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Posted: 8/26/2015 2:00:36 PM EDT
So the thread on learning to fly, owning and maintaining a P-51 got me thinking.

What's an easier and more forgiving plane to fly, the P-51 or F-15?

I've heard a lot about how difficult old prop war birds can be to fly, because of the massive amounts of torque and tail dragging landing gear, but never really hear much about modern jets.

How does an F-15, or even an F-16 compare as far as difficulty of flying to a P-51?
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:08:35 PM EDT
They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?

Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:09:40 PM EDT
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?
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Women flew the P-51.  
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:10:19 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Women flew the P-51.  
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?


Women flew the P-51.  



Dammit!!!


Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:10:43 PM EDT
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?

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Have you sat behind an F-15 with its blinker on for 50 miles?
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:12:38 PM EDT
P-51 would be my guess.... The advanced avionics in the F-15 prevent you from tearing the plane apart, if you black out and loose the controls will level the plane on autopilot, radar to prevent mid-air collisions, and Jet > Prop
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:13:22 PM EDT
The P15 ftw
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:14:34 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Have you sat behind an F-15 with its blinker on for 50 miles?
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Quoted:
They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?


Have you sat behind an F-15 with its blinker on for 50 miles?


Lol also FPNI
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:21:38 PM EDT
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:23:00 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Women flew the P-51.  
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?


Women flew the P-51.  


Yes, but those WASP's  knew how to drag their tails, They were taught to fly by "StearMEN". The USAF doesn't allow F-15/16 womenz to drag tail. The dragging of tail is no longer politically correct.

The Merlin in the P-51 at high power settings produces an euphoric vibration that sometimes interferes with female pilot concentration.

Things are different now since they have changed.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:23:38 PM EDT
Systems aside, the P-51 would be harder to fly because of these factors:

Torque
Slipstream Effect
P-Factor
Gyroscopic Effect
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:23:45 PM EDT
Fly or fight ?
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:25:06 PM EDT
I would say the F-15 would be easier to fly.

Betcha anything a member will chime in that has had stick time in both aircraft that can give you a real assessment.
This place amazes me sometimes.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:28:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:30:47 PM EDT

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Why were the old birds prefixed with a P?

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p= Pursuit

 
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:37:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:38:34 PM EDT
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?

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Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:39:52 PM EDT
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Fly or fight ?
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This. My friends who fly F-16's say that most competent pilots can fly the "teen jets" around the pattern with little training. It's the missions that get the workload up to the high end of the spectrum.

So, again, the P-51 would be tougher.

TC
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:40:53 PM EDT
I only flew a F-15 on a flight simulator. I was splashing bogeys like it was going out of style.

YMMV
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:44:05 PM EDT
Pursuit.  Holdover from the WWI days when the first fighters chased off artillery spotter planes
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:45:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:


This. My friends who fly F-16's say that most competent pilots can fly the "teen jets" around the pattern with little training. It's the missions that get the workload up to the high end of the spectrum.

So, again, the P-51 would be tougher.

TC
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Fly or fight ?


This. My friends who fly F-16's say that most competent pilots can fly the "teen jets" around the pattern with little training. It's the missions that get the workload up to the high end of the spectrum.

So, again, the P-51 would be tougher.

TC


Great answer and great info.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:48:20 PM EDT
In my limited experience, props are ALWAYS harder to fly than jets

but....

When you're a jet you're a jet al the way......
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:49:52 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Systems aside, the P-51 would be harder to fly because of these factors:

Torque
Slipstream Effect
P-Factor
Gyroscopic Effect
View Quote


More or less this.  P-51 by far.  F-15 has computers to help with inherent aircraft instability.  Not to mention all the other things that have been stated - computers such as FADEC likely control engine parameters in the F-15

Tailwheel is going to be harder since the ass end is always trying to pass the front end whenever you're on the ground - center of gravity is behind the main landing gear.

That said, as far as ability to learn the aircraft, IMHO the P-51 would be easier.  In any modern fighter, you're going to have a LOT of systems to master.  P-51 learning curve will take a big jump before flattening out as the basics are quite similar to any other tailwheel aircraft like an Aviat Husky or a Piper Cub.  The F-15 will be relatively flat until the systems are mastered, then it'll spike tremendously.

TL;DR: P-51 will be harder to fly because the aircraft is inherently unstable and no on-board computers (except the pilot) to assist in stability.  F-15 will be easier to fly, but takes longer to learn the systems.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 5:38:23 PM EDT
F15 would be much easier. There is no way I would  let a guy with no tailwheel experience fly my C-180, let alone a P-51.  The T38 is  harder to fly than the F15, Mustang would be much more difficult than either.






Link Posted: 8/26/2015 5:48:30 PM EDT
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Quoted:
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.
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I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 5:54:52 PM EDT
I have never flown a jet.

