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Posted: 11/25/2007 8:25:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 8:26:09 AM EDT by AvengeR15]
If I start carrying spray in addition to my CCW, do the same guidelines apply as far as use? Can I legally use pepperspray if I do NOT feel like my life is in danger? I.E., if a bum won't leave me alone when I won't give him a dollar or whatever? What about using it as an argument-ender. As in, somebody is rude to me and using aggressive body language, so I spray them as a distraction while I leave the area to avoid a further escalation?

I have an LEO friend who doesn't trust the spray at all, and he has a lot more experience than I do. I've been sprayed once and it wasn't fun at all, but that was in a controlled environment. Is it even worth carrying?

Thanks for any info.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 8:36:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 8:37:07 AM EDT by Hokie]
Pepper spray is non-deadly force. That said, if it's not self defense it's considered assault.

It's a deterrent, and a good one at that. I'm no LEO but I do carry a 2.4oz can of Fox Labs 5.3, as does my wife.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 9:56:03 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By Hokie:
Pepper spray is non-deadly LESS LETHAL force. That said, if it's not self defense it's considered assault.

It's a deterrent, and a good one at that. I'm no LEO but I do carry a 2.4oz can of Fox Labs 5.3, as does my wife.



Peppery Spray can kill. If you spray someone highly allergic to Oleoresin Capsicum (the active ingredient in pepper spray) they can most certainly die. Also it can cause people to panic and harm themselves during the course of that panic. If you are not properly trained in using OC spray, then I would discourage carrying it.

Keep in mind that if you use it, then you are definitely going to get some on you and suffer the effects.

I see no problem with carrying it, but using it to do anything but defend yourself from a persitent aggressor would be considered assault.

A quick story to illustrate my point: I got jumped one night in a local party district of town. My friend and I (both sober) were jumped for no apparent reason by two jock types from the local college. I was carrying (Colt 1911 Commander in Bianchi Widowmaker on right hip) and my first instinct was to protect my gun from being taken. Seeing as my friend and I both bounced at a local nightclub and had been in plenty of fights recently, we knew how to handle ourselves and the situation quickly reversed itself. The bad guys ended up on the ground and we ended up on top, holding them until police arrived. In this scenario, it was an equal fight between four people, it wasn't a robbery or a rape or anything, and personally I never felt fear for my life (no threats were made or anything). It was a case of mistaken identity and had I shot the guys jumping us I feel as though I definitely would not have been justified. However, if I had a can of Fox on me I think I would have been completely justified in spraying them when I got the chance.

That's the short version of the story, and I think it illustrates the small role pepper spray should play in the civillian world. If there had been a threat on my life or a demand for money the situation would have been different.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 10:24:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spd1719:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
Pepper spray is non-deadly LESS LETHAL force. That said, if it's not self defense it's considered assault.

It's a deterrent, and a good one at that. I'm no LEO but I do carry a 2.4oz can of Fox Labs 5.3, as does my wife.



Peppery Spray can kill. If you spray someone highly allergic to Oleoresin Capsicum (the active ingredient in pepper spray) they can most certainly die. Also it can cause people to panic and harm themselves during the course of that panic. If you are not properly trained in using OC spray, then I would discourage carrying it.

Keep in mind that if you use it, then you are definitely going to get some on you and suffer the effects.

I see no problem with carrying it, but using it to do anything but defend yourself from a persitent aggressor would be considered assault.

A quick story to illustrate my point: I got jumped one night in a local party district of town. My friend and I (both sober) were jumped for no apparent reason by two jock types from the local college. I was carrying (Colt 1911 Commander in Bianchi Widowmaker on right hip) and my first instinct was to protect my gun from being taken. Seeing as my friend and I both bounced at a local nightclub and had been in plenty of fights recently, we knew how to handle ourselves and the situation quickly reversed itself. The bad guys ended up on the ground and we ended up on top, holding them until police arrived. In this scenario, it was an equal fight between four people, it wasn't a robbery or a rape or anything, and personally I never felt fear for my life (no threats were made or anything). It was a case of mistaken identity and had I shot the guys jumping us I feel as though I definitely would not have been justified. However, if I had a can of Fox on me I think I would have been completely justified in spraying them when I got the chance.

That's the short version of the story, and I think it illustrates the small role pepper spray should play in the civillian world. If there had been a threat on my life or a demand for money the situation would have been different.




