotguns are still a great tool. I also think for many yrs, they have been "underused", (sitting in the trunk of a cruiser, in a gun rack at a
police station, in a gun locker, etc...) I know some officers who would only touch them at the required qual time. The shotgun is harder
to become proficient with.

There's no doubt the patrol rifle is a great weapon also, and its good that agencies are finally getting them on the street. (catching up
with the Ones who have had them already). Usually it would be more beneficial to have it than the shotgun.

But I still believe the shotgun is good to have. There's a reason 1 of ARFCOMs sayings is "Get Both"

Unless there is a need to take it out of inventory, why take it out?

BTW, anyone know who has the best deals on trade-in 870's?
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 3:50:34 PM EDT
It's still a useful tool. I suppose it depends on your environment as well.

Back in 2010 an asshole named Brody Whittaker tried to kill two FHP Troopers.

We tracked him for hours through some extremely thick palmetto flats and waist deep swamps... within minutes, all of wish we had grabbed our 870's vs. our M4's.

Federal 9-pellet Control Flight loads WILL send what's referred to as the "9th pellet flyer". Had the opportunity a couple years ago to train with Tom Givens and saw it first hand. We duplicated the results once we got home with ALL the deputies. As a result, we are switching to 8-pellet when we exhaust current stock.
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 8:24:04 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By helmet91:
CBP (OFO and BP) still have shotguns.
View Quote
Yeah, but they’re locked in a rack and you gotta find the key. Haha.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 5:23:05 AM EDT
We still have our old Benelli M1 Super 90s in the car next to the AR.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 3:26:34 PM EDT
We are issed a shotgun.. and its that crappy 887. Our sheriff will not let us carry an AR, even if we buy it ourselves.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 3:55:20 PM EDT
Shotguns are only useful for breaching and Less Lethal Options for rioting these days.

I love the shotgun. But I know as a cop, a carbine does better.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 9:35:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By helmet91:
CBP (OFO and BP) still have shotguns.
View Quote
BP trains and quals with both and it was up to individual agent to carry one or the other or even none at all. I always encouraged to carry a long gun since either the 870 or M4 was better than the sidearm. Also you had to look at where you worked. In the open areas where BP worked an M4 was going to be a better long range weapon over a shotgun. In border towns like El Paso an 870 might be better because of the amount and proximity of civilians.

In the end the agent decided what to carry based on their own ability with either platform. I think the shotgun was easier to train with and shoot over the M4. Maybe because I shoot NRA High Power and I stressed accuracy at long ranges some agents never really wanted to put in the time and effort to be that proficient. They just wanted to shoot as many rounds as possible and figure some would hit or they would take a shotgun knowing one round of buck was worth 9 shots of .30 cal rounds.

Anywho I believe the shotgun is an awesome weapon with good training. I also believe in the carbine having a place, still you can't beat the sound of an 870 being racked to get someone's attention. I've seen legs turn to rubber when they heard that sound behind them.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 10:41:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Stiff Recoil works against the current crop of weak sisters

Plus the spread of buckshot makes for concerns about errant buckshot...

AR & Pistol Carbines have taken over these days.
View Quote
Solution is to do to the shotgun what we did to the AR - and the Mossberg Shockwave is born.

It's only five shots - Liberal legal.
It's short and light.
It's enough gun for Breed of Peace animals who aren't breeding peacefully, ie just effing you up.
It can breach doors.
It will go thru windshields.
It has the capability of various kinds of ammo as needed, including riot rounds aka "less than lethal."
In the hands of 40 NYPD cops who are surrounding a homeless guy with a knife, it will make some of them think twice about who should or should not pull a trigger. An innocent passerby who is ignoring 40 armed cops aiming at each other in a circle won't be able to sue as often. Win for city liability.

Nothing but positives.

And it also means we have to fulfill the contracts with new weapons as the '34 NFA won't easily accommodate shortening the existing ones in the racks. Nope, you have to start with a receiver that was never fitted with a full stock and long barrel. It can't be a "shotgun" first any more than an AR pistol can start as a "rifle."

Looking forward to the dual SOB holster for those drug detectives on stakeout. We are on the edge of a legendary new era of enforcement and some really badazz movies in the future. "Stakeout" starring Davey Hogg and Cryin Anna Purna: faced with the last deep state drug pushers working out of a New Jersey suburb, Det John Wahkem don's his jack boots once again and pursues them from backyard to bedroom to get his last man. Adult scenes of sexual abuse with a firearm.

