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Posted: 9/29/2007 11:46:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 4:04:32 PM EST by The_Biased_Observer]
PHOENIX (AP) -- Phoenix police say a 45-year-old woman who died after being arrested at Sky Harbor International Airport yesterday may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs.

Carol Ann Gotbaum died in a police holding room after being arrested for disorderly conduct. Police spokesman Sergeant Andy Hill says she became irate with gate crews who refused to allow her to board a plane.

Gotbaum is from New York, but Hill is unsure of the city.

She began yelling and screaming, and officers cuffed her hands behind her back and took her to the holding room, where she continued screaming.

Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive. Her cuffed hands were up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.

Here is another one!
Handcuffed man dies in police custody
Nikki Renner
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 4, 2007 10:42 AM

A 41-year-old man died early Thursday shortly after police struggled to get him into custody.

The man was the second person to die in the last week while in police custody. A woman died in Sky Harbor International Airport in a holding cell last Friday after she was arrested.

Officers said they first noticed the man parked in a car outside a known drug house near 24th Avenue and Roeser Road, according to a Phoenix Police press release.





When the two officers later patrolled a different area and noticed the same car in front of a different known drug house, they decided to make a traffic stop a few minutes before midnight.

The driver went several blocks, stopped abruptly and got out of the car, police said. When the officers approached the car, the driver got back in, police said.

Officers commanded the man to get out of the car. Witnesses reported that the officers were on either side of the car trying to get the car doors open when the man sped away.

Officers returned to their patrol car and found the suspected car near 23rd Avenue and Roeser Road.

The driver drove off the roadway, left the car and began running through Lindo Park, police said.

Officers followed the man on foot. They caught up to the man, who fought with them as they tried to take him into custody, police said. The officers used physical force to handcuff him. Neither a Taser nor pepper spray was used.

The suspect became unresponsive at 12:06 a.m. and was taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead around 1 a.m. Thursday.

An autopsy will be performed to determine the cause of death.

Neither officer was injured.
Link Posted: 9/29/2007 11:53:11 PM EST
This is why I quietly submit to the nonsense while going through TSA.

Link Posted: 9/29/2007 11:54:50 PM EST
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?
Link Posted: 9/29/2007 11:58:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2007 11:59:02 PM EST by prk]
The Gumby-fu is weak with this one.....
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:03:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 12:03:52 AM EST by 4xDawn]

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:11:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:20:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:54:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 12:55:16 AM EST by 4xDawn]

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.


I go through TSA often. I had an arfcom worthy drawdown'ecque story there once, but was wise enough to bite my tongue. I boarded the plane, and went home.

Yes. It sucked. BUT I got home. it was a worthy fight, but I assesses it as a no-winner.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:00:03 AM EST
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:00:12 AM EST
strange . but nothing a good law suit cant fix.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:07:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.


Hm.

good point. I could easily get them from back to front, but would do that by sliding the cuffs and arms around my legs.

I could never do that by trying to move them over my head.

Maybe she was stupid?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:08:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 1:08:50 AM EST by Currahee]
How many ARFCOMers are going to pull muscles seeing if this is possible?

Personaly I'm with the cops... I can see some idiot contorting themselves that badly. Sometimes stupid hurts.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:20:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.


Hm.

good point. I could easily get them from back to front, but would do that by sliding the cuffs and arms around my legs.

I could never do that by trying to move them over my head.


I know a crook who once worked for the circus as a contortionist (sp?). He could do it back to front over the head. But its a disturbing thing to watch. as the arms raise first one shoulder dislocates then the other . I cant help but wonder if after doing that do you have to unwind the connective tissues back the other direction?

I'm wondering if this woman tried the back to front way, got one shoulder to "pop" and the other wouldnt? That might leave you pretty twisted up.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:25:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Currahee:
How many ARFCOMers are going to pull muscles seeing if this is possible?





I grabbed my wrists with either hand, behind my back, then thought about how I would bring them to the front.

it can NOT work, overhead. Not even close.

easy to move your legs through them...(Easy means i didn't pull TOO many muscles, in this science experiment) If you put your legs through the arms.

What then? Decide the next course of action is to try to break them by using your neck?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:25:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:


Maybe she was stupid?


yes
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:30:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:


I know a crook who once worked for the circus as a contortionist (sp?). He could do it back to front over the head. But its a disturbing thing to watch. as the arms raise first one shoulder dislocates then the other . I cant help but wonder if after doing that do you have to unwind the connective tissues back the other direction?