Got a link to an incident where someone died as a result of being sprayed?? Not saying that you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing.



I like pepper spray and have used a lot of it. It's not a fight ender but will make it easier for me to win when fighting with some turd. I have only seen a few people who were not seriously affected by the spray. Most people respond immediately upon being sprayed. They can still swing and fight but not as well.


To the OP: You can use it (depending on the local laws) to defend yourself. Your example of spraying the bum would not be a good idea unless he is threatening you. It is considered for self defense. For example, you are out in public and someone starts an altercation with you. You have made every effort to defuse the situation and have run out of options. In that case, spray away and then exit the area. I would contact local LE and advise them of what has happened and that you have left but will be available for questions if needed. I would also recommend that you tell them that you would like to pursue charges against the person who was going to assault you if they should make contact with the suspect.

I have worked several cases where someone sprayed another person. I have only arrested one and that was because he followed the victim to the victim's house after starting the altercation elsewhere. Then, when he realized that he was going to get his ass handed to him, he sprayed at the victim and hauled ass from the area. He got charged because he started the altercation. Otherwise, in my experience, no other incident where someone got pepper sprayed by a member of the general public resulted in charges against the person who used the pepper spray.

It's a good tool but check your local laws. Some liberal jurisdictions prohibit possession by the general public. Apparently the bad guys are more important than victims there..........but that's an issue for another thread!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 10:51:58 AM EDT

height=8



Got a link to an incident where someone died as a result of being sprayed?? Not saying that you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing.



I like pepper spray and have used a lot of it. It's not a fight ender but will make it easier for me to win when fighting with some turd. I have only seen a few people who were not seriously affected by the spray. Most people respond immediately upon being sprayed. They can still swing and fight but not as well.


To the OP: You can use it (depending on the local laws) to defend yourself. Your example of spraying the bum would not be a good idea unless he is threatening you. It is considered for self defense. For example, you are out in public and someone starts an altercation with you. You have made every effort to defuse the situation and have run out of options. In that case, spray away and then exit the area. I would contact local LE and advise them of what has happened and that you have left but will be available for questions if needed. I would also recommend that you tell them that you would like to pursue charges against the person who was going to assault you if they should make contact with the suspect.

I have worked several cases where someone sprayed another person. I have only arrested one and that was because he followed the victim to the victim's house after starting the altercation elsewhere. Then, when he realized that he was going to get his ass handed to him, he sprayed at the victim and hauled ass from the area. He got charged because he started the altercation. Otherwise, in my experience, no other incident where someone got pepper sprayed by a member of the general public resulted in charges against the person who used the pepper spray.

It's a good tool but check your local laws. Some liberal jurisdictions prohibit possession by the general public. Apparently the bad guys are more important than victims there.....hat


Good advice and good posting. Sorry, but I don't have a link to any cases of OC involved deaths. I must admit that I was going on what our OC instructor taught and that was a couple of years ago so not only is my info dated, but it is also hearsay. I should add that he said that death could result IF treatment was not rendered within a reasonable time after exposure. Still and all, I see no reason to not be careful employing the use of any force for any reason. Spraying someone for annoying you would be the same as punching someone for the same offense.

That being said I should also note that since my dept received tasers I have since nixed OC from my belt. I still carry it in the car for any large group type scenarios, but for one on one encounters I've pretty much quit using it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 11:39:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 11:59:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By spd1719:

Good advice and good posting. Sorry, but I don't have a link to any cases of OC involved deaths. I must admit that I was going on what our OC instructor taught and that was a couple of years ago so not only is my info dated, but it is also hearsay. I should add that he said that death could result IF treatment was not rendered within a reasonable time after exposure. Still and all, I see no reason to not be careful employing the use of any force for any reason. Spraying someone for annoying you would be the same as punching someone for the same offense.

That being said I should also note that since my dept received tasers I have since nixed OC from my belt. I still carry it in the car for any large group type scenarios, but for one on one encounters I've pretty much quit using it.

I've been a chemical agent / oc instructor for going on 6 years and I've never heard of anyone being allergic to anything in oc. Our training packages were provided by Armor Holdings and they don't even refer to any concerns with allergic reactions.
I'm not saying that there isn't someone out there somewhere that is allergic to oleo resin capsicum, I've just never read any documented proof of it.
The same goes for the "can't spray someone with asthma" story.
OC doesn't trigger asthma attacks. It causes panic, which can lead to hyperventilating..

