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Posted: 8/1/2009 8:52:37 AM EST
So I have a feeling that the state police either have reading comprehension issues or are just screwing with my FFL.

The state police came into his shop (3 weeks or so ago) and told him that he has to regester all receivers as pistols now. I didn't hear anything about any changes in the ATF regulations or state law so I called BS on it and checked the ATF's website. They've got a PDF file linked to their front page "Open Letter to All Federal Firearms Licensees" written on 7/7/2009 stating that receivers are to be listed as OTHER and not pistols. It doesn't get any clearer than that! So WTF, I've got a bunch of receivers sitting at his shop and it's now going to cost me $100 extra and they're going to be listed as pistol receivers!

Anyone else having this problem, any advice, who should I be pissed at, etc.......

link to the PDF file http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 8:53:08 AM EST
Yeah that's bullshit
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 8:55:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Yeah that's bullshit




Not in their view. Two "pistols" in a week equals more paper trail.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 8:59:29 AM EST
The receivers are marked as "other" on the 4473. You must be 21 to purchase "other" weapons. That's about as far as it goes with the similarities.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:01:52 AM EST
Didnt you know that the PSP can do whatever it wants in regards to firearms law? They keep a pistol registry for Petes sake.




Thanks all you Rendell voters too.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:04:22 AM EST
We are talking stripped receivers right?
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:08:58 AM EST


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=14&t=370209


Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:11:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By andrasik:
The receivers are marked as "other" on the 4473. You must be 21 to purchase "other" weapons. That's about as far as it goes with the similarities.

Plus you have to be a resident of that state now. My closest dealer is in a neighboring state. I usually have any rifles sent there. I also did the same thing with receivers.
I had 2 receivers sent there shortly after the feds changed the law and created the OTHER category.
The ATF said they could no longer transfer the receivers to me, as they could be built into a handgun. I had to pick them up from a dealer in my state.
I did, but it was a pain because the dealer here is 35 miles away.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:11:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 9:12:26 AM EST by WildApple]
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:12:33 AM EST
If your FFL logs them incorrectly, wouldn't the BATFE screw him?

Maybe that's their strategy.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:12:56 AM EST
Hah. About as ignorant as the average policeman about guns.
Betcha they think it's a "High Powered Assault Sniper Rifle Pistol".
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:15:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 9:21:07 AM EST by Tango7]
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:16:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused

I believe you can if its given to you by family.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:16:21 AM EST
One more note, I find it ironic that an AK47 prompted this whole thing.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:18:12 AM EST
Incidentally, you can turn a pistol into a rifle, but not a rifle into a pistol.

Adding a stock to an AR pistol is perfectly kosher so long as you add the 16" barrel first. Adding the stock first makes it an SBR.

I'd tell the FFL to send a letter to the state police telling them that he's following FEDERAL law and not whatever arbitrary rules the state police invent and he's recording all AR receivers as "other", not pistols.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:18:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


If it's a full rifle, yes. If it's a completely assembled lower, yes.

If it's a stripped lower, only from an unlicensed dealer in your state and only if your state allows such transactions.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:20:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


This ruling is akin to the ATF's decision that the pistol-gripped Mossberg "persuader" met the criteria for a handgun more than a shotgun d/t a lack of a buttstock, and as such was a 21+ firearm.

If you're getting a rifle, or an assembled lower, you should be GTG.


When the fuck did they say that? And how is it a "handgun"? Official criteria for a handgun is "designed to be used predominately with one hand". Explain to me how you operate a pump-action shotgun with just one hand.

And isn't a handgun with a smooth bore an AOW anyway?
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:21:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By andrasik:
Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


If it's a full rifle, yes. If it's a completely assembled lower, yes.

If it's a stripped lower, only from an unlicensed dealer in your state and only if your state allows such transactions.