I do have over 1500 hours of tail wheel time including J3, Stearman, PT-22, and T-6, and of course my RV-3.



I feel comfortable flying the T-6, and every P-51 pilot I've talked to has told me that the T-6 is harder to fly than the P-51.



Personally, I would feel more confident flying the P-51 than trying figure out how to even start the F15.....



 

I have been in the back seat of three different P-51's though.

I'm in the back seat of this one going over our shooting campsite....







 
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:01:26 PM EDT
Both will kill you quick without the proper training....

I think it's a tie !!
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:01:54 PM EDT
No shit story....My ex boss, an O6(full Colonel) was an F-15E pilot.  Guessing only an O5 then.   He was stationed at Seymour Johnson when the 1st Gulf war happened.  He was a Sq commander at the time.   He was one of the last guys to go through conversion training from F4s to F15s.   He deployed soon after return from training.   1st day of the war the head guy, forget what position he was, Group commander or something, was shot down  Col Ebberly.    So the guy who would later be my boss took over his job.

Fast forward....war ended and he returned home.   His first sortie back home at Seymour Johnson was to give some incentive rides for someone.   Normally he has a WSO in the back seat but because he was giving incentive rides he had unqualified people on the pit.  On engine start he could not figure out how to turn on the radios.    Too much GeeWiz electronic stuff that the WSO always handled.

So while flying an F-15 might not seem so hard it's all the systems that take some time.   Trust me there are a lot of buttons around the displays.

The other issue with P-51 vs F-15 is speed and how fast things happen.  At the faster speeds things happen rather quickly and the pilot has to think ahead of the jet.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:02:19 PM EDT
Kermit doesn't have much trouble with the P-51:







Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:12:47 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.



The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/90-internal-fuel-system  

This is one of the many reasons why the F-15 would be easier to fly than a P-51.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:16:56 PM EDT
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Quoted:



The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/90-internal-fuel-system  

This is one of the many reasons why the F-15 would be easier to fly than a P-51.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.



The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/90-internal-fuel-system  

This is one of the many reasons why the F-15 would be easier to fly than a P-51.


hmmmmmmmmmmm.

well you did it for a living (I assume), so I can't argue your point.

I will simply state that every automatic system can fail at some point.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:19:31 PM EDT
My cousin was a pilot in the ROK Air Force back in the 70's.
He trained on some prop plane and then went on to fly F5 and F4.
They way he described it to me was that he flew the prop plane while he managed the jets.

Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:19:46 PM EDT
I would argue the p51 would be easier to fly, and certainly easier to employ.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:22:17 PM EDT
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Women flew the P-51.  
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They let women fly F-15's so how hard can it be?


Women flew the P-51.  



Yep, About 6 years ago I met and talked to a W.A.C. member.  She was a fascinating woman.  Boy did she have stores.  She shuttled all kinds of different AC around the country and later to England.  With no protection whatsoever!  I really wish I had recorded our conversations,  she was so happy to tell her story to someone who would listen.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:24:11 PM EDT
Due to a rare and unique coincidence I had the chance to fly a lockheed F15 simulator, the full sim, 180 degree shell screen, full cockpit, complete control package. It's the sim the pilots train and sometimes do some certifications in according to the lockheed rep.

With no pilots license but some time in boeing 747 Sims, a desktop flight sim with simulated controls and about 1/4 of the hours to a private license,I was able to start, take off, fly around, do acrobatics, and land safely the F15 sim.

I flew a P51  desktop sim and had a harder time with it. The f15 seemed very smooth and controllable compared to the p51. But who knows how accurate the desktop sim is?

It's apples to oranges to monkeys but my guess is the 51 is more of a handful to fly
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:30:04 PM EDT
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P-51 would be my guess.... The advanced avionics in the F-15 prevent you from tearing the plane apart, if you black out and loose the controls will level the plane on autopilot, radar to prevent mid-air collisions, and Jet > Prop
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No, no and no.

F-15s do NOT have over-G prevention so yes you CAN tear them apart.  If you black out you will end up being a charred mess at the bottom of a very large smoking hole.  Radar is used for weapons deliver only, there's no such thing as collision avoidance other than the pilot.

Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:35:00 PM EDT

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Quoted:


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.
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Quoted:


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.


wtf are you babbling bout?


Quoted:


The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.



its not "automatic" you set the switches to which pump you want running.

they only automatcally turn on when the mains are low
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:36:36 PM EDT
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hmmmmmmmmmmm.

well you did it for a living (I assume), so I can't argue your point.

I will simply state that every automatic system can fail at some point.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.



The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/90-internal-fuel-system  

This is one of the many reasons why the F-15 would be easier to fly than a P-51.


hmmmmmmmmmmm.

well you did it for a living (I assume), so I can't argue your point.

