I've been thinking about what contrived, bs incident the administration is going to use to justify invading Iraq.  Sort of a Gulf of Tonkin incident for 2003, if you will.  Every day, F-15s and F-16s patrol those idiotic (and illegal) "no fly" zones in hopes that an Iraqi SAM will bring down one of them and then there will be an "act of war" worthy of an invasion. Nice. I hope our brave Air Force personnel understand that their up there to play Russian Roulette.  If I were in the service right now, I'd be ducking and covering so as not to become the unfortunate one who has to get killed so the war can begin.

So what do you think?  What will it be this time?  The way I see it, the buildup can only lead to one thing, but the hawks have a real credibility problem that they need to solve. They've been bombing the hell out of air defense sites every day for weeks now, but it's going to take something relatively big to act as the catalyst for the war.  Will a scud missile hit Isreal?  Will a US ship be attacked (shades of Viet Nam)?  Special Forces units are already reported to have crossed the border.  Aside from preparing opposition forces, perhaps they are tasked with creating the necessary incident.  A scud into Israel would do it for sure.  

By the way, I don't like Saddam Hussein, but I think this war business is complete horseshit from start to finish and is totally unnecessary and only feeds the ambitions and agendas of a few key players who are going to profit at the expense of regular Americans and Iraqis.  It's sick, and I hate this feeling of dissonance between being a good American and supporting my country (by which I mean the government), but watching that loyalty get exploited every time.  

Hardly.

[brick]

That's not at all what I said.  I said that you sign the contract with your eyes open.  Deserve was never the word used.  Stop trying to hijack a legitimate thread just because you are embarrased by the topic and doubt your own loyalty to such a dubious cause which has nothing at all to do with our national defense.

You sound like a broken record...[rolleyes]

ok, i will play.

A USS. Cole like incident sounds good to me.
but it can't be exactly like the Cole of Main because of the higher level of force that surrounds our warships.  

so it needs to be an attack on a civilian area  or a military position with a weak defense  it must be designed to spread fear, kill about 100 people preferably on US soil and be so graphic and horrendous that the American people will DEMAND a counter attack.  

who what where when why.

who - osama bin laden
what - attack
where - Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington, DC
when - as soon as out troops are properly positioned in the middle east.
why - they are the bad guy's

[stick] [slap] [pound] [nuts] [noclue] [chair] [buttkick] [booze] [banghead]

i forgot How

how - big boom!
spiced with a little anthrax just as a garnish.

I still don't understand how an obvious troll has gotten up to 1600 posts.

I'm was guessing that if UN weapons inspectors were to be hassled or find weapons of mass destruction, that could be grounds to start bombing, but not occupation.  On the other hand, they've had since '96 to hide and bury any bio or chemical weapons, and they have enough to not make any more in obvious ways.  If the inspectors find anything, it's out of pure stupidity or ignorance of the Iraqis.

I think good amount of the public expect a big showdown in the desert, but I'm expecting some real nasty urban warfare.  History has proved that no force, no matter how well trained or equipped, is ever completely prepared for operating in an urban environment.  Every situation has it's variables, but you can never know too much about urban fighting.

A troll is someone with only a few posts, I've been visiting ar15.com a lot longer than you 82ndAbn, unless you went by a different name or something.  

My neighbors and family are not conspiring against me.  Once again, you try to divert the thread.  You're just a bully, a little man.  

I've been paying attention the last 10 years, and I don't see any reason why Iraq is a bigger threat today than at any time in the past.  In fact, all through the 1970s and '80s, Iraq was a US "ally."  I have photos of things like Cobra attack helicopters lined up on the tarmac of an Iraqi airfield, painted with their camo and flag symbols.  Who do you think made Saddam who he is today?  The Middle East was a dumping group for US and Soviet weapons.  But why is it so important to do this NOW?  Is it because they desperately fear a nuclear armed Iraq?

Hey 82nd, are you referring to the post where Kaoma called a Marine a "dumb grunt dying in a war for oil" or someting like that?

Maybe the war will start when an Iraqi nuclear device is detonated in Times Square.

Since you obviously don't see the value and national importance of this event, you will never be convinced that any action isn't 'bs'.



Illegal according to who?  You?  Saddam?  Would you be protesting "no-fly" zones if NATO or the UN set them up over California, because George W. Bush decided to start bombing the cities because they didn't vote for him?  Of course not.  You would think they are a great idea.



You aren't half the man that any serviceman is.  These folks are WILLING to risk their lives to protect national interests, and promote freedom.  You bitch and moan.