I'm wondering if this woman tried the back to front way, got one shoulder to "pop" and the other wouldnt? That might leave you pretty twisted up.


Yikes.


I'm telling you. I am pretty flexible, and just tried this. Not even close. at all. Motion with wrists locked was up to shoulder blades, at best.

But then, I'm not a contortionist, so I guess anythings possible.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:08:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:


I know a crook who once worked for the circus as a contortionist (sp?). He could do it back to front over the head. But its a disturbing thing to watch. as the arms raise first one shoulder dislocates then the other . I cant help but wonder if after doing that do you have to unwind the connective tissues back the other direction?

I'm wondering if this woman tried the back to front way, got one shoulder to "pop" and the other wouldnt? That might leave you pretty twisted up.


Yikes.


I'm telling you. I am pretty flexible, and just tried this. Not even close. at all. Motion with wrists locked was up to shoulder blades, at best.

But then, I'm not a contortionist, so I guess anythings possible.



Fuck that shit. Sounds creepy, looks creepy when my wife pops her shoulder. Her brother ran har into a tree when she was little.

She is fun at party's .
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:20:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.


I trying to picture the same thing. I'm not seeing it.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:51:42 AM EST
I'm having a hard time buying this story.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:56:04 AM EST
Look at it this way,she doesn't have to eat Sheriff Arpaio's Baloney Sammichs now.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 3:01:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By Currahee:
How many ARFCOMers are going to pull muscles seeing if this is possible?





I grabbed my wrists with either hand, behind my back, then thought about how I would bring them to the front.

it can NOT work, overhead. Not even close.

easy to move your legs through them...(Easy means i didn't pull TOO many muscles, in this science experiment) If you put your legs through the arms.

What then? Decide the next course of action is to try to break them by using your neck?


I can't quite grasp the concept, would you demonstrate it for me?

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 3:01:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:
...I'm telling you. I am pretty flexible, and just tried this. Not even close. at all. Motion with wrists locked was up to shoulder blades...


I think I'm becoming aroused...
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 3:04:59 AM EST
Hard to see how you could stangle yourself with cuffs. Who knows how TSA cuffed her though.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 3:14:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
PHOENIX (AP) -- Phoenix police say a 45-year-old woman who died after being arrested at Sky Harbor International Airport yesterday may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs.

Carol Ann Gotbaum died in a police holding room after being arrested for disorderly conduct. Police spokesman Sergeant Andy Hill says she became irate with gate crews who refused to allow her to board a plane.

Gotbaum is from New York, but Hill is unsure of the city.

She began yelling and screaming, and officers cuffed her hands behind her back and took her to the holding room, where she continued screaming.

Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive. Her cuffed hands were up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.


No way. There is no freaking way she killed herself. You can not strangle yourself with handcuffs. if it were possible it would have happened dozens of times by now. some wanna-be TSA cop cuffed her in the front, then put an arm lock on her causing the cuffs to strangle her. freaking murder...period.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 4:14:31 AM EST
I heard the gov. contracted Blackwater to strangle disgruntled fliers. They have a secret trap door into the holding/strangling room.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 4:26:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Currahee:

Personaly I'm with the cops... I can see some idiot contorting themselves that badly.


Yeah... but how many people can see a coverup?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 4:31:11 AM EST
We have a secretary lady at work, who can make her two shoulders touch each other.





Before her "reduction", it was something to see.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 4:38:21 AM EST
I'm not sure how she could strangle herself. Sounds fishy to me.

However, having dealt with middle-aged highly-educated women from New York City before I can assure you that they are every bit as obnoxious and snotty as this woman appeared to be.

Think of Hillary Clinton as a college professor in Women's Studies.

Perhaps some cop just got tired of listening to her and decided to shut her up.

<­img src=/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif border=0 align=middle>

j/k, I have no idea if that's the case. But this incident should warrant more than an cursory investigation.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 4:39:37 AM EST
This wouldn't have happened if she would have just submitted to authority when asked.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:01:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.


I trying to picture the same thing. I'm not seeing it.


Me either, my arms are quite flexible [dbl jointed shoulders] and it's impossible for me to do this, I was thinking she spun her wrists in the cuffs and brought her hands up but I can get as far as the back of my neck, no further. Wierd and fishy to me, your shoulders don't work that way design wise.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:17:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 5:20:25 AM EST by Admiral_Crunch]
What kind of handcuffs have a chain long enough to wrap around your neck? Did they put her in leg and arm shackles?

