Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 10/9/2005 12:37:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 1:59:41 PM EDT by CAR_16]
I present some of the results from yesterday's range session:

I am new to AR's and don't know what I should realistically expect in terms of accuracy.

Please offer some constuctive criticism.

I did not change any scope settings and always aimed at the center of the target.
All groups are at 100 yards.

My Bushy AR, a 16" heavy BBL carbine with Nikon 3-9x40 Buckmaster scope:


Six shot Q3131A group:


Five shot Radway Green group:


Five shot XM193 group:


Five shot Remington 55gr PSP group:


Five shot 55gr FMJ WWB group:
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:44:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 12:44:46 PM EDT by olyarms]

Originally Posted By CAR_16:
I present some real world results:

I am new to AR's and don't know what I should realistically expect in terms of accuracy.

Please offer some constuctive criticism.

I did not change any scope settings and always aimed at the center of the target.
All groups are at 100 yards.

My Bushy AR, a 16" heavy BBL carbine with Nikon 6-9x40 Buckmaster scope:
tinypic.com/ege7pd.jpg

Six shot Q3131A group:
tinypic.com/egeakk.jpg

Five shot Radway Green group:
tinypic.com/egeb0g.jpg

Five shot XM193 group:
tinypic.com/egebh1.jpg

Five shot Remington 55gr PSP group:
tinypic.com/egeczt.jpg

Five shot 55gr FMJ WWB group:
tinypic.com/egedl2.jpg


Old painless has done it already, but yeah I agree. I took out my ar15a3 the other day and put some bowling pins at 300 yards and it was the most frustrating thing. Not even fun. Wolf is for plinking not for accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:44:52 PM EDT
was this off-hand?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:46:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
was this off-hand?



Nope. Bench rested.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:47:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
was this off-hand?



Nope. Bench rested.



Did you actually use any Wolf?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:50:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By CAR_16:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
was this off-hand?



Nope. Bench rested.



Did you actually use any Wolf?



Not in this case. Presumably WWB, XM193, etc. would be more accurate than Wolf.

I thought about this and changed the post title.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:50:10 PM EDT
I have seldom seen a 16" AR that couldn't perform better than that.

I would say you need to practice more and focus on your trigger control.

If you are new to AR's, you are doing fairly well but you definitely need more practice.

Break out the wallet and go to www.ammoman.com.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:56:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
I have seldom seen a 16" AR that couldn't perform better than that.

I would say you need to practice more and focus on your trigger control.

If you are new to AR's, you are doing fairly well but you definitely need more practice.

Break out the wallet and go to www.ammoman.com.



Is there are "wrong way" to practice, or do I just need to get out there and shoot?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:01:20 PM EDT
Also, have someone knowlegeable double check your scope mounting. Many a frustrating rifle has been cured by adjusting of scope rings. Get a snap cap and dry fire the new rifle about a thousand times before your next range trip and practice following through on your trigger squeeze. Try to be as well aimed after the pull as before. You can do this in front of the evening news dry firing at the liberal anchors to great effect. Good luck!
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:02:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
I have seldom seen a 16" AR that couldn't perform better than that.

I would say you need to practice more and focus on your trigger control.

If you are new to AR's, you are doing fairly well but you definitely need more practice.

Break out the wallet and go to www.ammoman.com.



Is there are "wrong way" to practice, or do I just need to get out there and shoot?



Yes there is a Wrong way to practice. Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. Work on your trigger control, breathing, etc...... on every shot. Practicing poor habits now will only make them worse later.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:05:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 1:08:04 PM EDT by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By Kooter:

Originally Posted By CAR_16:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
I have seldom seen a 16" AR that couldn't perform better than that.

I would say you need to practice more and focus on your trigger control.

If you are new to AR's, you are doing fairly well but you definitely need more practice.

Break out the wallet and go to www.ammoman.com.



Is there are "wrong way" to practice, or do I just need to get out there and shoot?



Yes there is a Wrong way to practice. Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. Work on your trigger control, breathing, etc...... on every shot. Practicing poor habits now will only make them worse later.



Listen to this guy.

The best thing I can recommend is to find the USMC Marksmanship Manual and study it. Then go out and practice your shooting using the methods you learned.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:05:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Also, have someone knowlegeable double check your scope mounting. Many a frustrating rifle has been cured by adjusting of scope rings. Get a snap cap and dry fire the new rifle about a thousand times before your next range trip and practice following through on your trigger squeeze. Try to be as well aimed after the pull as before. You can do this in front of the evening news dry firing at the liberal anchors to great effect. Good luck!