As for you not carrying oc anymore. Why would you give up a useful tool for the sake of an inch or two on your duty belt?


I just got certified with Freeze about 3 months ago. It caused panic in me, and I'm normally calm and cool in any other situation. That shit works, and works well...I won't hesitate for a second to spray someone if need be.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 12:14:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 12:16:33 PM EDT by CWDraco]
I have a twist on this issue that I have been meaning to post...it sorta fits here, but If I don't get a lot of replies I will make my own topic.

I carry Dog spray on me while walking my dogs. Several times loose dogs have attacked my dogs and I have sprayed them.

What if I was too use "dog Spray" on a person? I really have no idea what the effects would be and it clearly states on the can "Harmful to humans". Now this would be a defensive situation where I was being attacked, robbed...ect. My wife also carries a can of this while walking the dogs as well.

Dog Shield
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 1:08:53 PM EDT
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I've been a chemical agent / oc instructor for going on 6 years and I've never heard of anyone being allergic to anything in oc. Our training packages were provided by Armor Holdings and they don't even refer to any concerns with allergic reactions.
I'm not saying that there isn't someone out there somewhere that is allergic to oleo resin capsicum, I've just never read any documented proof of it.
The same goes for the "can't spray someone with asthma" story.
OC doesn't trigger asthma attacks. It causes panic, which can lead to hyperventilating..

As for you not carrying oc anymore. Why would you give up a useful tool for the sake of an inch or two on your duty belt?


Cause I'm skinny, and belt real estate is a premium for me. Also, I'm fair skinned and it really fucks me up to be sprayed. Call me a pussy if you want, but that shit really gets to me. I don't like it and avoid exposure if I can. I also work in a department where backup is usually only seconds away, so I don't need to rely soley on myself to bring every tool I have to the fight right off the bat. If that were the case I'd be gettign out of the car with my rifle on every call. Theres alot of reasons I don't carry it on my body anymore, but mainly it was to make room for a more useful tool (IMHO), the taser.

As far as the instruction I received in OC, you definitely would know better than I would. I bow to your knowledge and retract any statements about OC being possibly "lethal".

As far as the OP goes, hey, carry it if it's legal in your area and if you like having one more thing on your belt. I for one carry badge/ID, gun, and sometimes cuffs when off duty. That one scenario that I related earlier has been the only off duty incident I've been involved in that might have warranted the use of pepper spray, but of course YMMV.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 1:25:54 PM EDT
I don't trust OC against active aggressors. If fists are flying or weapons are brandished, OC is not the weapon for me. I think OC is best used to control passive resistors and those idiots who get "in your face" but haven't thrown punches yet.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 1:52:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWDraco:
I have a twist on this issue that I have been meaning to post...it sorta fits here, but If I don't get a lot of replies I will make my own topic.

I carry Dog spray on me while walking my dogs. Several times loose dogs have attacked my dogs and I have sprayed them.

What if I was too use "dog Spray" on a person? I really have no idea what the effects would be and it clearly states on the can "Harmful to humans". Now this would be a defensive situation where I was being attacked, robbed...ect. My wife also carries a can of this while walking the dogs as well.

Dog Shield


Dog spray is designed for use on dogs and their heightened since of smell. Most dog/bear sprays are .075% capsation where the average human version is 6 to 10 % capsation. Dog spray as it has much less heat, will not work as well on humans, scientifically speaking. If any one has used this on a human and found my comments to be untrue, please advice. As for OC’s place in less lethal, before I left, our use of force continuum went “command presence, voice command OC spray, open handed control tactics. The reason was a quick burst of OC keeps things professional. A fist fight can turn personal real quick.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 2:16:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NVCapCop:
I don't trust OC against active aggressors. If fists are flying or weapons are brandished, OC is not the weapon for me. I think OC is best used to control passive resistors and those idiots who get "in your face" but haven't thrown punches yet.


That's what I would use it for as well, but do the same rules apply to me as a citizen?
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 2:29:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 2:35:58 PM EDT by FrankSymptoms]

Got a link to an incident where someone died as a result of being sprayed?? Not saying that you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing.


Allergic reactions occur in a small number of people. I had a friend who was allergic to pepper! She would leave the house if anyone even opened a new bottle of peppercorns.