I'm pretty sure stripped lowers can be given as gifts by a parent or relative to someone under 21.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:23:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 9:26:23 AM EST by WildApple]
So an 18 year old must fill out required pistol registration paperwork that states he must be 21?
Kid- I'd like to buy that AR-15 rifle

Gun store-Sure just fill out this form stating you are 21

Kid- But it is a rifle

No confusion there
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:26:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Didnt you know that the PSP can do whatever it wants in regards to firearms law? They keep a pistol registry for Petes sake.




Thanks all you Rendell voters too.


Yeah they keep a complete record of every thing they can .....Its also linked to your DL # for
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:29:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:33:11 AM EST
My FFL recently told me the same thing about stripped receivers having to be treated as pistols.

............
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:33:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 9:39:10 AM EST
Sooooo, is anyone else sick of these stupid little fucking bullshit games that .gov plays? Just curious.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:04:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By JesseJames:
So I have a feeling that the state police either have reading comprehension issues or are just screwing with my FFL.

The state police came into his shop (3 weeks or so ago) and told him that he has to regester all receivers as pistols now. I didn't hear anything about any changes in the ATF regulations or state law so I called BS on it and checked the ATF's website. They've got a PDF file linked to their front page "Open Letter to All Federal Firearms Licensees" written on 7/7/2009 stating that receivers are to be listed as OTHER and not pistols. It doesn't get any clearer than that! So WTF, I've got a bunch of receivers sitting at his shop and it's now going to cost me $100 extra and they're going to be listed as pistol receivers!

Anyone else having this problem, any advice, who should I be pissed at, etc.......

link to the PDF file http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf



Hey Jess,

I just talked to Cheryl @ Kerpers in Bowmansville, she said that she is supposed to treat a stripped AR receiver as if it can be built into an AR pistol, therefore she says that the buyer must fill out the additional paperwork for a handgun (and must be 21 to purchase).... However if an AR is sold in a completed rifle configuration, it is treated as a rifle, therefore the buyer only has to be 18 yrs old. She said that it is purely the wording and original configuration that put this rule into effect, because as we all know anyone can convert a AR into a handgun or rifle very easily, regardless of its original form.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:11:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 10:11:52 AM EST by Tannim]
So if you buy a lower with a rifle butt installed, does that bypass this asshattery?
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:31:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Didnt you know that the PSP can do whatever it wants in regards to firearms law? They keep a pistol registry for Petes sake.


Wouldn't that allow them to start tracking AR-15's that are custom built by their owners?

Funny coincidence there...

Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:37:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 10:37:22 AM EST by marksman121]
Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


This ruling is akin to the ATF's decision that the pistol-gripped Mossberg "persuader" met the criteria for a handgun more than a shotgun d/t a lack of a buttstock, and as such was a 21+ firearm.

If you're getting a rifle, or an assembled lower, you should be GTG.


When the fuck did they say that? And how is it a "handgun"? Official criteria for a handgun is "designed to be used predominately with one hand". Explain to me how you operate a pump-action shotgun with just one hand.

And isn't a handgun with a smooth bore an AOW anyway?


The ATF boys have too much time on their hands to be thinking this crap up.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:39:09 AM EST
I think that this has more to do with tracking stripped lowers than it does with the technicality of anything else. The state is probably gearing up for trying to pass a weapons ban, and they are going to word it in such a way that stripped lowers cannot be built if they haven't been assembled before the date of the ban going into effect or something.

I've been concerned about that particular avenue being used. States like that, tracking things like that, and trying to cover the truth about why they are tracking it makes me nervous, as it should you all.

There is no such thing as coincidences when it comes to government. There are huge mistakes, blunders, slight of hand etc....but nothing happens without a reason behind it.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:47:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


This ruling is akin to the ATF's decision that the pistol-gripped Mossberg "persuader" met the criteria for a handgun more than a shotgun d/t a lack of a buttstock, and as such was a 21+ firearm.

If you're getting a rifle, or an assembled lower, you should be GTG.


When the fuck did they say that? And how is it a "handgun"? Official criteria for a handgun is "designed to be used predominately with one hand". Explain to me how you operate a pump-action shotgun with just one hand.

And isn't a handgun with a smooth bore an AOW anyway?