I like it!
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:20:37 PM EDT
Sight alignment, trigger control and breathing. Dry fire the hell out of it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:27:01 PM EDT
FWIW-

Looks like you are having breathing issues.
Make sure you exhale fully before each pull, and,
don't take a breath in until the round is on the way.

That's assuming you sight picture is the same each time.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:29:20 PM EDT
Is it better to train with irons or a scope?

I like the scope because it give me less eye fatigue and I can see the holes as I shoot them.

However, iron sight skills seem to be a bit more foundational.

It seems the same trigger and breathing skills would be required for both.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:34:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
FWIW-

Looks like you are having breathing issues.
Make sure you exhale fully before each pull, and,
don't take a breath in until the round is on the way.

That's assuming you sight picture is the same each time.



Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, the sight picture was the same each time.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:35:21 PM EDT
if you want the USMC marksmanship manual I have it. IM me.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:36:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:38:55 PM EDT
People seem to jerk forward a lot when they shoot to counter the recoil even if none. Simply stay as solid as possible, the less you jerk around your rifle the better the shot. Also breathe out before taking the shot but don't hold your breathe or you'll get fatigue and will screw with your shot. And pull the trigger constantly don't jerk it back.

And also practice practice practice nothing beats practice.

And your groupings aren't bad in fact they are above the norm for some one who is just getting familiar with the ar or any rifle. From what I have seen and done myself. Hell it took me at least a week before I got familiar enough to using the iron sights to shoot anything.


This is my exp.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:38:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:
Is it better to train with irons or a scope?

I like the scope because it give me less eye fatigue and I can see the holes as I shoot them.

However, iron sight skills seem to be a bit more foundational.

It seems the same trigger and breathing skills would be required for both.



Irons are great but if your eyes are no longer young, don't sweat it. Use the scope. Consistency is consistency regardless the sighting device. If you can't see the target clearly you will never get it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:01:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
People seem to jerk forward a lot when they shoot to counter the recoil even if none.




This is called shot anticipation. Some of the side effects are closing your eyes when the shot goes off, flinching, etc...

A good tool to use to determine if you anticipate the shot is to bring a friend with you to the range. Get in position to shoot. Have your friend load the rifle for you. Then he hands it back to you, and you shoot. Have your friend occasionally NOT load a round(without you knowing). You will react as though a round is loaded(since you don't know when it is loaded or not). Your friend may want to watch your eyes, and/or trigger finger to see if you are closing your eyes or jerking the trigger.

It is kind of a funny exercise to watch people do. They will be plugging along shooting, then don't load a round, some people flinch so bad it'll look like they are trying to throw the firearm down range when they shoot. It helps if the person doesn't know what the exercise is until they pull the trigger on an empty chamber.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:03:11 PM EDT
Scope and telestock just looks stupid to me. Put a damn stock on that thing.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:05:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kooter:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
People seem to jerk forward a lot when they shoot to counter the recoil even if none.




This is called shot anticipation. Some of the side effects are closing your eyes when the shot goes off, flinching, etc...

A good tool to use to determine if you anticipate the shot is to bring a friend with you to the range. Get in position to shoot. Have your friend load the rifle for you. Then he hands it back to you, and you shoot. Have your friend occasionally NOT load a round(without you knowing). You will react as though a round is loaded(since you don't know when it is loaded or not). Your friend may want to watch your eyes, and/or trigger finger to see if you are closing your eyes or jerking the trigger.

It is kind of a funny exercise to watch people do. They will be plugging along shooting, then don't load a round, some people flinch so bad it'll look like they are trying to throw the firearm down range when they shoot. It helps if the person doesn't know what the exercise is until they pull the trigger on an empty chamber.



My shooting mentor would NEVER load 6 live rounds in his 44Mag revolver. ALWAYS one empty case in the cylinder. It is amazing to see the flinch when it happens.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:15:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:54:05 PM EDT
Thanks for all of the information and comments.

I definitely need to practice and study marksmanship literature.

Hopefully I will get some better groups to post in the future.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:58:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Also, have someone knowlegeable double check your scope mounting. Many a frustrating rifle has been cured by adjusting of scope rings. Get a snap cap and dry fire the new rifle about a thousand times before your next range trip and practice following through on your trigger squeeze. Try to be as well aimed after the pull as before. You can do this in front of the evening news dry firing at the liberal anchors to great effect. Good luck!



Holdovers.

It's how I became deadly.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:59:41 PM EDT
There is nothing much wrong with your shooting.

Military Ball will not do much better than that.

Look at this:

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm

Get some quality ammo if you want to get more out of your practice sessions.

Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:00:05 PM EDT
My .223 chart says that at 100 yds. trajectory is +1.8". So all in all, not bad.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:09:49 PM EDT
sure that wasent 12 gauge buckshot
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:13:04 PM EDT
I won my money was on that Remington 55 PSP....
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 3:27:27 PM EDT by TrashHeap]
Drop in a match trigger group if want closer groupings. The heavy trigger pull on your stock AR is not for nail driving. Accuracy has a price.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:43:23 PM EDT
For somebody "just starting out with a new gun" this is not all that bad. I have seen many guys who thought they were hotshots do worse.
If you want ammo that is a bit more accurate than military ball without breaking the bank try some
Winchester 45GR VARMINT. This is available at wall mart for $12+ a box of 40 and shoots in all my Bushmasters (all factory 1/9 stock barrels) better than anything. I am getting about 1 1/4" 10 shot groups @ 100yd. I am useing a higher power scope than you with a good sandbag rest on a rock solid bench and I have a pretty slick Rock River National Match trigger.
The trigger runs $90+- and drops right in,a good smooth trigger is a great help in getting consistent results,most of the heavier crunchy military stock triggers will throw you a flyier every now and then. A top shooter can somewhat overcome a not so hot trigger but why beat yourself up over trying to learn how to shoot better when a pretty good trigger helps so much. The RRNM needs no adjusting or fussing with,just follow the simple instructions and install it yourself.
Iron sights will teach you the fundamentals but you need a buddy on a spotting scope calling every shot to know which shot was the flyer. With a scope where you can see each shot you can match results with technique as it happens.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:46:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 7:56:27 AM EDT by M4-TUNA]
It is good shooting for the ammo and the set up U have. Try Blackhills match ammo. This is what will look like with a 2 stage trigger or close anyway. There is some guys that can do alot better when they use handloads. So I say you did very well with what U had usedMY gun is a Bushmaster with 24 inch barrel and AK brake . I used BH 75 gr. ammo with that group.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 5:00:47 PM EDT
Pic 1, you are stringing left to right, try putting a bag under the buttstock, planting both feet on the ground and resting your elbows on the bench to steady you up. Make sure your head in in the same position on the stock for every shot.

Pic 2, you are vertical stringing, your should exhale about 1/2 a breath, then apply reward pressure on the trigger while watching the sight picture carefully.

Pic 3, at least they are all in the same general area, a nice steady hold and steady breathing would tighten that up a bit. Some of it is because you are trying to shoot with a 6-position stock. It is an inferior set-up for accurate shooting.

Pic 4, you had a flyer, probably not ammo related. The hard part is remembering what you did to cause the flyer and not repeating it.

Pic 5, your gun did not like that ammo, you saw three high shots and tried to force them down into the black instead of just grouping them.

If you are ammo testing, let them hit wherever they hit. Try and repeat the process of firing the weapon as closely as possible every shot regardless of where they are grouping on the paper. When you find the group you want, then adjust it to where you need it to hit.

I always figure 2 inches high at 100yds will allow a good center shot at 300 yds without any holdover. Good for hunting whatever you like to hunt. I have an RRA carbine that runs moa at 100 no problem and a RRA service rifle that will do 1/2 moa with 77gr bullets at 300.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 5:20:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Also, have someone knowlegeable double check your scope mounting. Many a frustrating rifle has been cured by adjusting of scope rings. Get a snap cap and dry fire the new rifle about a thousand times before your next range trip and practice following through on your trigger squeeze. Try to be as well aimed after the pull as before. You can do this in front of the evening news dry firing at the liberal anchors to great effect. Good luck!



Holdovers.

It's how I became deadly.


Dont forget sneaking around your yard slow enough not to set off security lights.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 6:49:30 PM EDT
Thanks again for the info everyone.

I think breathing and lack of relaxation has a lot to do with the way I shoot. Maybe some pre-shooting Zen meditation would help me calm down. Also, I have not concetrated much on breathing discipline in the past, so I definitely need to work on that.

As for using a solid stock, I bought a RRA stripped lower and put it together with a standard RRA lower parts kit and A2 stock, but it will not fit on my Bushy upper. Maybe I should just remove the telestock from my Bushmaster and replace it with the solid stock from my RRA lower.

The RRA match trigger sounds like a good idea as well.

Thanks for the military ball test results Old_Painless, they make me feel a little better. Maybe I can get some super-expensive ammo to test out my shooting skill progress from time to time.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:47:32 AM EDT
Guys, one request: when posting range results, NEVER FORGET to mention rifling twist of the barrel. Knowing the bullet weight without this data is USELESS.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:03:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 5:09:27 AM EDT by CAR_16]

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
Guys, one request: when posting range results, NEVER FORGET to mention rifling twist of the barrel. Knowing the bullet weight without this data is USELESS.