Credibility problem?  The only credibility problem I see is the one that you share with all those limp-wristed, liberal, imbicles.



Are you suggesting that any of these events would NOT be a "legitimate" trigger?  Are you nuts?



Oh sure!  You spineless fools always SAY that.  I'm starting to believe that they and you really DO like him, but don't want to lose the last miniscule shred of your credibility.



Who is going to profit?  Be specific and list your justifications.  These stupid statements were tossed around 11 years ago, and none of it ever proved to be true, in fact, the opposite happened.



Huh?  Having painfully read your posts for a couple years now, I have trouble remembering even one occasion in which you have been loyal to the government.

Good American?  Sheesh!  Who would've guessed that by looking through your post history?

[rolleyes]

Well, considering that Iraq has suddenly gone from inviting the weapons inspectors in, to inviting the CIA to participate in the inspection, to declaring the weapons inspectors as spies. I think the weapons inspectors are getting real close all of a sudden.

Iraq will claim the UN weapons are spies for Israel/US, and start not cooperating. They will then throw the inspectors out. The UN will chew on this for a few weeks, Saddam's Arab leader colleagues will up the pressure for him to step down, and Saddam will snap under the pressure and start something.

Is the war necessary? Nope. All Saddam has to do is prove compliance with the cease fire agreement he agreed to. Can he do so? Yup. Will he, nope.

Is this fight over oil? Nope. Oil is cheap now, and there are larger cheaper sources readily available. The "its for oil" argument doesn't pass the financial or logistics test.

I don't agree with trickshot, but its sort of getting old that anyone with an unpopular belief is labeled as a troll.  he's been posting on this board for a long time now, and yet he states his beliefs and he's labeled a troll.  

The last time I checked a troll is someone who makes inflammatory commenst only to offend.  trickshot makes rational legitimate arguements in his post.  You may not like nor agree with him, but that doesn't make him a troll.  This is suppost to be a place for the exchange of ideas, not agree with the popular sentiment or your a troll.  

If something like that ever came to pass, and I doubt it would, you would then be faced with a really ugly question.  The question would be, did America provoke such an attack with this misguided military buildup?  After all, Bush is promoting pre-emptive war, why shouldn't Iraq strike the first crippling blow?  There will be a cost to this coming war, one way or the other.  My point is that it does not have to be this way and I don't think Iraq has those kinds of resources.  US policy is severely out of whack and hypocritical.

If it's going to be a war of Islam vs. the west, then the we had better consider what it will be like if the west loses.  Look at the Korean war--the Chinese and North Koreans had no technology, just wave after human wave to throw at NATO forces.  Now, US troops have occupied the Korean peninsula for 40 years.  That is what it will be like in the Middle East, too.  If they don't want to act civilized, then we ought to use the billions to be spent on war on finding an alternative to their damn oil and tell them to fuck off.  Make oil a worthless commodity.  Americans and Europeans made the damn sheiks and Saddam rich.  Adding fuel to the fire and continuing to let them hold this one resource over our heads is a huge mistake.    

I can understand why I'm not liked on this board, but sometime, someplace, these questions have to be asked and discussed without name calling and all the usual "shut down the debate and damn the torpedoes" nonsense.  I won't even go into why I distrust and dislike government, it's obvious to anyone why that is.  The government isn't the people and isn't doing right by us.  I drew 82nd's ire because I said something along the lines of:  The government has always screwed over veterans and anyone else that it was embarrassed by or found it no longer had any use for.  True or not true?  So don't shoot the messenger.  

 

There already is a war between Islam and the West. It has been going on for years. WTC in 93 and 01, USS Cole, Beirut, the embassies in Africa, etc. Their objective is to either kill us all or force us to convert to a radical Islamic state. The only question is whether we will fight it. Lucky for us, they don't have the ability to do much real harm to us right now, but that could change if Sadaam or some other Islamic dictator does build nuclear weapons.

How do you propose to find an alternative to their oil? Or to make oil a worthless commodity? No matter what happens to the market, oil still fuels the economy of the West, and they still have a good percent of all the oil in the world. There is no alternative to oil.

Relax guys. Trickshot isn't for real. I think it's McUzi to tell you the truth! [;)]

You're sick in the head, right?  You will equate a military build-up with the nuclear destruction of millions of innocent people?  Troll on you little ass pumping hippy queer.

Do you think we deserve 9/11?  Let your beliefs be known here, asshole.



So you agree that Iraq has the capability to use weapons of mass destruction?  I think you just proved Bush's point.  Damn assclown.




