What do you guys think about the Israeli bulldozers that demolished 73 homes in Rafah rendering 123 families homeless?

I understand that the Israelis wanted to retaliate for the guerilla's attack on an Israeli army outpost, but why piss off the civilians more buy demolishing their homes??  Won't it just give them more reasons to join groups like HAMAS??  [:\]

[url]http://www.iap.org[/url]

They bulldoze the homes that gunfire comes from.  Sounds wonderful to me.  An improvement would be with the assholes and their famlies still inside.  Another improvement would be to flatten the whole town & pave it over with bacon grease.

Regardless of whether or not not they join hamas, I believe the Isrealies just wanted them to move!

[beer]

I see.  So the army outpost is next to those homes and the gun fire came from that area.  But isn't it unreasonable to just demolish their homes??

This is a simple one..."Why pick on innocent civilians?"...let's see, innocent Israeli civilians killed at malls by suicide bomber, innocent Israeli civilians killed at fast food restaurant by suicide bomber, innocent Israeli civilians killed on bus by suicide bomber.  These bombers (all palestinian males) are aiming towards young Israeli's...going after the kids, what a surprise, the Israeli's take exception to these actions.

I'm not a supporter of Israel, don't like their government and the scum in Israel. They aren't our friends (USS Liberty, Jonathan Pollard, sales to Red China of missiles and technology, support of Iran while our people were still hostages and Massad sharing of info with the Red Chinese).  The Israeli's are bad guys on many levels...but so are the Palestinian terrorists.  Arafat is scum and a terrorist who has supported killing American's.  The Arab states use Palestinians for suckers and dupes. Jordan was created when Israel and Palestine was, they don't welcome in the Palestinians, they just use em' for political fodder.  Eventually, the place will be glowing with a 1/4 inch coating of tektite...until then, they'll both have a wonderful time killing each other...don't care, don't want to pay for either one of them with US taxpayer money or lives.

Would it be better if they returned fire on the houses and killed people who were not firing at them?  Besides it has to be fun demolishing houses.[}:D]

Compared to what we'd do in Afghanistan, bulldozing the houses is a [b]very[/b] tempered response!  

I see.  Thanks.

[b]DITTO.....[/b]

Trakehner, Very well said!

Let me clarify some of your facts:

-The Liberty was a mistake, and not made deliberately. There was a regular inquiry made by the US Navy. Israel had no responsibility. Furthermore there were several attempts of the Egiptian navy to attack the coastal cities of Israel, and the IDf exchanged the USS Liberty for an Egiptian warship. During the Gulf War 9 British soldiers where killed by US Forces. Should UK people think that USA are not their friends?

-The Phalcon radar technology was no more sold to China under US Defence Dept. of USA. Israel is going to pay 1 Billion dollar of fine for it and their aren't going to ask one cent to USA.

-During the Ayatollah Revolution, Iran called USA "The Big Satan" and Israel "The Little Satan". It is known that Iran has been supplyed in the past time of long range missiles and it is looking for mass destruction warheads. How can the Mosad collaborate with it's own enemy?



I concern only about facts, for the rest there is the 1st Emendament. You Americans teached me how big and important this Emendament is. And the Second Emendament to defend the First one...

Shalom!

The Isrealis are a ruthless bunch...(in case someone doesn`t realize this already)...there`s not much point in questioning thier motives.......an eye for an eye type of justice.............kind of old testament..[thinking]

I guess the jews has come a long way since the time of hiter.

Bravo Paolo!...You are one of the kind...

You guys missed the point here....The goal of the Israelis is to show that terrorism will not succeed. When the Palestinians resolve to terrorism, there will be no negotiation, no compromise, but only brought destruction to their own people. The destruction and the suffering will stop only if the terrorists behave like human and come to the table for negotiation.

To win the heart and mind of the Palestinian people is not a resolution when dealing with terrorism.

I am no jew, but the U.S should learn from the Israelis to deal with the terrorist. When innocent people, women and children died at the the hand of the terrorists, the tought better get going.  Message to the terrorists: You mess with us, we will go after you, your family, your village, your dog and your cat with No mercy.

Unfortunately it is not all like you said.
I am half Israeli, now, having an Israeli wife, but I make a distinction between Israel and her goverment. I love Israel, but I don't like her actual government
I read a couple of history books about Israel and the Sionist-Arab conflicts. I didn't came yet to any definitive conclution on every issue, but:

1) Israel must exist for the simple reason that a Jew should have at least one place in the worls were he can live without being harassed. In the history, and looking the behaviour of us goyim, a Jew is always considered something else even if he becames Moslem, ateist, socialists or fascists (yes... before 1938 there were Italian Jews that were member of the Fascist Party...)and discriminated in dark times.

