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Posted: 1/9/2006 9:20:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:31:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Nice to see the article on patrol rifles, to the best of my knowledge no agency in my area issues them, despite some stand offs with a rifle armed men intent on committing suicide who had the police pinned down at the front of his property (fortunately he killed himself without injuring an officer or his girlfriend who he was holding captive) and an incident where an officer chased down two men in a stolen car one of whom was armed with, I think, a mini-14. Apparently someone is going to have to be killed before we see long guns beside unrifled shotguns loaded with slugs (which a few agencies have around here).

- only people that have them in my department is a few of the SWAT guys. We (patrol) figure it will take some local citizens and a few of us getting shot up to get the Brass to change their minds about this.


How realistic are switch to slug drills? I've never practiced them as I prefer ARs (duh!) but is this something the average officer is going to be able to do?
- before the poo hits the fan, it is possible. I've done so during a barricaded shooter call while waiting for SWAT to show up. I knew I'd stand a better chance with a slug (though unauthorized) than with buck because of the range and terrain.


I also saw a reference to SLR-95, I can't picture a department in the US issuing an AK style carbine, regardless of it's qualities, because of the negative public image. Has any department allowed their use?
- Think I've read elsewhere that there are several agencies in the US that are running Ak variants due to conditions they work in.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:29:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I also saw a reference to SLR-95, I can't picture a department in the US issuing an AK style carbine, regardless of it's qualities, because of the negative public image. Has any department allowed their use?

- Think I've read elsewhere that there are several agencies in the US that are running Ak variants due to conditions they work in.


The average citizen would only recognize an AK if it was pointed at the sky on full auto. Seriously though, most people only see the wood-stocked third-world ones. If it had black furniture most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference from an AR. (Though maybe the coverage from Iraq has changed that a bit by making the M4/M16 more visible.)
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:07:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:47:55 AM EDT
My first job in patrol we weren't allowed to carry ARs. We could carry Mini-14s. They weren't as scary I guess.

A lot of smaller department out here in the west are carrying lever guns. Short compact lever guns in pistol calibers. Some like the .44 magnum best it seems. The short lever guns are easy to use and easy on the eyes.. for those politically correct moments. They also fit the Western image of the lone lawman with his rifle, not the urban commando with his machine gun. (Read that to say the are more politically correct in some places.)

That might be an interesting test / discussion. The merits of a lever gun over an AR....
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:07:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 6:11:53 AM EDT by Rich_Lucibella]
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:11:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
A lot of smaller department out here in the west are carrying lever guns. Short compact lever guns in pistol calibers. Some like the .44 magnum best it seems. ...


They'd probably be better off with a .30-30 instead. That would defeat body armor where the .44 Mag won't, and have a better trajectory for longer range.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:22:56 PM EDT
The last city agency I worked for required the shotguns to be stored in gun locks, mounted horizontally across the top of the cage, so they were out of sight. Rifles were not allowed. It was not conducive to tourism to have the shotguns where they could be seen.

Now that same department has moved them to the trunk so they are totally out of sight.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:00:37 AM EDT
We get 9mm SMGs loaded with ball only... No slings, lights, etc. allowed since that is a "modification". Because of that, nobody ever takes them out of the safe so we might as well not have them.

Every officer should have a Colt M-4 (a real one) with some type of optic and a light plus a good sling. It is just common sense.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:04:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FedDC:
We get 9mm SMGs loaded with ball only... No slings, lights, etc. allowed since that is a "modification". Because of that, nobody ever takes them out of the safe so we might as well not have them.

Every officer should have a Colt M-4 (a real one) with some type of optic and a light plus a good sling. It is just common sense.

Common sense is deminished in direct proportion to amount of brass worn.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:05:18 PM EDT
Man, this thread hurts my eyes! Our brass is fairly young, (Chief is in his late 30's.) They were very receptive to my arguments regarding ditching the mini's a few years ago. Now every patrol officer has his own Bushy A2 Shorty issued to him/her. Supervisor's have Bushy M4 in 14.5 inch (including the Chief!)

I feel for you guys and hope heads get pulled out of asses soon for your sakes as well as the public.

Jess
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:28:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 11:34:38 PM EDT by Mack2604]
I am blessed to work for a firearm friendly department. I have both an AR15 and a shotgun in a vertical rack in the car.
I did not see the article in question here as I do not yet have a subscription.
I am a bit suprised at the comments regarding transition from buck to slug in a shotgun. It can be done very easily and quickly if you practice it.
If you are restricted to shotgun only you need to practice it. Take a tactical shotgun course and get to know what the weapon will do.
I am not super tactical officer by any means, I am a firearms instructor with some experience.
As I have a choice of long guns depending on the situation I load the shotgun with 4 rounds of buck (in a 5 round magazine) with an empty chamber per policy.
If the situation calls for a slug one may be loaded into the magazine and the action cycled to chamber a slug.
Ammo should be carried on the weapon (side saddle or similar type) or on your person if your department does not have ammo carriers.
Buy your own butt cuff holder, bandolier or whatever works for you. A couple slug rounds in a pocket are easy enough to carry.
Get a bunch of birdshot, go to the range and practice until it gets good to you.
When you are comfortable with the process shoot with regular duty loads.
If you practice this you will see how easy it is to switch between loads.
Stay safe.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:58:29 AM EDT
I keep hearing about the "select-slug drill" but since I don't own a shotgun I've never learned what it is.