Oleocapsin (sp?) is a severe irritant to the nasal and eye tissues. No wonder it can cause severe problems for someone who is already sensitized.

ETA
Links re. fatalities:

http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/rn/2001-02/02rn19.htm

http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/reports/journal_forensic_med_oc_death.html

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6416/smith-ok.html
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 3:00:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 3:03:40 PM EDT by Vinnie]
to answer the original question. No I don't believe it would be lawful for you to use it on a bum who kept pestering you for dollar. If howeer the bum became irrate and seemed aggressive then, yes, I would think you could use it. Now as a "fight ender," again it depends on the circumstances. Fender bender and the other guy gets out of the car and begins banging on the car for you to get out, yes. You accidentally bump into a guy on the street and call him a stupid n----, and he goes after you, no.

It's a question of force v force. Your gun is lethal force, so you use it if you fear for your life, as a last resort, ie, your assailant has some type of weapon and is probably going to kill you. OC spray is less lethal so you use it if you fear for your safety, ie assailant unarmed and you have a chance of just running away if can slow the guy down.

eta: second senenerio. You are in a heated argument. You turn and leave, problem solved. You turn and leave and he grabs you, oc spray. I'd say you couldn't just spray the guy and leave. If you try and leave and he stops you, then oc spray.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 4:04:45 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
height=8
Originally Posted By NVCapCop:
I don't trust OC against active aggressors. If fists are flying or weapons are brandished, OC is not the weapon for me. I think OC is best used to control passive resistors and those idiots who get "in your face" but haven't thrown punches yet.


That's what I would use it for as well, but do the same rules apply to me as a citizen?


You run in to a lot of passive resistors as a citizen? h
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 4:38:32 PM EDT
OC is a good tool. However, it has it's limitations. Rarely have I seen it kick in immediately. Mostly delayed reaction.

You may also get splash back. That's why you see video's of cops getting sprayed on You Tube. They train you on how to work through the effects of it.

Argument ender? Doubtful. Spraying panhandlers? Not wise. You end up being the bad guy.

Now if someone is attacking you, spray away... Gotta be able to explain your actions.

Dog repellent aka Halt etal. Works just fine. If you are justified in using that level of force, then you are justified in using "that level of force."

Check you State and Local ord. YMMV

Just another tool. Use your head 1st and foremost. 90% of the time you won't need to use anything. The other 10% you will have options.

My .02

Link Posted: 11/25/2007 6:19:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2007 6:20:42 PM EDT by leo84]
If youve never been sprayed with it you have no real business carrying it, as its probably just going to wind up hurting you more than it does your assaulter. TO, the OP your scenarios are not appropriate uses of OC for a civilian. If your being assaulted knock yourself out and deploy it, but those two examples are definetly not a use for it. In both situations, you can just walk away and the problem is solved.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 6:44:36 PM EDT
If you're gonna spray someone, first spit on your finger to check the wind direction.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 6:54:00 PM EDT
AND it isn't 100%.I sprayed a retired firefighter,who was drunk.Brand new can-so it wasn't"spoiled"...no real effect,but asked if I was ready to 'start breaking up furniture'...but,he did move around (and away) to avoid a second dose. This was in the lobby of a hotel.the office clerk across the lobby,in an office began choking,as did my partner upstairs.But firefighter was used to obnoxious fumes.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 11:49:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 3:53:04 PM EDT by AvengeR15]

Originally Posted By spd1719:

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:

I think OC is best used to control passive resistors and those idiots who get "in your face" but haven't thrown punches yet.


That's what I would use it for as well, but do the same rules apply to me as a citizen?


You run in to a lot of passive resistors as a citizen?


More the second example in the highlighted sentence rather than the first.


Originally Posted By leo84:

If youve never been sprayed with it you have no real business carrying it


I have been sprayed, as I mentioned before.



Thanks for all the replies. I am not sure if it's right for me or if there are other more viable options out there.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 1:08:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 1:08:51 AM EDT by spd1719]
height=8


More the second example in the highlighted sentence rather than the first.


I have been sprayed, as I mentioned before.



Thanks for all the replies. I am not sure if it's right for me or if there are other more viable options out there.