2) After 1967 the victory over the Arabs made us (I am talking as Israeli now...) mad and arrogant. In the Occupied Territories we behaved without any respect of any civil rights. we didn't let them demonstrate even in the pacific way: if you close a boiling water, the pot sooner or later will explode. But we were do full of our victories that we didn't consider their side. Btw, the habit of destroying the houses of the supposed/selfdeclared terrorists was inherited by the Israelis from the British Troops of the Palestinian Mandate. It was of common use for the British to punish the Arab (and Jewish) Palestinians this way.

3)Sharon is a liar, no more and not less than Arafat. In 1982 he lied to his own government, he lied to Begin, to the IDF, to the Lebanese Christian Arabs on almost everithing: target of the invasion, mode, casualties, atrocities.
I pray everyday that there will be new elections. What do you make to think that he is not lieing anymore?
We need a men of good will to show that REALLY he is looking for peace. Retaliation and the use of a powerful army like the IDF should be used only if the ultimate project is to cut the head to the terror and help moderate Palestinians (there are... they risk their life but there are...) to take the power. Everything else is bullying.

As for the way USA are fighting terror, up to now, you showed wisdom, determination and force. If Bush son will complete the work of his father, not leaving it half way like in 1990, I have nothing to say that "Good Job, mr. Bush..."
Sorry for the long post... [:)]

There is simply no other side in this conflict to choose - you either have the vicious, but westward-looking Israelis, fighting for their very own survival, pro-democracy, pro-civil rights, and pro-US, or you have the Marxist-Leninist post-graduates of Moscow University revolutionaries, who have taken over an eastward-looking disparate group of former Egyptians (Gaza Strip), Jordanians (West Bank), and Syrians (Golan Heights), and, adding the counter-revolutionary mix of militant Islam, have regularly called upon the complete and utter distruction of the State of Israel.

This past week's seizure of 50+ tons of weapons and munitions tell you all you need to know about which side you need to back!

If the Israeli habit of house-flattening tends to excite the Arab Street to frenzy, one day the same Arab Street might ask itself, just what has this 52 year armed struggle and the more recent Intifadah gained for our people?

Then we may be on the road to peace.

Eric The(Maybe,MaybeNot-SeeRevelation)Hun[>]:)]

They seem to do fine in the U.S.A.



And a war criminal.  This man [b]does not[/b] want peace.



New elections will not help.  The Israelis have already shown their will by removing Barak and installing Sharon.  It seems on either side that any leader who wants peace will never survive.  Further, while the Israelis occupy territory that is not rightfully theirs and that they were never alotted, there is no chance of peace.

After being forced to move from my homeland, I'd be pissed too.  I don't blame the Palestinians for fighting the Isrealis.  I don't disagree with the arms shipment to them either.  Our own foundation is based on armed resistance to tyranny.  When will the U.S. stop blindly kissing Isreal's ass?  They epitomize oppression.

[(:|)]

Who are you guys to critique a country in a state of war since it began? They do what they have to to survive. The Palestinians don't want to share the land they want the Jews out of there or dead. That is their goal. So all the peace oriented leaders of Israel were destined to fail because the Palestinians don't want Peace or to share the land. They want it all with no Jews.
Hats off to a country that survives so well surrounded by it's enemies.
I have no sympathy for the Palestinians. If they want the land so bad , instead of fighting like cowards, take it by force. But they can't do that. they want to get the sympathy of all the freakin liberals in this country. They want to go blow up a Nightclub or a coffee shop instead. If you want Isreal...bring it.

Question:  What do you guys think about the Israeli bulldozers that demolished 73 homes in Rafah rendering 123 families homeless?


Answer:  Because Arafat can't control the militants, they are going to do the job for them.

Another thing, Israel won the wars it fought against the Arab nations around it who wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth, afterwards, instead of ousting all the Palestinians from the lands, the Israelies let them stay.  

This was their mistake, IMHO.  They should have excersized the right of a winner to kick out the losers.

A rather oversimplified view I have isn't it?  

Thats my version of reality.
[beer]

I do not condone terrorism, but exactly how does a group of people with very limited arms (mainly small arms and explosives) fight a nation backed by the mightiest military in the world?

Unfortuantly I can't really see how anyone can argue this... Personally I support the isrealis on many things but when you take a conflict thats TWO FUCKING MILLINIA old its kinda hard to justify what happened to them "yesterday".

My .02

"Intifada":

They send the unarmed and children up against the Israeli Army.
Then a few armed palestinians try to get the Israelis to fire on them, hoping that the civilians (hopefully children) are hit.  They then plaster these images all over Arab TV, hoping that the Arab world will rise up and destroy Israel.  
This hasn't been too successful, so far.

The palestinians and Hamas/Hezbollah are savages.  They are the enemies of Western Civilization.  