Maybe she tried to put the cuffs under her feet and got stuck in some kind of compressed position that caused her to not be able to get enough air into her lungs? That's the only thing I can think of.

But if they specifically said the cuffs were around her neck, then I have no clue.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:28:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By TrijiCog:
This wouldn't have happened if she would have just submitted to authority when asked.


Or, if millions in this country had the courage to stand up to the sheople training.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:30:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.


Depends how you view things.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:41:50 AM EST
Daughter in law of "public advocate"

Link-o-matic

ohh man is this gonna be a trainwreck - Phoenix get ready for a bunch of NY attorneys circling like buzzards...

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:45:04 AM EST
Can you say wrongful death suit?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:48:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By TrijiCog:
This wouldn't have happened if she would have just submitted to authority when asked.



Sarcasm or horrifying passivity? I think the former. I hope.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:52:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Daughter in law of "public advocate"

Link-o-matic

ohh man is this gonna be a trainwreck - Phoenix get ready for a bunch of NY attorneys circling like buzzards...



Oh, boy . . .
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 5:58:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
PHOENIX (AP) -- Phoenix police say a 45-year-old woman who died after being arrested at Sky Harbor International Airport yesterday may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs.

Carol Ann Gotbaum died in a police holding room after being arrested for disorderly conduct. Police spokesman Sergeant Andy Hill says she became irate with gate crews who refused to allow her to board a plane.

Gotbaum is from New York, but Hill is unsure of the city.

She began yelling and screaming, and officers cuffed her hands behind her back and took her to the holding room, where she continued screaming.

Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive. Her cuffed hands were up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.


No way. There is no freaking way she killed herself. You can not strangle yourself with handcuffs. if it were possible it would have happened dozens of times by now. some wanna-be TSA cop cuffed her in the front, then put an arm lock on her causing the cuffs to strangle her. freaking murder...period.


Yeah,, uh, NO. My wife is a TSA agent (and a damned good one, too) and they are not permitted any arrest or detaining powers. They simply call over the City PD and they arrest the disordely weirdo.

You guys say a bunch of dumbass things about the TSA. It's not the ground-level people making the decisions on which-religion TSA worker gets to search which-religion passenger. I am not saying that the policies are not stupid - my wife tells me how stupid they are. Just stop snapping at the people who are trying to keep the next Mohammed Atta from getting on board the fucking plane.

You know, the next time he comes, he won't be wearing a headress around, eating a flafel, chanting "Death to America" and shooting his AK into the ceiling. He will come as a white lady in a nun's uniform, with a porceline knife stuck in her habit.

These people are simply trying to keep you safe. Sure, it's an inconvenience. It also beats the hell out of Islamofascists using 60,000 lb guided missiles to take out gigantic civilian targets.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:03:26 AM EST
Interesting. I wonder what her tox screen will show?

BTW: You can crush a larynx with handcuffs very easily. Maybe that's what they mean by "strangled".

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:04:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By samsong:

Originally Posted By CWDraco:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
PHOENIX (AP) -- Phoenix police say a 45-year-old woman who died after being arrested at Sky Harbor International Airport yesterday may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs.

Carol Ann Gotbaum died in a police holding room after being arrested for disorderly conduct. Police spokesman Sergeant Andy Hill says she became irate with gate crews who refused to allow her to board a plane.

Gotbaum is from New York, but Hill is unsure of the city.

She began yelling and screaming, and officers cuffed her hands behind her back and took her to the holding room, where she continued screaming.

Hill said officers checked on her when she stopped screaming and found her unresponsive. Her cuffed hands were up around her neck. A cause of death will be determined by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.


No way. There is no freaking way she killed herself. You can not strangle yourself with handcuffs. if it were possible it would have happened dozens of times by now. some wanna-be TSA cop cuffed her in the front, then put an arm lock on her causing the cuffs to strangle her. freaking murder...period.


Yeah,, uh, NO. My wife is a TSA agent (and a damned good one, too) and they are not permitted any arrest or detaining powers. They simply call over the City PD and they arrest the disordely weirdo.