No doubt a GD classic and source of many threads quoting famous lines, such as:
Is that a Shockwave or are you just happy to see me?

Link Posted: 5/27/2018 10:47:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 18B30:
Shotguns are a thing of the past. The AR15 pattern carbine is the present and future.
View Quote
This
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 11:13:11 PM EDT
We have both 870 Police Magnums (4 rd mag, nylon stock/forearm), and AR15’s (light & aimpoint PRO), in each car. Two of our training 870’s,(lived in the armory, no slings), were just turned into less lethal guns.

I’ve so much more experience with the AR from being a Marine, that anything with the gun is second nature. Not quite the same for the 870. I have some older officers who are the exact opposite, the 870 is their go to and the rifle is complicated and they only touch it when we force them to.

I still think it has a purpose and we should not give it up.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 12:12:15 AM EDT
Hopefully so beyond a few specialized roles.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 1:14:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2018 1:14:54 AM EDT by downrivertrash]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:

Plus the spread of buckshot makes for concerns about errant buckshot...
View Quote
I would be more concerned about errant .223 rounds striking bystanders than errant buckshot. This is where training comes into play. You need to know what your weapon and yourself is capable of. A shotgun with slugs could engage a target at 50-100 yards better than buckshot but a carbine is a better choice at distance. Lots of things to consider but I'd rather be hit with some stray buckshot than high velocity .223.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 11:14:38 AM EDT
Funny story time. We had an active shooter on the UT campus. He was seen entering the university library with an AK. (walked right past the security guard whose head was stuck in her laptop)

Since we are talking a rock throw from the capitol on a weekday the place was BURiED under police response. Hundreds of officers in about 8 minutes. Even the Beverage Commision guys and a game warden or two..

Everybody looked so cool running around with their plates and rifles. Not one of them had a breaching tool of any sort. A shotgun would have been downright handy. You would think after VA Tech somebody would have noticed that.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 8:58:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
We have both 870 Police Magnums (4 rd mag, nylon stock/forearm), and AR15’s (light & aimpoint PRO), in each car. Two of our training 870’s,(lived in the armory, no slings), were just turned into less lethal guns.

I’ve so much more experience with the AR from being a Marine, that anything with the gun is second nature. Not quite the same for the 870. I have some older officers who are the exact opposite, the 870 is their go to and the rifle is complicated and they only touch it when we force them to.

I still think it has a purpose and we should not give it up.
View Quote
I'm one of the opposite. I've never served in the military but have had many hours of training with the 870. I own several AR15s but the shotgun is second nature to me.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 9:25:05 PM EDT
Our local depts still issue both.

I think both have their purposes.

But if I had to pick would go with a carbine.
Link Posted: 5/29/2018 7:48:50 AM EDT
I know in my agency, you carry the shotgun until you get rifle qualified for the most part.
Link Posted: 5/29/2018 10:35:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brown424:
We no longer issue shotguns. We issue handguns and carbines. We approve deputy purchased shotguns for carry provided they qualify. We still buy shotgun ammo, although most of it is used to put down wildlife hit by cars or potentially rabid.
Yeah, shotguns are so 1999...
View Quote
This.

I enjoy shooting mine but the AR is the “go to” nowadays. We stopped issuing them several years ago and only use them to put down animals as well. I will say recently no one had one when it was needed for a moose so they are trying to hand a few out per the shifts.
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 5:51:14 PM EDT
I have an issued Mk18 with a can. It's my "go-to" long gun for most situations, but I'm old school enough (15 years) to believe the shotgun still has a place. Remington 870 with ghost rings sits in a rack right next to the Mk18.

Whenever we do range work with shotguns, lots of the younger ones among us struggle with shotguns. They're just not familiar with them and their capabilities.

At most "police engagement distances" a shotgun with a slug will do devastating damage. Buckshot, too.
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 7:17:35 PM EDT
Yes. In about 18 months my agency will be recalling all issued shotguns. According to our primary firearms instructor in the division I work out of there's only like two or three guys that even qualify on them anymore. The agency philosophy is there's nothing a rifle can't do equal or better than a shotgun.
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 7:35:06 PM EDT
I was actually interviewed on the news justifying my department's purchase of 500 AR rifles. The decision was already made, but since I am "the gun guy" I was voluntold to be the spokesperson. When we do the transition, the general issue shotguns will be traded away.
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 7:43:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 8:06:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2018 8:13:07 PM EDT by Burnsome-]
Depends

Six 00 Buck rounds = 72, 32-caliber BB's coming out of an 870 Police Magnum shotgun in a relatively short period of time.