Protecting US interests is nowhere near hypocritical.  Expain what you mean without just spewing uneducated words around.



Dreaming of the day, aren't you?



Not really, since there is no worry about "waves" of Chinese soldiers coming to the aid of Iraq.  Any help from other countries will be crushed as we did in Afghanistan.


We agree on something.  I'm disappointed.    



You're not asking legitimate questions by prefacing them with:


That's why we aptly call you a troll.  

You don't have to worry about that.  They're not accepting Assclowns right now.

IF? What do you mean IF? Hello! McFly..[stick]Islamic fundamentalists have already declared war on Western civilization. They have clearly stated over and over again that they will not rest until the west has been destroyed and all others have converted to Islam. (P.S. The West includes the United States). If they have not already declared war on us, what do you consider the 93 bombing, the USS Cole, Kenya, Tanzania, the French oil tanker, Beirut, and countless other terrorist acts against Western nations. We're already at war partner. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Wake up!! The reason why you're not liked is not because of your dissenting opinion. Its because you have berated members of our Armed Forces, calling them morons and ignorant. Even going as far as saying they deserve to die if they die in a war for oil. That's why you're despised by myself and others. Personally, after the comments you've made about our servicemen and women, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. I don't care whether you are for or against this war as long as you present your argument in a manner which does not insult the men and women who have died protecting your right to be able to voice that opinion.

What incident?  I think trickshot's head will finally explode from all the BS crammed into it.  The government will rightly discern this is a biological warfare attack but blame it on Iraq by mistake.

Specific to Iraq, GW has made it clear that this is about WMD. Personally, I would like to see the proof on that allegation.

As for Saddam, the world would be better off without him. I just don't like the idea that our gov't can't or won't simply say that and get on with it.

If the west is already at war, then it is losing quite badly.  I don't buy it.  Iraq is a secular nation, not Islamic, first off.  Plus, if the US is truly in a war for its survival, there would not be money being spent on pork barrel nonsense like the Farm Bill that passed a couple months ago. There would also be a clear war declaration, with clear milestones and a cost to losing.  So either our government is totally incompetent, or it is blowing a bunch of smoke up our collective ass.  Likely both.  Isn't it really true that the war on terror is a political tool, meant to replace the Cold War in an effort to continue justifying the expense of a huge amounts of military spending?  



Your first sentence is correct, but the rest was never said by me.  I said things like "keep your head down" and "oil isn't worth getting killed for" which are quite different than what you suggest.  There are no atheists in foxholes, only statists and fundamentalists.    



This part cheeses me off.  Indoctrination is so evil! You don't value my opinion at all, it makes you uncomfortable.  Who died since maybe the Revolution of 1776 so I could have the right to free speech?  And what good is that right if whenever I try to use it, I get attacked?  Fuck you and your vicious, warmongering ways. You have become the enemy of freedom, because of the very act of trying to become its exclusive protector.  I didn't ask anyone to die for me and I never would and it is wrong for people to justify waging a war based on the faulty assumption that they are doing it for the good of all Americans.  What bullshit.  I have a bridge in NYC to sell you, too.  Destroying Iraq does not equal protecting free speech in America.  If that is insulting, too fucking bad.        

It's like if you went to a restaurant and they immediately brought you a meal that you didn't order, forced it down your throat, and then made you to pay the bill at gunpoint. Gee, thanks so much.  The fact that it might have been nutritious is completely beside the point!  You guys are defending freedom?  Whose freedom?  Where?  Freedom isn't something you cram down someone else's throat.    

I'm willing to bet that if many of the people who died in past wars could see what a sad bunch of contradictions their countrymen havebecome today, they'd be mighty pissed off about it.  Mighty pissed off.  They bought into (or more likely, were forced into) a romanticized religious vision, and suffered for it and learned too late that an unreachable ideal is all it ever was.  Statism is just another type of fundamentalist religion.        

At the end of the first Gulf War, the weapon inspectors proved that Iraq had 8 tons of nerve gas that was unaccounted for, found samples of scrapped artillery shells that tested positive for VX gas, was 6 months away from making an atomic bomb, found photographs of people who had been experimented on with biological agents, etc.  Where did that stuff go?  You think Iraq destroyed that nerve gas because they are nice guys?  If they did destory it, why is it unaccounted for?  That's enough nerve gas to kill every person on this planet.  

Saddamn Huessin has violated the cease fire of the first Gulf War.  There is no need for an "incident" to justify a war, there has been need of a war for a long time.  