More viable options...
1: Walk away from confrontation if at all possible.
2: Let people say what they want to you, refer to rule 1
3: Defend yourself ONLY as a last resort.
4: Carry a gun to facilitate #3, be a good observer and call the police in any situation not warranting direct action by you with firearm.

If you are being verbally abused or harassed by someone you can either man up and shrug it off or call the police and make a complaint. These are your options to combat verbal harassment. You may not assault the actor, abuse them back, throw pineapples, or anything else that may come to mind. The law is pretty clear on the fact that it takes two to fight and if one walks away the fight can't happen. You still have a duty to retreat in most situations. It may suck, and I agree that it's a bitter pill to swallow, but there it is.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 6:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2007 6:17:44 AM EDT by ColtRifle]

Originally Posted By spd1719:



More the second example in the highlighted sentence rather than the first.


I have been sprayed, as I mentioned before.



Thanks for all the replies. I am not sure if it's right for me or if there are other more viable options out there.


More viable options...
1: Walk away from confrontation if at all possible.
2: Let people say what they want to you, refer to rule 1
3: Defend yourself ONLY as a last resort.
4: Carry a gun to facilitate #3, be a good observer and call the police in any situation not warranting direct action by you with firearm.

If you are being verbally abused or harassed by someone you can either man up and shrug it off or call the police and make a complaint. These are your options to combat verbal harassment. You may not assault the actor, abuse them back, throw pineapples, or anything else that may come to mind. The law is pretty clear on the fact that it takes two to fight and if one walks away the fight can't happen. You still have a duty to retreat in most situations. It may suck, and I agree that it's a bitter pill to swallow, but there it is.



You know. The above info is definately correct but it highlights the mess that our society is currently in.

Used to be, two people could fight and the loser took his licks and went on. Now, two people fight and the loser wants to file a report for assault.

Used to be, you didn't mouth other people because you ran the risk of getting your ass handed to you. Now, you can mouth someone all you want and if they get tired of it and put you where you belong, then they are guilty of assault.

If a kid sees a bully in school and decides that he's seen the bully bother too many kids and he takes matters into his hands and puts the bully on his ass, then he's suspended for starting a fight.

Thanks to the liberals, defending ourselves or someone else is no longer considered an honorable thing. So instead we have mass murder in our schools and on our streets. Remember that incident in NY? Woman was getting beaten and raped in the park and NONE of the passersby decided to help her. Sad thing is, if someone had stopped and stomped a mud hole in the dirtbag, they could run the risk of being arrested and then when the criminal justice system got done abusing them, the family of the rapist(who was really a nice, caring guy) would sue the person who stood up for the poor girl who was being raped.

We are doomed. We are watching the rapid fall of western civilization.


Sorry for the rant that kind of goes off the OPs original topic!!
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 8:32:44 AM EDT
FWIW I agree with you 100%!
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 5:21:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 5:23:57 AM EDT by highdraglowspeed]
Click link below for clarity

Let me introduce you to the gentle art of persuasion



I do hate being hit without hitting back---but its a cheap price to pay for winning!" (Detective Operative Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett)

Link Posted: 11/27/2007 8:34:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By highdraglowspeed:
Click link below for clarity

Let me introduce you to the gentle art of persuasion



I do hate being hit without hitting back---but its a cheap price to pay for winning!" (Detective Operative Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett)



Verbal Judo is like a sign that says "keep out".
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 3:32:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 3:34:51 PM EDT by trt-sqrt11]

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
If I start carrying spray in addition to my CCW, do the same guidelines apply as far as use? Can I legally use pepperspray if I do NOT feel like my life is in danger? As in, somebody is rude to me and using aggressive body language.


You need to be able to verbalize that you felt threatened by another. The possibilty of serious injury not death is the idea. The scenarios are usually pretty open that you could feel such. Check your local statutes and see if any legitimate training is going on in your area.

The biggest advantage to carrying OC along w/ a CCW for a civillian is that it gives you options. The posting above of the guy who got jumped while armed, then overpowered his attacker is a pretty good example.

If you are forced to use your CCW to defend yourself, you can also point out that you had the OC, but the situation moved past using OC as an appropriate response. It can help especially in the civil case to come. You can convince a jury that you want to protect yourself and that you'll not out to shoot people.

If you can, get a combo OC and CS spray. Some people aren't too effected by the OC, but CS will do the job and vice versa. Very few are immune to both. Feeze + is just nasty.

