Werent the guns in waco registered MG, and peoplle point out that the 50BMG was never used in a crime, didnt they also use those in Waco

My first!

IBTL

Quoted: Werent the guns in waco registered MG, and peoplle point out that the 50BMG was never used in a crime, didnt they also use those in Waco

Yes Im sure the government used machine guns.

My first! IBTL .

Well you obviosly dont know how to use it

Quoted: Quoted: Werent the guns in waco registered MG, and peoplle point out that the 50BMG was never used in a crime, didnt they also use those in Waco Yes Im sure the government used machine guns.

+1

LEGAL machine guns is the key. Basically it shows that law abiding citizens that jump through all the hoops to get one don't use them in crimes. A police officer used a department issued weapon in the one instance where a legally owned one was used. There have probably been hundreds of cases of illegally manufactured/converted machine guns used in crimes.

Quoted: .

Use what?

Quoted: .

Damn why did you edit your post, it was damn funny.

there is kinda of a double meaning in my post

Quoted: Quoted: . [roflw]

I wanted to see how it played out first



ETA i'll put it back

Quoted: Quoted: . Use what?

I dont want it repeated

A far as I know, there were two instances of LEGALLY transferred and PRIVATELY owned MG's being used in crimes.  One instance was a Cop who owned his own MAC to kill a drug dealer (in what was likely a dirty cop trying to rip off someone).  Another involved a suicide by the owner of the MG (Must have wanted to do a good job).  Not sure if there are any more, but most people aren't going to use a $3000 to $10,000 firearm (let alone the exotics running $50k or more) gun in a robbery, murder, etc, especially people who have gone through the extensive background and fingerprint work to be able to pay the transfer tax.

AFARR

Quoted: A far as I know, there were two instances of LEGALLY transferred and PRIVATELY owned MG's being used in crimes.  One instance was a Cop who owned his own MAC to kill a drug dealer (in what was likely a dirty cop trying to rip off someone).  Another involved a suicide by the owner of the MG (Must have wanted to do a good job).  Not sure if there are any more, but most people aren't going to use a $3000 to $10,000 firearm (let alone the exotics running $50k or more) gun in a robbery, murder, etc, especially people who have gone through the extensive background and fingerprint work to be able to pay the transfer tax. AFARR

The suicide doesn't count!

allright guys back to original post,  The MG's that were used in WACO by the branch dividians were actual legaly registered machines guns, and the Barret 50BMG that was used was also legally purchased.  The double meaning was the FBI's mg's were also used in a crime as well

Quoted: allright guys back to original post,  The MG's that were used in WACO by the branch dividians were actual legaly registered machines guns, and the Barret 50BMG that was used was also legally purchased.  The double meaning was the FBI's mg's were also used in a crime as well

I dont recall ever hearing of auto or .50 fire coming out of the compound, I hear that it all went in.

I thought the 'illegal weapons' the dividians had were just some ARs.

Quoted: allright guys back to original post,  The MG's that were used in WACO by the branch dividians were actual legaly registered machines guns, and the Barret 50BMG that was used was also legally purchased.  The double meaning was the FBI's mg's were also used in a crime as well

You need to do some more research.

from what I recall the .50 wasn't used, they found it still dissasembled in the case.