TO qualify my statements, I am almost certain to get deployed.  I started recieving my vaccinations and I am a Military Police officer which is what the Army is going to call up.  Try calling me a dumbass Trickshot like you called that Marine on the other thread a dumbass.  I'll even meet you anywhere you want in AZ if you want to say it to my face.

First off, perhaps you should reread my post instead of making [b]ASS[/b]umptions. I clearly stated that Islamic fundamemntalists have declared war on the Western world. Nowhere did I mention Iraq.



Interesting little rant. Perhaps you should reread my previous posts before flying off the handle. Nowhere in my previous points did I disagree with your opinion. On the contrary, I too believe that a war with Iraq is not the answer. Not for the reasons you stated, but I disagree with attacking Iraq none the less.



Interesting. So now I'm a fuckin vicious war monger. You have an interesting and wild imagination. Please show me where in my previous posts I advocated war with Iraq. Oh, by the way, do you always resort to personal attacks on people out who happen to not share your opinion?



Here you go again making wild assumptions based on statements I never made. Where in my previous posts did I equate the preservation of free speech with attacking Iraq? You really need to do something about all these tinfoil hat conspiracies that you so firmly believe in. At the very least you should actually read and try and understand people's posts before jumping to all sorts of conclusions and wild assumptions...

P.S. If I can present my argument in a cohesive and intelligent matter without having to resort to insults and personal attacks, at the very least you should try and be equally considerate in the future.

Guardin,

He did indeed say that as well as some other choice words about our servicemen and women. Don't worry, as quite a few arfcomers remember exactly what he said.

Personaly, I don't consider him worth the effort of a reply to his brain dead opinion.

Excellent strategy. No ammount of debate or argument will change his mind until he wants it changed. I say we let him rant and rave in his own little, imagined world.

Declaring the "no fly zones" as idiotic and illegal qualifies as reaching cranial vacuum status.

Thanks for reminding me what my father always used to tell me....

"NEVER ARGUE WITH WOMEN, CHILDREN OR IDIOTS"

We know you WISH that were so.  Thankfully for us here in reality, it is not.

Looks like you hit the trifecta with trickshot.

Actually, I rather enjoy goading him. His warped sense of reality fascinates and amuses me to no end.[whacko] Not to mention the fact that it reinforces my own sense of sanity.. Besides, I'm trying to find out the color of the sky in his little world...[:D]

OK, now that we've agreed to stop arguing can we get back to the original topic?

I think the trigger will be, continued violations of the UN imposed inspections. As well as more discrepancies in the reports of the WMD.

We've already been attacked.........

The events of 09-11 should have been enough for any American

TS you should post those endearing thoughts about your veteran countrymen on a big placard and stand outside the mains gates of Camp LeJeune and Ft. Bragg..after that (if there is anything left) go down to one of the VA hospitals and parade around the paralyzed ward or the blind ward or better yet go down to the prosthesis lab...
And when you are done there...head down to Ft. Sam Houston and Brooke Army Medical Centers burn wards...do it after the war has been going on for a few months so you can tell those boys "How they signed on the bottom line".....

Of course dont tell it to the drafties...
Yep the Revolutionary War wasnt fought and won by your kind...they just sit back and let other  do the dirty work for them...and then collect all the bennies that a "Free Society" has to offer....of course paid for by somebody elses blood sweat and their moms tears...
PS the colleges were full of your kind after Vietnam...and I heard that Gulf of Tonkin crap a thousand times...and it still dont wash...
The commies love spewing it though...they still do I see....

I don't see any advantage of going to war. I think foreign policy should be exercised one (or two) un-marked bomb at a time. If they want to play dirty,I think we should too.

I don't care if the "trigger" is that Laura didn't give GWB any action the night before. Let's just go in and DO it already....

and then on to North Korea....


and Cuba.....


and China....

It's so truly hilarious that dicklessshot's rantings are very predictable and very DU.

It claims to be a gun owner, but I remained convinced that it is a troll from DU whose only delight in life is to hide behind it's keyboard and insult not only the members of this board, but all those, myself included, who have served this country protecting it's right to be a fool.  It would never say this crap to any past or current serviceman's face.

LOL. Neither would trickshot. He's the quintessential keyboard commando. He only grows a set of gonads when he's safely and anonymously behind his keyboard.....

And someone just hit the nail on the head....

The UN report that says they found nothing will be cause for the declaration of "Material Breach"...'cause we know sadam has wmd's

***************edited to say*******************


and trickshot is a putz.