On that "active shooter" call at the local school, if that dumbass dude with a bomb looking for his aliachbar snackbar is down the long hallway, I think I can hit him with at least a few of those 72 BB's rather efficiently since they bounce/skip off the floor and walls rather nicely on their way towards the snackbar dude. If he has a dead man switch on his bomb, I'd rather he blow his snackbar ass all over as far away as possible when he goes down...

Just sayin.....

ETA - Obviously its not the only recommended weapon of choice for a team dealing with that type of issue but still viable IMO
Link Posted: 6/1/2018 6:17:12 AM EDT
At my agency we still have a few shotguns mostly mossbergs and four benelli shotguns . Most guys that carry a long gun carry an AR rifle. Don't see many shotguns around any more. I still occasionally carry one if the mood strikes though.
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 5:02:56 AM EDT
"Relic of the Past"? Maybe so, but so am I.

Our unit's have less lethal shotguns in the racks. Most patrol officers carry personally owned AR's. A few of us have shotguns too (mostly issued, but personally owned is allowed). I'm proficient with both.

On calls where long guns are appropriate, if I'm not one of the first on scene, I will respond with my 870; cylinder bore with rifle sights & WML. It is loaded alternately with buckshot/slugs. I know most everyone else is carrying an AR, so I figger having a good breacher on scene is a good idea.
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 10:29:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ryann:
I see a lot of surplus police shotguns for sale. Has the new generation of police officer totally abandoned the shotgun?
View Quote
I carry both. Shotgun in the front, rifle in the back. My agencies rifle policy is much more restrictive than the shotgun policy is.

Splitting them up means that if I ever have to bail out of the car I'm never without a long gun.
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 11:49:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2018 11:50:19 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 6/4/2018 4:00:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Do PD's Buy $ 350 ar15s?

some may just be turn over as old shotguns are replaced. There are tons of surplus pistols that have nothing wrong with them, except maybe they're 40, but even 9s are around
View Quote
Our Last AR purchase in bulk was iirc, 2013. $499 for the rifle itself. The deal was for optics, spare parts, mags and a lockable hardcase though so the per item price was a lot more.

There are ALWAYS old PD shotgun trade ins. They were cheap enough over the years that is was better financially to buy new rather then refurbish/repair. Same with a lot of the pistols. Last time around it was cheaper to trade for new M&P's than it was to swap out the night sights on the current guns.

Going from memory here, but the new guns after trade-in saved something like $80 over the cost of swapping the sights on each refurb.
Link Posted: 6/5/2018 9:04:05 AM EDT
We carry 590's and ar's still. for the shotguns its slug only and of course we have dedicated less lethal shotguns also
Link Posted: 6/5/2018 2:34:39 PM EDT
Back in the early 60's The NYPD purchased 800 Ithaca shotguns and

several hundred after that.Officers were trained. Never seen any issued.Wonder where thy are today?
Link Posted: 6/5/2018 2:56:17 PM EDT
Yes and with good reason. Shotguns have almost entirely been relegated to the breaching / LL role.
Link Posted: 6/5/2018 2:59:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Burnsome-:
Depends

Six 00 Buck rounds = 72, 32-caliber BB's coming out of an 870 Police Magnum shotgun in a relatively short period of time.

On that "active shooter" call at the local school, if that dumbass dude with a bomb looking for his aliachbar snackbar is down the long hallway, I think I can hit him with at least a few of those 72 BB's rather efficiently since they bounce/skip off the floor and walls rather nicely on their way towards the snackbar dude. If he has a dead man switch on his bomb, I'd rather he blow his snackbar ass all over as far away as possible when he goes down...

Just sayin.....

ETA - Obviously its not the only recommended weapon of choice for a team dealing with that type of issue but still viable IMO
View Quote
Think about what you just said. Long engagement distances. Crowded public area. Nothing about that scenario gives me a warm and fuzzy for a shotgun.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 8:50:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 2:59:32 PM EDT
Just less lethal as far as I know. Our state academy hasn't trained shotgun in years.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 3:31:56 PM EDT
Optional for our guys
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 6:05:24 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JET71:
Back in the early 60's The NYPD purchased 800 Ithaca shotguns and

several hundred after that.Officers were trained. Never seen any issued.Wonder where thy are today?
View Quote
A thousand spread out over an agency of 30,000 officers.
They probably have most of those shotguns stashed away somewhere, but as an urban agency suffering from a lot of big city agency inertia, you were never going to see the majority of those officers given a long gun
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