Recovered guns at Waco

Guns Recovered at Brach Davidian Compound

Guide Extra --

The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUBJECT:      Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians
In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound.  In addition, a number of live grenades and
more than 300 grenade components were uncovered.  Hundreds of
thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices.  The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured.  The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified
to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and
silencers.  All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.
I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's
report on ATF's role in events at Waco.  
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:
   22   M-16 Type Rifles
   20   AK-47 Type Rifles
   2    Heckler and Koch SP-89
   2    M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.  
Silencers
   21   Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
   4    Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.  None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)
FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
   61   M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
   61   AK-47 Type
   34   AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
   13   Shotguns -- 12 gauge
   11   7.62MM FN FAL Type
   10   Mini-14 Type
   7    37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
   6    .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
   6    Assorted Rifles
   5    M-11/Nine
   5    M-14 Type
   3    Galil
   2    Heckler and Koch SP-89
   1    Air Rifle
   1    Heckler and Koch MP-5
   1    Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
   23   Beretta
   13   Glock
   8    Assorted Revolvers
   6    Safari Arms
   6    Assorted Pistols
   5    Sig Sauer
   5    Walther
   2    Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
   4    Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
   100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.
   11   M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
   219  Grenade Safety Pins
   243  Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
   200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
   21   Sound suppressors or silencers.  
Flash Suppressors
   18   Flash Suppressors.
Firearms Barrels
   17   M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
   8    M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)
   3    M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)
   1    M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
   2    Ruger. 22 Caliber
   1    M-60 machine gun
   1    12 Gauge Shotgun
   1    Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel
   1    Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel
Pistol Slides
   1    Sig Sauer Model
Revolver Parts
   1    .38 Special caliber cylinder
Bolt Carriers
   39   M-16
   24   AR-15
   2    MP-5
   2    AK-47
   1    FAL
   1    Unknown
Bolts
   15   AK-47
   7    .22 LR conversion
   3    M-16/AR-15
   1    FN FAL (1)
Bolt Assemblies
   3    M-11/Nine
   2    M-16
   1    AR-15
   1    MAC-10
   1    Shotgun
Recoil Springs and Guides
   3    Glock
   2    Sig Sauer
   1    Beretta
   1    M-11/Nine
Stripper Clips
   29   Stripper Clips
Accessories
   6    .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits
Hammers
   31   AK-47
   18   M-16
   12   AR-15
   4    M-11/Nine
   2    Sig Sauer
   1    Beretta
Hammer Springs
   3    AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs
   36   M-16/AR-15
   4    AK-47
Selector Switches
   9    M-16
   3    AR-15
   1    Unknown
Sears
   1    M-11/Nine
Auto Sears
   8    AK-47
   4    M-16
   1    FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs
   12   AK-47
Disconnects
   7    AK-47
   1    M-16
Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings
   17   M-16
   6    AR-15
   3    M-60
   3    M-11/Nine
   2    MP-5
   2    Sten
   1    AK-47
   1    Heckler & Koch
   1    M-14
   1    Smith & Wesson
   1    Beretta
   1    Shotgun
Ammunition Magazines
   289  7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type
   248  .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type
   108  Sten Gun Type
   88   .308 Caliber FN FAL Type
   72   M-14  Type
   61   Beretta Model Type 92
   58   .308 Caliber of Unknown Type
   28   Ruger Mini-14 Type
   22   .22 Caliber
   17   UZI Type
   16   USAS-12 Type
   13   .45 Caliber
   11   Glock
   11   MP-5
   11   Sig Sauer P226/P228
   9    Unknown Type
   7    .308 Caliber Galil Type
   6    Walther PPK
   5    9mm Unknown Type
   4    .50 Caliber
   3    .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine
   3    .380 Auto Caliber
   2    9mm Smith & Wesson
   1    AK-74 Type
   1    Grendel
Ammunition Containers
   220  Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)
   15   Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)
   4    Buckets (Varioius Calibers)
   1    Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)
Magazine Springs
   360  M-16/AR-15
   42   FN FAL .308 Caliber Type
   35   AK-47
   28   9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type
   15   Unknown
   10   M-14
   6    M-1 Carbine
   3    .50 Caliber
   1    Mini-14 Magazine
   1    Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.

Quoted: Recovered guns at Waco Guns Recovered at Brach Davidian Compound Guide Extra -- The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas.

Well, certainly, you can bank on US government pronouncements about the Branch Davidians.

... you fellas need to find the documentary: Waco: The Rules of Engagement and watch it

Quoted: Recovered guns at Waco Guns Recovered at Brach Davidian Compound Guide Extra -- The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just found that also, I guess I stand corrected but that is a shit load of firepower.  But the MG's the FBI had were used illegaly too

Quoted: Quoted: Recovered guns at Waco Guns Recovered at Brach Davidian Compound Guide Extra -- The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. Well, certainly, you can bank on US government pronouncements about the Branch Davidians.

SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians
In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound.

If I recall correctly, the Texas Rangers were the GOOD GUYS.
They left their perimeter posts for the FBI in disgust.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.  None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. Ends that argument.

yeper

Winston, thats a great film.

Quoted: Werent the guns in waco registered MG, and peoplle point out that the 50BMG was never used in a crime, didnt they also use those in Waco

1) No, that is one of the violations that the ATF was there for: unregistered machineguns...