Keep in mind that it won't stop somebody, but it's great to use as you get out of the line of their attack and get away.

Legitimate allergies are up in the air. If someone is asmatic, then they should know better than to push an issue and be sprayed. Positional asphyxia is the real danger and since you are not LE and shouldn't be arresting them/holding them on the ground-it doesn't apply to you.

You should (check satutes) spray, leave and call it in (BE the Victim, not the idiot who threatened you, got sprayed and wants to get back at you).
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 4:22:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Got a link to an incident where someone died as a result of being sprayed?? Not saying that you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing.


Remember the whole positional asphyxia controversy of a decade ago?

As for peoples reactions to OC, I know that the first tiem I was sprayed, it went down my throat and closed down my airway. Not a fun experience.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:05:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 6:06:42 PM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:08:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Got a link to an incident where someone died as a result of being sprayed?? Not saying that you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing.


Remember the whole positional asphyxia controversy of a decade ago?

Positional asphyxia isn't caused by any ingredients in oc...it's caused by being placed in such a position that pressure is put on your chest making it difficult or impossible to breath. IE hog tying..


As for peoples reactions to OC, I know that the first tiem I was sprayed, it went down my throat and closed down my airway. Not a fun experience.

That's because capsaicin is a vasodilator and it's inflammatory properties are a result of dilating blood vessels in the affected area. This increases blood flow and causes minimal swelling.
That's where you get the anxiety attacks from people with asthma..because it feels like they can't breath.


Yep what he said!!
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:34:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 12:41:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 4:51:06 PM EDT by Depidy_Dawg]
As a longtime OCAT instructor I want to put my two cents in. From FBI and DOJ stats going back to the first usage of OC, there have been no in-custody deaths directly attributable to OC application. Of course the MSM like to point out deaths after in-custody altercations, often times long after the use of OC. Remember the infamous "Police Chokehold"? Then it was "Hog Tying", see Cruz vs Laramie (I am intimately familiar with this case as I work with one of the officers who was involved in the Cruz incident). Of course the new villain is the TASER. I especially like the one that just happened in Canada whereupon the TASER was reported to be cause of death, even though the guy dies 4 DAYS LATER! First off, OC is not a chemical, that's why it drives me nuts when officers talk about "Decontaminating" instead of "Post Exposure Recovery". Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. OC is derived from the placenta of the Cayenne and Jalapeno peppers. It is an oily-resin and works quite quickly. Despite popular urban legends such as Samoans are not affected, and other dopey crap out there, some individuals show no ill effects when OC is applied. Having said that, I have not personally heard of OC allergies, not saying it's not true, just never heard of anyone having them. Look up the facts on Excited Delirium, especially when the dirt bag suddenly becomes calm after a violent struggle, death is IMMINENT! Whew, glad I got that off my chest!
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 3:47:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 4:50:19 PM EDT
Thanks, Striker.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 5:14:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
Having said that, I have not personally heard of OC allergies, not saying it's not true, just never heard of anyone having them.


Not trying to be confrontational.

One of my classmates in the academy had problems recovering after being sprayed with OC. He still couldn't see well enough to drive four days later. The academy sent him to the eye doctor that said it was some kind of allergic reaction. He was given steroid eye drops (weirdest thing I have heard of) and it fixed his eyes.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 7:27:45 PM EDT
I wouldnt advocate carrying OC for a simple reason: you'll be quicker to use it than a gun, and might misuse it.

Misuse of pepperspray is usually a felony for some stupid reason.

If you are sufficiently freaked out enough to use a less-than-lethal weapon, then try and get away.

If you cant get away, then that should freak you out to a level where you feel your life is in serious danger and then you should act accordingly.

The role of a non-police civilian is to avoid confrontation and only act when absolutely necessary. E&E until it becomes life threatening.

Cops are generally required to confront threats and have more of a reason for a sliding scale of use of force.

Pepperspray is something I advocate for persons who completely refuse to carry a real weapon (knife or gun) and cant imagine why someone with a real weapon would want to further complicate their minds in time of crisis by adding this choice to consider.

