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Posted: 10/12/2004 9:47:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:02:00 AM EST by vmax84]
Reason I ask is because I would like to purchase one of those 100 dollar kerosene heaters (not the salamander type, but the kind of heater you can actually use inside of your house) and use it out in my garage (to take the "chill off" while working on the car).

What do you think.......can I use jet fuel (the fuel out of my plane), or should I stick with what the manufacturer of the heater recommends?

Thanks for any help.

vmax84
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:59:40 AM EST
Damn brother, you own your own jet airplane but you've got a cold garage?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:02:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:02:57 AM EST by Torf]
I use plain old clear white kerosene for my Kero-Sun space heater. As far as I know, clear white kerosene is the same as JetA. There is a yellow kerosene too, but I don't use that kind.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:05:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rabid_Coyote:
Damn brother, you own your own jet airplane but you've got a cold garage?





That's $%^#$%% funny!!! No, I don't own my own plane, just fly a little cargo plane that burns jet fuel, so free fuel (can't dump the sumpings back in the plane........somebody should benefit from the sumpings ) for a heater out in the garage is easy to come by. I"m just afraid of the jet fuel being more "sooty" than the stuff they use in those heaters and making a mess out in the garage.

vmax84
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:08:16 AM EST
Unless you are stealing the Jet A, K-1 is cheaper, but they both should work okay. Don't use diesel fuel unless you want everything in the garage to smell like a, well, jet airplane! [or a diesel Mercedes]
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:10:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:11:03 AM EST by Master_Blaster]
I used to refuel planes in another life, & was always told that they are one & the same (looked & smelled the same). Not sure if the aviation variety has some anti-icing additives (probably not, since we would sometimes add that in as an extra, at the pilots request). Who do you plan to purchase your "jet fuel" from, an aviation FBO?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:13:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:15:02 AM EST by danno-in-michigan]
I used to fly a jet in a prior life and the manual said that kerosene was an approved fuel for the airplane, which doesn't answer the question as to whether Jet A is an approved fuel for the heater. Here's a link that discusses the two:

Jet A and K-1

(of course, like anything else on the internet, that information's as good as what you pay for it).
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:18:19 AM EST
they are close enough it should work.

test it outside!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:21:07 AM EST
I thought they were close cousins, but not the same. I wouldn't want to even try putting K1 in a million dollar turbine, but for a space heater, there's probably not much difference. Possible dangers could be the byproducts put out into the room (that you'll breathe in) or maybe using the other fuel might burn hotter past the tolerance levels of some weird part in the heater.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:30:34 AM EST
We have run hundreds of gallons of K1 through the helicopter. Only difference is the additive package, anti iceer and algacide. Jet A runs fine in my kerosuns.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:36:55 AM EST
Pay your least-liked inlaw or child to start it with a 10' barge pole over 100 meters from the nearest occupied dwelling. Preferribly with the individual in a fox hole and wearing bomb squad gear. If they survive, assume functional and proceed as planned.

Kharn
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:42:32 AM EST
I know that JP-8 has static electricity inhibitors in it and ther things that keep it fron freezing/gelling up in cold temps.


I'd use it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:53:00 AM EST
seems like jet-A is just purified kero.........
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:56:36 AM EST
Get both!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:24:11 AM EST
Both are really the same, however Jet A has surfacants (sp?) to prevent from sludge forming in the tanks, and also to prevent algae from forming also. So really it just has to do with the additives.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:37:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:52:04 AM EST
In the strict sense of chemical compounds, no, they are not the same.
I would not use Jet-A it for a space heater in the garage since it containes "other stuff" than just 100% kerosene.

Using something other than what the manufacturer reccomends is like saying "hold my beer and watch this ya'll..."

Shell Jet-A
CAS#--------CONCENTRATION--------INGREDIENTS
Mixture-------100 %weight--------------Jet Fuel
8008-20-6---96.6 - 99.98 %weight-----Kerosene
91-20-3------0 - 2.99 %weight----------Naphthalene
7704-34-9---0 - 0.29 %weight----------Sulfur
71-43-2------0.01 - 0.08 %weight-------Benzene

Shell Kerosene
CAS#--------CONCENTRATION--------INGREDIENTS
Mixture-------100 %weight--------------Jet Fuel
64742-81-0--100 %weight-------------Treated Kerosene
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 12:45:44 PM EST
Thanks for all the good info............I think I'll just use the electric heater

vmax84

My luck, I'll blow the damn house up.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:15:29 PM EST
If the jet a you are using is mixed with the anti-icing and anti microbrial additive (Prist), I would not recommend using it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:36:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 1:39:51 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]
Use it.

They only difference is the additives, namely for anti-microbial and anti-icing properties. They are in such small qualities they will make no difference, and are designed to combust as easily as the fuel and not change its burning properties.

I just spent way too much time studying Jet-A, JP-4, JP-8, kerosene, and diesel and comparing fuel lubrictity, additive packages, and field expedient adddditives. Except for the diesel they are all pretty much the same except for the additives, and of course kerosene isn't held top the same QC standards.

Just don't run Jet-A in a vehicle with a fuel injection pump that depends on fuel for internal lubrication, especially a Stanadyne/ Roosa Master type system.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:48:13 PM EST
Jet A is purified a bit more than Kerosene, It should work just fine.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:02:10 PM EST
Falcon or Lear?

I wouldn't hesitate to use jet-a in a heater as long as theres ventilation.

<== Jet mech
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:15:58 PM EST
I know that JP-8 causes coking deposits on the power turbine blades of T-56's if you don't run the engines at idle for 5 minutes to cool them down.




Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Use it.

They only difference is the additives, namely for anti-microbial and anti-icing properties. They are in such small qualities they will make no difference, and are designed to combust as easily as the fuel and not change its burning properties.