2) The 50cal was never used and never found (understandable given the fire, alot of things were probably 'never found')... It was simply alleged to be present...

Quoted: Except for the minor issue that there was an FFL (with, IIRC, an SOT) who lived at the church there.  Our own ETH used to see Koresh and his folks as dealers at the Dallas-area gun shows. Not that having a lot of guns is illegal, but most of these guns were INVENTORY for an FFL. -Troy

Troy, they would still have to be NFA registered...

They were not...

They were therefore illegel...

Having a SOT does not exempt you from registering NFA items... He would have been able to transfer them tax-free, but not make them without being a C2 and paying tax/registering each weapon...

According to these dumbasses, .50 BMG's have been used in a few crimes. Remember the source, however.

Quoted: Quoted: The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.  None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. Ends that argument.

Except they said something like "22 M16s" in the "illegal" category, and 60-something M16s in the "total" category ... so were those 40-some M-16s legal or not?

Dave_a? Which reason for the raid are you repeating?
The meth lab? which they got all the toys from the army with?
The child abuse? which they got all the TV coverage with.
The "illegal"guns? Which is a 200 dollar tax matter and does not deserve anyone being killed over.


Just curous.

ISTR reading that this inventory was a result of ATFE's work, and they've never allowed anybody
else to look at their 'evidence' to get an impartial verification on it, or their allegations.

Also that they (ATFE) had gone through the rubble, did their investigation, then leveled it all, w/o
allowing any private investigations.

Hmmmmm......

This is the list of "crimes" the VPC attaches to .50cal weapons.

Criminal Use of the 50 Caliber Sniper Rifle

                 

"The simple fact            is that .50-calibers have not been used in crimes,"
          NRA spokesman            Andrew Arulandam, Associated Press, August 18, 2004        
         
In June of 2004,              Marvin Heemeyer of Granby, Colorado, plowed a makeshift armored bulldozer              into several buildings in response to a zoning dispute and fines for              city code violations. Heemeyer armored his 60-ton bulldozer with two              sheets of half-inch steel with a layer of concrete between them. He              methodically drove the bulldozer through the town of Granby, damaging              or leveling 13 buildings before taking his own life. Heemeyer mounted              three rifles on the bulldozer, including a Barrett 82A1 50 caliber              sniper rifle. ("Man who plowed armored bulldozer into seven buildings              in Colorado is dead, authorities say," Associated Press, June              5, 2004; "Armored Dozer Was Bad to Go," Denver Rocky Mountain News,              June 25, 2004)
           
           

         
In February of              2004, Donin Wright of Kansas City, Missouri, lured police officers,              paramedics, and firefighters to his home where he shot at them with              several guns including a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Authorities              discovered at least 20 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and              the makings of 20 pipe bombs inside Wright's home. ("Body is Identified              in KC Gunfight, Fire," The Kansas City Star, March 30, 2004)
           
           

         
In June of 2000,              Robert W. Stewart of Mesa, Arizona, a convicted felon, was charged              with felony possession of firearms for being in possession of Maadi-Griffin              50 caliber "kit guns" he was selling from his home, along with other              firearms alleged to be in his possession. Stewart has become a folk              hero among hard-line gun advocates and 50 caliber enthusiasts. He              was distinguished, among other things, by his assertion that convicted              felons have the right to possess firearms: "I don't care if he's a              mass murderer, he killed 50,000 people. He still has a right to have              a gun. A gun is just a tool." (MSNBC transcript, "The .50-caliber              militia," http://msnbc.com/news, May 15, 2001)
           
           

         
In April of 2000,              convicted felon Wayne Frank Barbuto of Salt Lake City, Utah, was charged              with attempting to sell two 50 caliber sniper rifles to undercover              federal agents. The government believes Barbuto manufactured the guns              himself. During a search of Barbuto's home, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,              Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents discovered more than 32 firearms              and thousands of rounds of ammunition. ("Sandy Gun Dealer Charged              by Feds," The Associated Press, May 5, 2000)
           
           

         
According to              the General Accounting Office (GAO), 50 caliber sniper rifles have              been found in the armories of drug dealers in California, Missouri,              and Indiana. A federal investigation in 1999 was "targeting the movement              of .50 caliber semi-automatic rifles from the United States to Mexico              for use by drug cartels." ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO              Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999)
           