(Although, pepperspray is good to use when being chased in a vehicle...)
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:16:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 8:21:16 PM EDT by warpig8654]

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By spd1719:

Good advice and good posting. Sorry, but I don't have a link to any cases of OC involved deaths. I must admit that I was going on what our OC instructor taught and that was a couple of years ago so not only is my info dated, but it is also hearsay. I should add that he said that death could result IF treatment was not rendered within a reasonable time after exposure. Still and all, I see no reason to not be careful employing the use of any force for any reason. Spraying someone for annoying you would be the same as punching someone for the same offense.

That being said I should also note that since my dept received tasers I have since nixed OC from my belt. I still carry it in the car for any large group type scenarios, but for one on one encounters I've pretty much quit using it.

I've been a chemical agent / oc instructor for going on 6 years and I've never heard of anyone being allergic to anything in oc. Our training packages were provided by Armor Holdings and they don't even refer to any concerns with allergic reactions.
I'm not saying that there isn't someone out there somewhere that is allergic to oleo resin capsicum, I've just never read any documented proof of it.
The same goes for the "can't spray someone with asthma" story.
OC doesn't trigger asthma attacks. It causes panic, which can lead to hyperventilating..

As for you not carrying oc anymore. Why would you give up a useful tool for the sake of an inch or two on your duty belt?


The reason would be a X26. And yes, when trained, we were informed of ICD's contributed to OC. I have no idea what you will find on the Internet to back that up, but in none of my instructor documents have been sourced from the Internet. Sorry, but there is a lot of intel taught to LEO's that civ's won't be able to track the source.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:32:30 PM EDT
I just went through my OC training and we were instructed that most of the deaths were from another mitigating circumstance that the OC probably accelerated. The biggest threat I feel from the OC is the positional asphyxiation which I personally suffered. I will certainly think twice before using it. I can not imagining assisting someone who was in a confrontation with me just a few moments ago clean up. I feel that I would be more effective using personal weapons. It was also impressed that a common reaction to someone who is in the aggressive level on the use of force will be more likely to escalate the confrontation after being exposed to OC.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:50:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spd1719:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
Pepper spray is non-deadly LESS LETHAL force. That said, if it's not self defense it's considered assault.

It's a deterrent, and a good one at that. I'm no LEO but I do carry a 2.4oz can of Fox Labs 5.3, as does my wife.



Peppery Spray can kill. If you spray someone highly allergic to Oleoresin Capsicum (the active ingredient in pepper spray) they can most certainly die. Also it can cause people to panic and harm themselves during the course of that panic. If you are not properly trained in using OC spray, then I would discourage carrying it.

Keep in mind that if you use it, then you are definitely going to get some on you and suffer the effects.

I see no problem with carrying it, but using it to do anything but defend yourself from a persitent aggressor would be considered assault.

A quick story to illustrate my point: I got jumped one night in a local party district of town. My friend and I (both sober) were jumped for no apparent reason by two jock types from the local college. I was carrying (Colt 1911 Commander in Bianchi Widowmaker on right hip) and my first instinct was to protect my gun from being taken. Seeing as my friend and I both bounced at a local nightclub and had been in plenty of fights recently, we knew how to handle ourselves and the situation quickly reversed itself. The bad guys ended up on the ground and we ended up on top, holding them until police arrived. In this scenario, it was an equal fight between four people, it wasn't a robbery or a rape or anything, and personally I never felt fear for my life (no threats were made or anything). It was a case of mistaken identity and had I shot the guys jumping us I feel as though I definitely would not have been justified. However, if I had a can of Fox on me I think I would have been completely justified in spraying them when I got the chance.

That's the short version of the story, and I think it illustrates the small role pepper spray should play in the civillian world. If there had been a threat on my life or a demand for money the situation would have been different.



In that case throwing a handfull of peanuts could be deadly if the target was allergic.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 11:24:56 PM EDT
I personally don't see the reason to carry it.

Except for training, I've only been hit with it once. Myself and two other Officers were fighting a guy when one of m y buds (while we were on top of the guy) sprayed him in the face to allow us to handcuff him. I got hit with it and kept on fighting the guy. It wasn't until after the entire incident that I realized I was exposed and started feeling the effects. I wouldn't go as far to say its all psychological, but for me, until my adrenaline dump was over, and I knew that I had been hit, I didn't feel any of the effects.

Now...the suspect, LOL he hated it and I have to say it might have assisted us a bit in securing him.

YMMV...good luck!


Link Posted: 12/5/2007 6:37:40 AM EDT
I put mine away after we received tasers.
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 4:09:41 PM EDT
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