Those Mossbergs are pistols here in MI under the BS state law, so are AUG's,Folding stock anything, and anything under 30" OAL.

Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:50:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ahiodsohi:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Didnt you know that the PSP can do whatever it wants in regards to firearms law? They keep a pistol registry for Petes sake.


Wouldn't that allow them to start tracking AR-15's that are custom built by their owners?

Funny coincidence there...



Yeah, that seems to be the goal.

We're trying to get PA Attorney General Tom Corbett to do something, but so far he hasn't.. He's a generally pro-gun guy.

Link Posted: 8/1/2009 11:34:21 AM EST
OK then have the FFL add just a stock and it is a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:17:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
OK then have the FFL add just a stock and it is a rifle.


That sounds like a good idea but I doubt that my FFL would be willing to do so..............too scared
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:19:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
OK then have the FFL add just a stock and it is a rifle.


That would be a good idea, except that the PSP are requiring a PA pistol form be filled out for COMPLETE AR-15s. It makes no sense.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:21:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By abpt1:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
Didnt you know that the PSP can do whatever it wants in regards to firearms law? They keep a pistol registry for Petes sake.




Thanks all you Rendell voters too.


Yeah they keep a complete record of every thing they can .....Its also linked to your DL # for


Yeah, trust me I know from personal experience.

Long story short, PSP Trooper "You dont seem to legally own a Kimber pistol"

Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:29:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused


Rifle? yes receivers that can be made into either a pistol or rifle? then they are being classified as pistols. Although the logic is somewhat circuitous, it follows.

I bet somebody built some pistols and got into trouble with them. And/or somebody pushed the issue on how they should complete the paperwork and got the answer we wouldn't want. I'm betting that, as usual with gray areas, that somebody got on the wrong side of the issue and forced a decision that eliminated the ambiguity.

How many of you guys know that won't take maybe for an answer? Especially an FFL who doesn't want to get into trouble and lose his license? He's going to want to do it the safe way, and now they've made the safe option, the only way.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:41:43 PM EST
This seems to be a clear case of an entire LE organization (PSP) actively attempting to step on citizen's second amendment rights. Laying the groundwork for confiscation too. Nice.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:49:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheKill:
This seems to be a clear case of an entire LE organization (PSP) actively attempting to step on citizen's second amendment rights. Laying the groundwork for confiscation too. Nice.


Yes, indeed, and they don't even have a basis in PA law to be doing it. Corbett needs to get his ass in gear and smack them down.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 1:57:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 1:58:26 PM EST by sic_ness]
The whole situation stinks to high heaven.

The PSP suddenly started, within the past few months, to harass FFLs about this, and ordered them to register ALL AR15 rifles and receivers as pistols.
This, coincidentally, would put all AR15s sold in the state on a list available to PSP troopers.
The letter (which I'm eager to get a look at) seems to be in direct conflict with ATF regulations, and in fact, the ATF has REJECTED some "multiple handgun"" forms because they don't recognize AR receivers as pistols.

From the below link...


Some more info and discussion here...
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-10/65038-ar-15-owners-take-note-immanent-psp-regulations-changes.html
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 2:12:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By WhackyPlague:
Originally Posted By TheKill:
This seems to be a clear case of an entire LE organization (PSP) actively attempting to step on citizen's second amendment rights. Laying the groundwork for confiscation too. Nice.


Yes, indeed, and they don't even have a basis in PA law to be doing it. Corbett needs to get his ass in gear and smack them down.

Corbett straightened out the PA non-resident CCW reciprocal licensing issues when the PSP contrary to the applicable law decided that non-resident issued licenses from reciprocal states weren't valid in PA.

Link Posted: 8/1/2009 2:24:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
OK then have the FFL add just a stock and it is a rifle.


If the FFL is a Type 01 he can't do that without being dinged for manufacturing w/o a license. Only a Type 07 or 10 can do that and sell the gun. Yes, in the eyes of the ATF, assembly is manufacturing.