           

         
On March 19,              1998, following an undercover investigation, federal law enforcement              officers arrested three members of a radical Michigan group known              as the North American Militia. The men were charged with plotting              to bomb federal office buildings, destroy highways, utilities, and              public roads, and assassinate the state's governor, senior U.S. Senator,              federal judges, and other federal officials. All three were ultimately              convicted. A 50 caliber sniper rifle was among the weapons found in              their possession. ("Prosecutor: Hate Was Motive Behind Plot," The              Associated Press, November 18, 1998)
           
           

         
Wisconsin father              and son James and Theodore Oswald were sentenced in 1995 to multiple              life terms for armed robbery and the murder of a Waukesha police captain.              The two had "a small armory of sophisticated and expensive weapons,              including two custom-made .50-caliber rifles powerful enough to assault              an armored car—which the two were considering doing," according to              the Waukesha county sheriff. ("Possible Links Between Robbers, Far              Right Sought," Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1995)
           
           

         
In the summer              of 1995, Canadian officials in British Columbia found a Barrett 50              caliber sniper rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition, and enough explosives              to fill a five-ton truck at a remote site. It is believed that members              of a Texas militia group planned to set up a training camp at the              site. Although at least one convicted felon was identified as a suspect,              the investigation was dropped due to difficulties in prosecuting across              international borders. The incident prompted one Texas Constitutional              Militia official to observe, "We are not all raving maniacs. I'd kind              of like to keep our lunatics on our side of the border." ("Arms Smugglers              Won't Be Charged," The Vancouver Sun, October 26, 1996)
           
           

         
On April 28,              1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in              suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and              the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper              rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver,              and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the              shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal              IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County              Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal              Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during              his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used              in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News,              May 1, 1995)
           
           

         
Branch Davidian              cult members at a compound in Waco, Texas, fired 50 caliber sniper              rifles at federal ATF agents during their initial gun battle on February              28, 1993. The weapons' ability to penetrate tactical vehicles prompted              the agency to request military armored vehicles to give agents adequate              protection from the 50 caliber rifles and other more powerful weapons              the Branch Davidians might have had. Four ATF agents were killed.              ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations              letter, August 4, 1999)
           
           

         
On February 27,              1992, a Wells Fargo armored delivery truck was attacked in a "military              style operation" in Chamblee, Georgia, by several men using a smoke              grenade and a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Two employees were              wounded. ("Two Armored Truck Guards Shot," The Atlanta Journal              Constitution, February 27, 1992)
           
           

         
In 1989, two              members of a church in Gardner, Montana, who were part of what ATF              has described as a "doomsday religious cult," were arrested and charged              with federal firearms violations. The two suspects had purchased hundreds              of firearms, including ten 50 caliber semiautomatic rifles and thousands              of rounds of ammunition, using false identification. ("Weaponry: .50              Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter,              August 4, 1999)

Watch "The Rules of Engagement"

The AK that the BATFE stooge holds up at the hearings is one of the ones they claim to have "recovered" from the remains.

It is SHOWROOM PERFECT.  No rust, nice furniture, still shiny.  

They expect us to believe that a fire that completely destroyed a metal door somehow left that rifle untouched.  Bullshit.

Quoted: According to these dumbasses, .50 BMG's have been used in a few crimes. Remember the source, however.

The only incident i am aware of with a 50BMG being used in a crime was a lovers triangle.  50 Cal shooter ambusehed his wife on her lunch break.

This is the one I was thinkng of: On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995)

It was featured promenantly on one of the tv news shows Dateline or 20/20.

Quoted: Quoted: The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.  None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. Ends that argument.

Except that little statement in the Constitution called the 2nd Ammendment. They were legally possessed per the Constituion, but illegal according to the ATF and our present Government.

Quoted: Quoted: The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.  None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. Ends that argument.

Except, no one other than a prosecution witness was allowed to inspect the supposedly modified guns.  The defense was not allowed to do so to see if they had indeed been modified to fire FA.  The BD's did have grenades, however.

Funny thing about the Waco firearms is that they never showed one of these burned up "machine guns" on TV...but why would ATF lie?