Originally Posted By Mack2604:
If the situation calls for a slug one may be loaded into the magazine and the action cycled to chamber it or it may be "combat loaded" through the ejection port.
This may be done at any time during an engagement. With the slide/bolt to the rear drop a slug into the port and it will fall onto the elevator, close the bolt and you have a slug chambered.


I understand loading the magazine and cycling, but if you throw the slug into the ejection port won't that cause a double-feed with the round coming up out of the magazine? And either technique would eject the live round from the chamber onto the ground. Is that just part of the drill, or do you try to catch it?


Back to the topic. I haven't seen the article yet (my dad has a subscription and Ii get them when he's done), so maybe this was included, but I just saw something in another magazine about the Remington 716? pump rifle. Looks like an 870, but is .223 and takes AR mags. That would seem like a reasonable choice for depts. that don't want a "black rifle" (though it is synthetic stocked, it looks like the average hunting shotgun). And it would feel familiar to officers that are used to the shotguns it might replace.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:52:07 PM EDT
Mike, sorry about that, I was typing and thinking about something else at the same time.
The "combat load" is for starting with an empty weapon or after the magazine has been expended.
We have to carry the shotguns with an empty chamber which is why I download by one round in case a slug round is needed.
If you need to change rounds and have the wrong type in the chamber, shuck it and load the correct type in the magazine.
I don't catch anything, empty mags or ejected rounds.
The point I was trying to make is that changing to a slug is no different than loading another round of buckshot.
I will not post after being awake for 35 hours anymore :)
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:05:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Denny_Hansen:
I know one department in the south (not at liberty to name it) that just placed and order for 40 Valmets.




Umm...where do they plan on getting them from? No Valmets have been imported for 15+ years. Even the Sako RK95, which was never imported to the US, is not in production any more.

Sure they weren't Galils?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:46:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:59:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 3:05:09 PM EDT by danpass]
Will the Mini-14 take a bit more dirt and still work than an AR (probably due to the bolt design/setup)?



Question:

If the 'Brass' won't buy the patrol rifle or fund it, can someone simply donate them to the department?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:26:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
Will the Mini-14 take a bit more dirt and still work than an AR (probably due to the bolt design/setup)?



Question:

If the 'Brass' won't buy the patrol rifle or fund it, can someone simply donate them to the department?

- Even if the rifles were to be donated, the department would have to be willing to hand them out to the officers. If that occured here, in all likelihood, the rifles would be given to SWAT.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 5:42:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 5:55:02 AM EDT
Problems with 12ga...............

Ammo, besides the limited capacity, isn't that easy to switch out, and requires "fine motor skills". Fine motor skills degrade under stress. It also requires the officer to know the step involved......... we all know that most officers aren't "gun people".

Aiming, 12ga has rainbow like trajectory. It is hardly a pinpoint accurate weapon at 100 yards, with slugs. (My employer still issues shotguns with bead sites.....................)

12 ga slug................ should be lots of concerns with "over-penetration". Even if you hit exactly what you aimed at, unless it is a rampaging elephant, the slug is going to go through.

AR's have the advantage of being relatively simple to operate, accurate, rugged, modular, easy to repair or maintain, and relativley inexpensive. Not many weapons combine all those assets.

Lot of departments are going to 12ga for "bean bag" or other specialty munitions. If a department goes to 12ga specialty munitions, they should not have any 12ga "conventional" ammo.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:33:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
Will the Mini-14 take a bit more dirt and still work than an AR (probably due to the bolt design/setup)?



Question:

If the 'Brass' won't buy the patrol rifle or fund it, can someone simply donate them to the department?


You have to sell them on it. We have two highways thru town and the guns they were finding in traffic stops were deadlier than the pistol and shot gun combo the officer had. The county seat is in town and the judges see the trash that travels thru they help with the pressure.

Our small dept switched to Ar15's in all the cars last year. The Mi state police had recovered guns that they give to small departments for use. One of the officers went to armor school and they were set.
The rifle length guns were changed to carbines. Flash hiders were added.
They have some real nice firearms now.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:40:11 PM EDT
I am lucky at my Sheriff's Dept. as I have a tricked out 10" Ar for entry, shotgun, and of course my sniper rifle. It is important that you bring this topic up to the brass and site the useful ness of the rifle. It is hard to get them to understand as they have the liability of every officer in their hands and most don't feel comfortable with some having rifles. Training is the key here. I am not fond of the SMG's as I don't like carrying around a 7-lb handgun as it was put to me once. With modern .223 ammo they get the job done safely.

Shotguns still have a place in my opinion. Mine carries 7 rds of 00 buck on an empty chamber. I carry a buttstock ammo carrier with a variety of loads that can go in first if needed. I have slugs, rubber buckshot, rubber slugs, and #9 birdshot if needed.

As to the lever gun, I have a 16" custom Marlin 45/70 with a picatinny rail, light mount like my AR, night sights, and a cool side mount sling built in the stock like my AR. It shoots really well and I would not for a minute feel undergunned with this at all! I can mount an Aimpoint or 4x Handgun scope in scout configuration with tact rings using a torque wrench. They both hold re-zero with this method.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 3:04:14 PM EDT

M1 Carbine - anyone use it?

I heard/read/and seen about the 12ga being such a flexible platform that all types and manner of rounds were being developed for it (such as the rubber slugs previously mentioned)
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 2:36:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
M1 Carbine - anyone use it?


- One of the smaller departments around here them as patrol rifles.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:56:07 AM EDT
Why would anyone not use an AR with M16s available from Ungle Sugar at $50 a pop?

Simon
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 5:14:04 AM EDT
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