I just spent way too much time studying Jet-A, JP-4, JP-8, kerosene, and diesel and comparing fuel lubrictity, additive packages, and field expedient adddditives. Except for the diesel they are all pretty much the same except for the additives, and of course kerosene isn't held top the same QC standards.

Just don't run Jet-A in a vehicle with a fuel injection pump that depends on fuel for internal lubrication, especially a Stanadyne/ Roosa Master type system.

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:39:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I know that JP-8 causes coking deposits on the power turbine blades of T-56's if you don't run the engines at idle for 5 minutes to cool them down.




Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Use it.

They only difference is the additives, namely for anti-microbial and anti-icing properties. They are in such small qualities they will make no difference, and are designed to combust as easily as the fuel and not change its burning properties.

I just spent way too much time studying Jet-A, JP-4, JP-8, kerosene, and diesel and comparing fuel lubrictity, additive packages, and field expedient adddditives. Except for the diesel they are all pretty much the same except for the additives, and of course kerosene isn't held top the same QC standards.

Just don't run Jet-A in a vehicle with a fuel injection pump that depends on fuel for internal lubrication, especially a Stanadyne/ Roosa Master type system.




JP-8 is a compromise that lets everyone use a single fuel... yet is a compromise for all involved.

It lacks enough lubricty, despite the additives, to effectively power the ground equipment without causing injector pump failure in some and, an even worse problem, at high temperatures has too low a viscosity to allow the vehicles to start easily in hot weather.

Yet for aircraft the same additives that they use to attempt to make it acceptable for ground vehicles causes problems there.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:57:08 PM EST
I used to haul fuel for a living. I don't know about the additives and such but when I hauled Kerosene and called it Kerosene people would say "ok." When I hauled Kerosene and called it Jet Fuel people would say "dang man, thats dangerous stuff."
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:52:49 PM EST

It lacks enough lubricty, despite the additives, to effectively power the ground equipment without causing injector pump failure /


No doubt why the VN vets I know dumped a couple qts lube oil in the JetA they put in GPUs.

The 250C20 requires a two min.cool-own at ground idle as well but not for blade coking; rather it is to prevent bearing coking. If the hot section is really hot and you shut down, oil flow stops and bearing temp goes sky high. No doubt other turbines have different issues.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:44:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By vmax84:

No, I don't own my own plane, just fly a little cargo plane that burns jet fuel, so free fuel (can't dump the sumpings back in the plane........somebody should benefit from the sumpings ) for a heater out in the garage is easy to come by. I"m just afraid of the jet fuel being more "sooty" than the stuff they use in those heaters and making a mess out in the garage.

vmax84



Sumpings...LOL For the benefit of the non pilots here, a sump sample is about the size of a shotglass.

Sometimes you need 3 or 4 ounces at a time. Almost nobody sumps jet equipment, but I'm glad you do V max. I do also, but it evaporates (don't tell EPA)

You need to get at least 2 gallons of fuel samples every preflight, Never can be too careful, right?
Admit it...Stealing is OK, unless you make UPS or FEDEX main line money.

The additives are very toxic, and some FBO's use preblended fuel. Ever read the warnings on a PRIST can?

I would use it in a Diesel truck, but not in an indoor Kero heater. Kero keaters are dangerous for indoors anyway. If the carbon monoxide doesen't kill you, it will give you dain bramage!

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:25:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By BillofRights:

I would use it in a Diesel truck, but not in an indoor Kero heater. Kero keaters are dangerous for indoors anyway. If the carbon monoxide doesen't kill you, it will give you dain bramage!




If you so this, ensure you add abour 1.5% 2 cycle engine oil to it to ensure you have enough lubricity. That still will not solve your viscosity problems however.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:25:29 AM EST
WTF is dain damage?????
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:28:32 AM EST
I have learned more stuff on this thread then in any thread in ARFCOM history!


You guys are smart!


SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:31:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Robbie:
I thought they were close cousins, but not the same. I wouldn't want to even try putting K1 in a million dollar turbine, but for a space heater, there's probably not much difference. Possible dangers could be the byproducts put out into the room (that you'll breathe in) or maybe using the other fuel might burn hotter past the tolerance levels of some weird part in the heater.



We had a Lear jet that came out of Canada with some snomobile premix for fuel! They had been at a remote airport and needed a little more than they brought to make it out. Blue smoke trail all the way out! Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:52:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 2:52:41 AM EST by cwd10]
"71-43-2------0.01 - 0.08 %weight-------Benzene "

This is the one to pay attention to guys. Benzine is BAD STUFF, and if you burn it in an enclosed area, you are exposing yourself to a major Carcinogen, lung damage, reproductive damage, brain damage and other maladies. I wouldn't burn the stuff indoors. Even in a drafty garage.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:35:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By cwd10:
"71-43-2------0.01 - 0.08 %weight-------Benzene "

This is the one to pay attention to guys. Benzine is BAD STUFF, and if you burn it in an enclosed area, you are exposing yourself to a major Carcinogen, lung damage, reproductive damage, brain damage and other maladies. I wouldn't burn the stuff indoors. Even in a drafty garage.



Is this in kerosene, jet fuel, or both?

And just to clarify, to kind of clear the air on this "sumping" stuff, the fuel tanks have to sumped along with a few other collection points on the plane. Plus, there is an EPA can that has to be drained after every 7 or so engine shut downs, otherwise, it just dumps the fuel overboard onto the ground, which would negate the use of the EPA can. I don't steal the fuel or drain extra out........I just can't see throwing this fuel away when I feel it could go to better use than dumping it into our recylcling barrels.

Anyway, thanks again for all the good help.............as always!!

vmax84
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