Stock Bushmaster 1/9 twist.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:17:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:

Thanks for the military ball test results Old_Painless, they make me feel a little better. Maybe I can get some super-expensive ammo to test out my shooting skill progress from time to time.



"Super-expensive" is not really needed.

Just "super accurate".

My most accurate ammo is handloads, and they are also inexpensive.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:19:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:27:14 AM EDT
Your potentially doing nothing wrong.
Its your ammo.
Buy some Black Hills. Yes, its expensive. But people looking at these groups and giving the "You do this and that" wrong are guessing at best. Thats typical factory milspec ammo. Old Painless has done the tests, and I will back up his Q3131A results with my own personal tests I've done.

Mil spec ammo is shit for accuracy (Compared to BH or handloads).

Once you rule out the ammo factor, then do some groups and figure out what your doing wrong. You could spend the rest of your life with Q3131 and never get under 2" groups no matter what you do.
I started sighting in my varminter with Q3131 and was running right around 3" groups and terribly disappointed. I switched to BH and my groups immediately dropped well under 1".
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:00:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:
Thanks again for the info everyone.

I think breathing and lack of relaxation has a lot to do with the way I shoot. Maybe some pre-shooting Zen meditation would help me calm down. Also, I have not concetrated much on breathing discipline in the past, so I definitely need to work on that.

As for using a solid stock, I bought a RRA stripped lower and put it together with a standard RRA lower parts kit and A2 stock, but it will not fit on my Bushy upper. Maybe I should just remove the telestock from my Bushmaster and replace it with the solid stock from my RRA lower.

The RRA match trigger sounds like a good idea as well.

Thanks for the military ball test results Old_Painless, they make me feel a little better. Maybe I can get some super-expensive ammo to test out my shooting skill progress from time to time.

Spend a few more bucks and get one of the Chip M. triggers. The W.O.R.R.A 2 stage triggers are good but I can sure fell the difference in the two.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:41:24 AM EDT
A big +1 on the 45gr's! Those things are like lasers from my Bushmaster. They are the most accurate rounds I have shot yet! Including the Black Hills, Hornady, PMC type expensive "match" types. They are nothing compared to the 45gr's. I can have almost all of my shots at 100yds covered with a half dollar. And I'm not even that great of a marksman!
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
...If I were you I'd dump the Loopy and buy an Aimpoint. You'll be amazed what it will do for your group size...



1x magnification will tighten group size compared to 9x magnification?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:22:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TrashHeap:
Drop in a match trigger group if want closer groupings. The heavy trigger pull on your stock AR is not for nail driving. Accuracy has a price.



^ This sort of 'help' is not help. You don't need match triggers to be accurate. Match triggers help you be more accurate when you already ARE accurate. Don't rely on gimmicks. Learn to shoot properly with your rifle as it is.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:31:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:45:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
...but it's more to get the rifle on one side of the line or the other. While higher mag is good for picking a more refined aim point a dot sight cancels out any sight aligment error.



OK, you got my interest piqued. Can you elaborate on this: "...it's more to get the rifle on one side of the line or the other". Are you referring to parallax? I'm guessing not but...
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:
I present some of the results from yesterday's range session:

I am new to AR's and don't know what I should realistically expect in terms of accuracy.

Please offer some constuctive criticism.

I did not change any scope settings and always aimed at the center of the target.
All groups are at 100 yards.




Try using a different hold, such as at the top or bottom of the black, or get a target with several small dots.

Just as in competition, the "center" is an inderterminate spot, and your variances may just be a difference in the hold in the center. In hi-power, we sight in for the bottom of the aiming black, because it is a specific spot.

Try this out and let us know if it helps.


Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:59:16 PM EDT
You should get a sling for other positions (prone, sitting) besides benchrest shooting. It helps in accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:04:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:24:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 7:26:54 PM EDT by KBaker]
If you didn't like THOSE groups, never try that South African battlepack stuff. It didn't group out of my rifle, it PATTERNED. Then I tried a box of Ultramax 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip reloads, and shot a ten-shot group you could cover over with a quarter. It wasn't the gun, it wasn't the shooter, it was the ammo.

Milsurp just isn't that good. Which is why I reload now. I get consistent sub-moa groups with 75 grain Hornady BTHP's, and I won't EVER shoot milsurp again, short of SHTF time.

Here's a sample of that handload:



The South African stuff gave dinner-plate sized groups.
Top Top