The law has not changed recently; the ATF has updated the 4473 to show that more types of firearms than just "handguns" and "long guns" are transferred. For instance, suppressors are also listed as "Other" on the 4473, where before there was no way to record them properly.

A stripped receiver <> a long gun, therefore it can not be transferred across state lines they way a rifle or shotgun can. This is not a new law.

A stripped receiver <> a handgun, therefore when you purchase more than one an FFL is not required to send a "multiple handgun purchase form" to the ATF.

<–– 07/02
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 2:31:02 PM EST
The PSP handgun form is utter bullshit too... it's handgun registration, plain and simple.

FTF long gun sales are perfectly legal in PA. Make sure there is a rifle stock on it and it's considered a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 3:42:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 3:43:01 PM EST by JesseJames]
I spoke to a PA state constable today and he said the same thing everyone here said. PASP are telling FFL's to comply but there's really nothing in writing as of yet that makes it mandatory. I spoke to another FFL and he said that he registers stripped lower receivers as pistols but he never heard anything about having to register complete AR15 rifles as pistols too.

What a mess!

How come the NRA hasn't stepped in on this crap? I'm sure they know all about it, don't they?
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 5:40:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By lysm:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused

I believe you can if its given to you by family.


its fine to buy an AR at 18, just possibly not a bare receiver
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 5:17:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By glock21guy:
Originally Posted By lysm:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused

I believe you can if its given to you by family.


its fine to buy an AR at 18, just possibly not a bare receiver


PA state police are telling FFL's to register complete AR15 rifles as pistols.

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:13:23 PM EST
Sounds like there may have been a change in state law, or a change in policy by the Pennsylvania State Police. Just because LE is doing something in regards to firearms doesn't mean that it is coming from the BATFE, or that BATFE jurisdiction is the only factor in what a gun dealer in this state or that state may have to deal with.

This could be something (and probably is something) entirely of the Pennsylvania State Police's doing.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:22:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By JesseJames:
Originally Posted By glock21guy:
Originally Posted By lysm:

Originally Posted By WildApple:
So can an 18 year old legally take possession of an AR-15 rifle or not? What if they already have? Just curious......and confused

I believe you can if its given to you by family.


its fine to buy an AR at 18, just possibly not a bare receiver


PA state police are telling FFL's to register complete AR15 rifles as pistols.



This conflict should be addressed ........no?
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:25:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
OK then have the FFL add just a stock and it is a rifle.


If the FFL is a Type 01 he can't do that without being dinged for manufacturing w/o a license. Only a Type 07 or 10 can do that and sell the gun. Yes, in the eyes of the ATF, assembly is manufacturing.

The law has not changed recently; the ATF has updated the 4473 to show that more types of firearms than just "handguns" and "long guns" are transferred. For instance, suppressors are also listed as "Other" on the 4473, where before there was no way to record them properly.

A stripped receiver <> a long gun, therefore it can not be transferred across state lines they way a rifle or shotgun can. This is not a new law.

A stripped receiver <> a handgun, therefore when you purchase more than one an FFL is not required to send a "multiple handgun purchase form" to the ATF.

<–– 07/02
This.

The FFL needs a manufacturers license to add parts to the stripped lower before it is transferred

Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:39:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/3/2009 6:41:37 PM EST by motown_steve]
This is something that we all need to keep an eye on.

If the scuttlebutt in the PA HTF is correct, then Fast Eddie Rendell is trying to single handedly redefine the firearms laws and the firearms registration laws for the State of Pennsylvania without the input of the legislature. This sounds to me like he's actually directing the State Police to usurp a function that is beyond the scope of their lawful codified powers. If Fast Eddie gets away with this bullshit then the State of Pennsylvania will be ruled by a King, not a Governor!
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:30:31 PM EST
I recently picked up a stripped lower and did not have to fill out the handgun form. I would not have bought it if that was required...
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:41:22 PM EST
I tried to purchase a stripped lower in Oklahoma, I am a Texas resident, and I got denied for this exact reason. Since it could be turned into a pistol i was denied.

Pretty sure it has been that way for a while....
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