You guys say a bunch of dumbass things about the TSA. It's not the ground-level people making the decisions on which-religion TSA worker gets to search which-religion passenger. I am not saying that the policies are not stupid - my wife tells me how stupid they are. Just stop snapping at the people who are trying to keep the next Mohammed Atta from getting on board the fucking plane.

You know, the next time he comes, he won't be wearing a headress around, eating a flafel, chanting "Death to America" and shooting his AK into the ceiling. He will come as a white lady in a nun's uniform, with a porceline knife stuck in her habit.

These people are simply trying to keep you safe. Sure, it's an inconvenience. It also beats the hell out of Islamofascists using 60,000 lb guided missiles to take out gigantic civilian targets.


great your wife is one of the good ones...but TSA
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:07:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who if cuffed behind the back gets the cuffs around their neck?

Slipping the cuffs to the front is easy. Some people can even do it by going over their head from back to front (dislocating shoulders) but i cants ee how you would choke yourself out doing either.


I trying to picture the same thing. I'm not seeing it.


I wonder if there are pics somewhere? It really is weird

(BTW I really like the new lifetime members tags people are sportin! Sorry this is the first thread where I saw them. It's also the first time I've seen the nifty instructor icon. That hawtsauce )
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:10:09 AM EST
Flex cuffs? Or maybe whoever wrote the article got the facts wrong.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:13:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By samsong:
He will come as a white lady in a nun's uniform, with a porceline knife stuck in her habit.



Doood, you have been indoctrinated by your wife without even knowing it.
When a nun with a porceline knife hijacks a plane and runs it into the nearest Starbucks, I'll eat my boots.

Can you get a message to the federales at the Atlanta airport that destroyed my buddy's $900 scope with a chisel?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:20:28 AM EST
And in unrelated stories another passenger apparently committed suicide, shooting himself in the back five times. And another passenger taken into custody died from blunt force trauma to the head after slipping and striking his head on the ground eight times.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 6:57:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By TrijiCog:
This wouldn't have happened if she would have just submitted to authority when asked.


And isn't that the point? Just be a good compliant subject, and Officer Cartman won't hurt you.

This sounds like the old "shot in the back while trying to escape" story, except in this case, she strangled herself while trying to escape. Yeah, that's the ticket.

There was a commercial on TV a few years ago: Mommy was questioning little boy about how his brother got that cut on his head. "He bit himself." "How did he bite himself on the forehead?" "He stood on a chair."
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 9:22:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.


Depends how you view things.


Ok Cop. Tell us how this could be viewed that would justify this woman being dead.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 9:35:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.


Depends how you view things.


Ok Cop. Tell us how this could be viewed that would justify this woman being dead.


Easy, she killed herself while trying to get out of the cuffs. It is no different than if she killed herself trying to jump from the roof of the jail and escape, killed herself trying to climb an electric fence, etc.

She took the actions that brought about her death. No Officers were even in the room when she died...


Yes, people will sue the police as they always do but this one is not the PDs fault. She caused this by trying to get out of the cuffs.



Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:38:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2007 1:41:39 PM EST by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By 4xDawn:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?


We traded for a week.

(don't tell anybody though. Its a secret)


eta: Its actually more funny that he has mine.



I am STILL confuzzed!!!


And a woman is still dead that should not be.


Depends how you view things.


Ok Cop. Tell us how this could be viewed that would justify this woman being dead.


"should not be dead."

Thats a claim that brings up a wide variety of moral and ethical questions. But as for should she be dead or alive? I'd have to know what kind of person she is to make that call. Was her existance a net gain to society or a net loss to society?

I think we all agree that she should not have died in police custody. Even morally reprehensible people are entitled to a safe custody enviroment.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:47:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Currahee:
How many ARFCOMers are going to pull muscles seeing if this is possible?

Personaly I'm with the cops... I can see some idiot contorting themselves that badly. Sometimes stupid hurts.

I've seen a guy nearly knock himself out trying to jump through cuffs, but i'm not sure how someone could manage to strangle themselves...
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 1:59:59 PM EST
This story is shaping up nicely here in GD. So far we have several conspiracy and cover up theories as well as an outright TSA murder. Just for grins and giggles maybe a psychotic person (as classified by her actions that got her detained in the first place) did something that she shouldn't have and killed herself through no fault of the PD.



Nah, there's absolutely no fun in that "logic".
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:07:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:
I is confused as to why you have Rusted ACE's avatar?
Cause he is worse than Hitler and Saddam and he is a veteran of the dreaded Cola Wars.
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