It's behavior modification, and it's right on.  Unlike the US, the Israelis make it clear that if you fuck with them, you will pay.  Right now.  They don't waffle, they don't hesitate- they apply consequences and apply them hard.  

Works for me!

Right.  Because the Palestinians were there when the Jewish state was "created" on their land.  Ever since then the Palestinians fought the taking of their land.  I would too.


Damn straight.  I would fight too if someone "annexed" my land.  Damn straight.


Peace loving like Sharon?  Why yes, he's very peace-loving.



I agree.  Killing civilians is basically what Bin Laden did when he had a problem with American [b]policy[/b].  I think the Palestinians are justified to use force when diplomacy fails to provide justice, but that force should not be directed at civilians.  I guess the terrorist activities exemplify how frustrated the Palestinians are, but I think that it is wrong and will ultimately backfire.

[(:|)]

Don't forget: not all Palistinians are Muslim.  The Palistinian Christians (2% of Palistine) are caught in the middle.  The Palistinian Muslims hate them because because they're Christian, and the Israelis hate them because they're Palistinian.  They don't get involved in the terrorism, yet they are punished by the Israeli gov't/military all the same.

My friend's family lived in that region on the same land for 5 generations until the Israeli gov't decided to bulldoze their home (w/ 1 hour notice to get all of their belongings out).  The reason?  Not in retaliation for a terrorist attack, not because the family was suspected of being involved in violence.  They wanted the land, that's the only reason.  They displaced many families for no reason other than greed for land.  

These two brothers have been fighting since the time of Isaac and Ishmael, and the squabbling has gotten out of hand.  I understand Israel is fighting for their survival, and I don't want to see them wiped out, but their actions are hardly better than the ones they're trying to defend themselves from.  

Bin Laden does not want to us change our policies, he wants us to die.

Ask yourselves this:

If we, as a nation, surrendered unconditionally, to Al Qaeda, what do you think would happen?

How about if Israel surrendered unconditionally to The Palestinian Authority?

The answer to both questions is slaughter.
They would round us all up and slaughter us.
That is their stated goals.

Reverse the questions, and you'll find that all the US or Israel wants is to live in peace and SAFETY.
If you can't see this, you're blind.

Yes, he wants us to die... because of our policies.  Numerous interviews give us accounts of his ranting about our policies.  I stand by my statement stating that he killed civilians because he had a problem with American policy.



Bullshit.  I think both sides want to "take all" in this conflict, regardless of cost.  If peace were the issue, the Jews would not continue to usurp the area the "gave" the Palestinians, and build deeper settlements.  No one is suggesting that the Jews surrender to the Palestinians.  But the Jews displaced the Palestinians and gave them Gaza.  But the Jews continued to police Gaza, and then renegged and started to build Jewish settlements there.

As much as I want to sympathize with the Jews (whom I prefer over Muslims), I can't ignore the brutalization of the Palestinians.  The Jews have much more influence in the U.S. than the state of Palestine.  And much of the government and media ignore the Palestinian plight.  I don't think there will be a solution to the situation over there in my lifetime.  There are too many historical grudges.

[(:|)]

If The Palestinians COULD, they would "push the Isralis into the sea".  But, they aren't able to.  That has been their stated goal, amongst themselves, however.

If the Israelis wanted to do this to the Palestinians, they COULD.
But that's not their goal.

The Israelis want to have peaceful trading partners for neighbors.
The Palestinians don't want to have ANY Israeli neighbors, even peaceful ones.

Well, I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you.  Given that the Isreali state was created on Palestinian land in 1947, and that Palestinian titles of land were simply "voided" to make room for Jews, I would have to sympathize with the Palestinians.  If I were Palestinian, I would be a "rock-throwing patriot" too.  Regardless, I think everyone can agree that there will be no peaceful solution anytime soon.

[(:|)]

What rubbish!  The Palestinians were living all over the area, including Jordan, who doesn't want them, Lebanon, who doesn't want them, and Syria, who also doesn't want them.  They don't epitomize oppression.  Several years ago, the Israeli's  offered everything the Palestinians had been asking for and were greeted with more violence.  That is why Sharon was elected.  Israel tried to negotiate with them and got screwed, so the Israeli people elected someone who wouldn't take their crap.

Sounds to me like anti-Semitism.

Judea.

OK, I have a philosophical disagreement with you about whether or not the Jews are oppressing the Palestinians and you say I'm an anti-Semite.

Let's see... I disagree with you, and you label me a racist.  Where have I heard that before?  Oh yeah, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, etc...

[(:|)]

Oh, yeah, I even said I prefer Jews to Muslims and I'm "Anti-Semite".  Whatever.

He made a leap.
Don't be guilty of the same.

I'm not calling him anything because I don't know him, I'm simply defending myself from the serious implication of being an "Anti-Semite".  I take claims like that seriously.