I will simply state that every automatic system can fail at some point.


I should send in my DD-214.

As all electronic and mechanical systems of course they can fail but the FTS system on the F-15C/D (I never worked on a F-15E) was pretty robust.

I did not work on the fuel transfer system directly but I did work on the FQI (Fuel Quantity Indicator) system which reported the amount of fuel in each tank to the computers and the cockpit indicator.

I can only remember 1 failure with the Fuel Transfer System (but it was not my department so maybe I ignored them automatically). I remember many nights replacing the FQI sensors (or troubleshooting the wiring) however.  


Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:37:58 PM EDT
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I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.
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wtf are you babbling bout?



Just figured fuel transfer is important for any airplane.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:38:16 PM EDT

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wtf are you babbling bout?
its not "automatic" you set the switches to which pump you want running.



they only automatcally turn on when the mains are low
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Quoted:





Quoted:





I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.




wtf are you babbling bout?






Quoted:





The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.







its not "automatic" you set the switches to which pump you want running.



they only automatcally turn on when the mains are low




 
Yes sylvan... What is the f15 boldface?
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:41:33 PM EDT
The P-51 had very quirky take off pitch issues due to the central/rear mounted fuel tank.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:41:47 PM EDT
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  Yes sylvan... What is the f15 boldface?
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Quoted:

Quoted:


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.


wtf are you babbling bout?


Quoted:


The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.



its not "automatic" you set the switches to which pump you want running.

they only automatcally turn on when the mains are low

  Yes sylvan... What is the f15 boldface?


?  I don't know what "the f15 boldface" is.

As i stated, I don't fuck all about this flying stuff.

I flew a beach bonanza once with tip tanks.  we had to keep on eye on those.

balancing an aircraft with multiple fuel tanks should be important across the board.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:42:45 PM EDT
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No shit story....My ex boss, an O6(full Colonel) was an F-15E pilot.  Guessing only an O5 then.   He was stationed at Seymour Johnson when the 1st Gulf war happened.  He was a Sq commander at the time.   He was one of the last guys to go through conversion training from F4s to F15s.   He deployed soon after return from training.   1st day of the war the head guy, forget what position he was, Group commander or something, was shot down  Col Ebberly.    So the guy who would later be my boss took over his job.

Fast forward....war ended and he returned home.   His first sortie back home at Seymour Johnson was to give some incentive rides for someone.   Normally he has a WSO in the back seat but because he was giving incentive rides he had unqualified people on the pit.  On engine start he could not figure out how to turn on the radios.    Too much GeeWiz electronic stuff that the WSO always handled.

So while flying an F-15 might not seem so hard it's all the systems that take some time.   Trust me there are a lot of buttons around the displays.

The other issue with P-51 vs F-15 is speed and how fast things happen.  At the faster speeds things happen rather quickly and the pilot has to think ahead of the jet.
View Quote


I'm reading "Sled Driver" by SR-71 pilot Brian Shul. He writes at length about the complexity of the RSO's job in the SR-71 and that he had no idea how complicated it was until his RSO put him in the back seat of the simulator for an hour.

He also talks about how stressful flying that plane could be. He rarely looked out the window, he was constantly reading gauges and making adjustments. He turned off the guage lights to take in all the stars for a few moments during a training flight and hints at feeling irresponsible for doing so, never did it again. He also felt the RSO was really missing out because he stays so busy he never gets a chance to look out his small windows in back.

The part that made me laugh was when the heat in his space suit went out. He was alright with the cold but his hands were getting numb, then he remembered the glass gets up to 550 degrees so just held his hands up to the cockpit windows.

Sounds like a kickass ride either way. Cruising along at 2,200 MPH sounds like a good time.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:42:53 PM EDT
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No, no and no.

F-15s do NOT have over-G prevention so yes you CAN tear them apart.  If you black out you will end up being a charred mess at the bottom of a very large smoking hole.  Radar is used for weapons deliver only, there's no such thing as collision avoidance other than the pilot.

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P-51 would be my guess.... The advanced avionics in the F-15 prevent you from tearing the plane apart, if you black out and loose the controls will level the plane on autopilot, radar to prevent mid-air collisions, and Jet > Prop


No, no and no.

F-15s do NOT have over-G prevention so yes you CAN tear them apart.  If you black out you will end up being a charred mess at the bottom of a very large smoking hole.  Radar is used for weapons deliver only, there's no such thing as collision avoidance other than the pilot.




Oh come on AL-BOB surely you remember the days of a crew chief taking a magnet and clearing that orange ball in the front gear ASP panel?



AL-BOB is correct the F-15 over-G system consisted of Bitching Betty yelling "over-G" to the pilot and a little ball turning orange so we (ground people) would know the jet was over-G'd.

Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:44:44 PM EDT
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I should send in my DD-214.

As all electronic and mechanical systems of course they can fail but the FTS system on the F-15C/D (I never worked on a F-15E) was pretty robust.

I did not work on the fuel transfer system directly but   I did work on the FQI (Fuel Quantity Indicator) system which reported the amount of fuel in each tank to the computers and the cockpit indicator.
I can only remember 1 failure with the Fuel Transfer System (but it was not my department so maybe I ignored them automatically). I remember many nights replacing the FQI sensors (or troubleshooting the wiring) however.  


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you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.



The F-15 Fuel Transfer System (computers) did this automatically with the ability to manually over-ride.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/90-internal-fuel-system  

This is one of the many reasons why the F-15 would be easier to fly than a P-51.


hmmmmmmmmmmm.

well you did it for a living (I assume), so I can't argue your point.

I will simply state that every automatic system can fail at some point.


I should send in my DD-214.

As all electronic and mechanical systems of course they can fail but the FTS system on the F-15C/D (I never worked on a F-15E) was pretty robust.

I did not work on the fuel transfer system directly but   I did work on the FQI (Fuel Quantity Indicator) system which reported the amount of fuel in each tank to the computers and the cockpit indicator.
I can only remember 1 failure with the Fuel Transfer System (but it was not my department so maybe I ignored them automatically). I remember many nights replacing the FQI sensors (or troubleshooting the wiring) however.  




B-Shop for the WIN!  

"Excuse me, Mr Crew Chief, you say you defueld AND depuddled it?  Sorry, that's not what I asked you to do.  So now you'll need to fill it completely up then defuel it again, this time without the depuddle.  Then, after I'm done doing the Low Calibration you'll need to refuel it again so I can do the High Calibration."

Only thing better than that is telling the bubble chaser to change the Right Stab Actuator, if that doesn't fix it you'll need to change the Left Stab Actuator.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:47:22 PM EDT
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I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.
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Quoted:
you have a much higher management workload with a P-51.

you have to manage the throttle, the Prop, the Mixture, the waste gate for the charger, the movement of fuel between the various tanks, and still have situational awareness of what is going on around you. you have to be wary of shock cooling the cylinders in a dive. The only computer is you.


I don't know fuck all about this shit but I know for a fact that if you don't do the bold in an F15, you are going to have a bad day.


I don't know how it is accomplished in an F-15, if you have to manually select tanks and pump stuff, or if the computer will do it to keep everything optimized.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:48:05 PM EDT
Pretty sure I could get into a mustang and start it up and get off the runway just fine.


Have no idea how to even begin prepping the f15 for flight lol.

 
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:48:41 PM EDT
The better question is which one would be more fun?
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:48:43 PM EDT
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Oh come on AL-BOB surely you remember the days of a crew chief taking a magnet and clearing that orange ball in the front gear ASP panel?



AL-BOB is correct the F-15 over-G system consisted of Bitching Betty yelling "over-G" to the pilot and a little ball turning orange so we (ground people) would know the jet was over-G'd.

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P-51 would be my guess.... The advanced avionics in the F-15 prevent you from tearing the plane apart, if you black out and loose the controls will level the plane on autopilot, radar to prevent mid-air collisions, and Jet > Prop


No, no and no.

F-15s do NOT have over-G prevention so yes you CAN tear them apart.  If you black out you will end up being a charred mess at the bottom of a very large smoking hole.  Radar is used for weapons deliver only, there's no such thing as collision avoidance other than the pilot.




Oh come on AL-BOB surely you remember the days of a crew chief taking a magnet and clearing that orange ball in the front gear ASP panel?



AL-BOB is correct the F-15 over-G system consisted of Bitching Betty yelling "over-G" to the pilot and a little ball turning orange so we (ground people) would know the jet was over-G'd.



Remember?  I showed more than one newbie that trick myself.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:49:44 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Pretty sure I could get into a mustang start it up and get off the runway just fine.
Have no idea how to even begin prepping the f15 for flight lol.
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First thing you have to do is go to the tool crib and sign out the keys.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 6:52:14 PM EDT
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Quoted:

B-Shop for the WIN!  

"Excuse me, Mr Crew Chief, you say you defueld AND depuddled it?  Sorry, that's not what I asked you to do.  So now you'll need to fill it completely up then defuel it again, this time without the depuddle.  Then, after I'm done doing the Low Calibration you'll need to refuel it again so I can do the High Calibration."

Only thing better than that is telling the bubble chaser to change the Right Stab Actuator, if that doesn't fix it you'll need to change the Left Stab Actuator.

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God I hated that jet (cant remember tail number) by the time we found that fault.

Code 3 Flight controls still haunts me to this day.



I so wanted to launch that jet into the bay
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