[(:|)]

He didn't call you one.
He said that some of what you're saying "Sounds to me like anti-Semitism".
There's a big difference.
When it [b][i]seems[/i][/b] that someone is bending over backwards to see the Palestinian side of things, often times they do so out of an irrational dislike of the jews.
Why else do we ignore facts, other than to feed our bias?
Sometimes it's anti-semitism, sometimes it ain't.

Whatever P.S. I guess you're all for giving back the U.S. to the Native Americans?
[B]Peace loving like Sharon?  Why yes, he's very peace-loving.[/B]
No peace loving like Barak. He failed...Why? Because he was stupid enough to think you could trade off land for peace. The Palestinians don't want peace ...remember? Why you defend these animals is beyond me. The Palestinian cheers were deafening Sept. 11. They'll probably make it a religious holiday or something.

[

I am sure that the Palestinians have a point. I am equally sure that the Israelis do.

The only real issue here is that what the Israelis are doing is not working. The reason it's an issue is that we are about to follow the same failed policy.

You people are caught up in a useless arguement.........and.......don`t include bin laden in a disagreement about isreal vs palestine.........open your minds...read your bible.........[argue]

Political Science you have fallen for the trick.  The 'Paletinians' of to day are not the original inhabitants of the land the Nation of Isreal sits on or the decendants of them.

16% of Isreal's voting population is Arab.  It used to be more before they fled in preparation for the attempted destruction of Isreal in the late 1960's.  Isreal is a western nation and defends herself like we used to.  Planerench out.

Point?

This is interesting.  Pray tell, who are they and where did they come from?

To get back to the question of the bulldozing...

This policy of COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBLITY is no different than what the Nazis did in Yugoslavia (in particular). What a great model for the Israelis to follow. Going after THE FAMILIES of the partisans didn't work there and it won't for Israel. In fact it created a practically endless number of new recruits DESPITE THE CONSEQUENCES, and bogged down an enourmous number of german troops throughout the war, desperately needed elsewhere.

Now, retaliating against the terrorists is necessary for many reasons. They should be killed, wiped-out, eliminated. But this policy even leaving the morality of it aside is just counterproductive.



Yes. In fact the West Bank WAS PART OF JORDAN in '67. The people living there then are still there now. The Jordanian administration was replaced with an Israeli one. As I saw Netanyahu put it while ago, "the king lost half his nation." Even Sharon has said that they can get along with (and respect) the Jordanians under the old and new King... why not turn it back over to them. It has a legal basis. Arafat is an unreasonable kook and far too set in his ways to end this. Arabs don't get blamed the same way for dealing with their own, and if something goes wrong the IDF could always bomb Amman. My solution anyway.

Well said.  Punishing some people for the actions of others simply does not work.  In many cases, the people living in those houses are dirt poor, and the houses are literally all they have.  When they are demolished, the inhabitants are left with... nothing.... and all they have left to lose is... nothing.  Israel's policy of demolishing homes will simply guarantee an endless supply of recruits to the cause of the terrorists.

Morally speaking, this policy is also reprehensible and unworthy of a civilized nation like Israel.  It is ironic that in this very land, according to the Old Testament, it was decided that it was better for a hundred guilty men to go free than for a single innocent man to be harmed.

The whole area is a big mess.  I agree that Arafat has got to go.  I think Israel should:

Simply terminate the existence of the Palestine Authority.
Invade and completely reoccupy the whole West Bank.
Hunt down and eliminate the Hamas, with foot soldiers, not with fancy helicopter rocketry.
Once the territory is pacified, turn around and address the root causes of the conflict, including the land grabs of Palestinian land that have clearly occurred.  The Palestinians have had land taken from them that they have lived on for centuries.  To expect them, or any people, to simply sit quiet and do nothing is to expect too much.  If Israel does not understand this simple fact, it is condemned to indefinite violence.

"The Liberty was a mistake."

Somewhere, someplace in this vast world of ours there must be some idiot who will believe you.

I am not that idiot.

"Israel had no responsibility."

Here you make a flat statement.  No maybe, could have, might have...just a flat statement.

See above.

Please, please do not bother clarifying any more "facts."

Shalom!

Jews in Israel have learned that you cannot react to aggression with appeasement.

They meet it head on.

I think the U.S has learned this lesson also, or is in the process of learning it.

He who fights the hardest for the longest will win, and the victor will write the history.

Any sympathy I had for the Palistinian muslims is buried under the rubble of the WTC.  Unfair, perhaps. But true none the less.

I guess I must have lost count of the Palestenians in the planes that hit the WTC, the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania crash.
As I recall all but three were Arabians but I probably am just confused.

[smoke]

What is the nickname of the Israeli Prime Minister ?