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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/5/2006 1:37:48 PM EDT
I am looking for a decent optic for my patrol AR-15. I am undecided between the CQ/T and an Eotech. This would be for a patrol rifle only, and so the range would be under 100 yards generally, and most likely used for high risk stops, in progress felonies, and other general patrol rifle deployments.

A lot of information on the optics page refers to long range engagements and does not specifically address situations patrol officers encounter (close quarters engagements). We're not sniping people at 300 yards... I like the variable power of the CQ/T, but not the decreased field of view. I like the eotech's field of view, but lack of magnifying power at longer ranges (such as if I were to be on perimeter somewhere).

Any feedback on your experiences or products you use or have used would be appreciated. Thank you.

D.L.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:18:49 PM EDT
I've never used the Loopy, but can recommend the EoTec.

My concerns with the Loopy are leaving it a magnified setting then having the deploy it at CQB range, needing to put the optic and rifle in a case to prevent accidental magnification change, the size of the dot at 3x (covers a fair amount of target area), and to a lesser exent, battery life. (take this with a grain O' salt, see line 1.)

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:41:11 PM EDT
buy the eotech with an aimpoint 3x magnifier
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:50:21 PM EDT
I'm not a cop but I shoot a lot, take some classes and I play around with lots of gear. The EOTech is a LOT better than the CQ/T. I really disliked the Leupold scope when I tried it (on a 249). I would run an EOTech or Aimpoint, and if I needed magnification (not for shooting, but for looking at hands) I would get a magnifier.

FWIW I have an Aimpoint on my go to gun.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:12:57 PM EDT
I own both and like both. More importantly I shoot both. They each have their place and are not completely interchangeable. Right now the Eotech is on my AR, the CQT lives on the FAL.

Someone is bound to chime in with accolades for one of the ACOG variants. It is also a fine sight.

The CQT gets bashed a lot on Arfcom, but don't let that dissuade you. It does have a crappy mount and I'd be the first to agree, but buy the ARMS throw lever mount for it (same as you should for the ACOG) and it's OK. Mine mounts back up within 1 MOA; I take it off for cleaning every time. It also has short battery life, but it's not like you are patrolling with it for hours or days at a time. IMHO the glass is far superior to the ACOG and the circle-dot is great out to 200M, although I am partial to the triangle ACOG reticle. The CQT is also heavier, again this might not be an issue for you assuming short patrol and engagement times.

I wouldn't worry about FOV. Both sights ghost out pretty well at 1X. At 3x you don't care as much.

The CQT is a trade-off at CQB ranges, i.e. you are trading the speed of the Eotech for the availability of precision at 50-100M assuming you have the time to be that precise.

Where I thought the CQT really shined was in low light. With the Eotech more often than not you've got to use a light and leave the dot turned up. Turn the dot down too much and it gets washed out when you fire up the light. With the CQT dial up the magnification and dial down the reticle. Usually you can see just fine, if not fire up the light and the etched, backlighted reticle appears black and does not wash out. It is really sweet.

If you are always going to use a light, and 90% of your expected work is within 50M, get the Eotech. Otherwise consider the CQT.

No matter what, you should arrange to have trigger time on both sights, and let's throw in the ACOG, too, before making your own decision. Make sure that trigger time is at both 10 and 100M, and make sure that both 10 and 100M are run in daylight and low light. You will learn a lot and be able to make your own decision.

aa
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:55:39 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies so far. I agree that the CQ/T gets bashed a lot here on this forum. I work graveyard and will probably do so for the next few years. I have a dedicated m500 light on my rifle, and the weight of the optic is not critical for me. You're experiences with using the optics at low light are helpful. Thank you! I had not considered the reticle washing out with a supplemental weapon light.

The speed of the eotech is an interesting note. With trigger time and training, can the CQ/T be as fast as the eotech? I've shot with the CQ/T and the glass is top notch. Like I said before, I'm torn between these two. Any more thoughts and info. would be appreciated. Thanks again!

D.L.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:06:26 PM EDT
I would go with the EoTech, and look at adding a magnifier later on if you have the money and interest.

The second-to-last paragraph in aa's post is particularly relevant. Are there going to be times when a patrol rifle is used beyond 50 yards? Sure, but the huge majority of times it is less than 50, or even 25 yards, and under flustered and hurried, grab and go type circumstances. When I was trying out optics, I shot with a CQT. It worked, but the major turn-offs for me were its weight, small objective lens, and cost. I bought a 512 and haven't looked back.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:17:57 PM EDT
For what it is worth, you can shoot just as well with a red dot scope at less than 100m as you can with a magnified scope, and you can do it faster. Where the magnified scope comes into play is for watching hands for weapons. At 100 meters it can be hard to tell if a guy has a weapon--even though shooting him would be easy. USMC03 had that exact observation from a SWAT call out a while back.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:42:59 PM EDT
The fuzziness of the Eotech is why I sold mine.....I just didn't like the way it looked.

I prefer the trijicon tri-power.....no need to worry about turning it on during an area with adequate lighting, while it has the battery for use in complete darkness where the tritium isn't enough.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:02:06 PM EDT
I would go with the EO-Tech, that is what I use on my M4 and it works great. I did have a trijicon reflex and the EO-Tech is a lot better.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:43:23 PM EDT
I have an EOTech. It is nice, but you gotta remember to turn it on, adjust the brightness. I know that is a pretty minor thing to do, but I have found for patrol work that iron sights work the best. There is an arguement to be made both ways, and I go back and forth between what I like. I use both and shoot with both and have likes and dislikes about each. What I have found though, is that iron works best for a lot of patrol functions, when you need to get your carbine out and into action ASAP. Its just one last step you have to take. Again, this is just my .02.
That said, I really like my EOTech as far as optics go.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:58:07 AM EDT
On speed:

Inside of 50M the Eotech wins.

Outside of 50M in the day I always felt faster with the Eotech even out to 100M, but past 50M my first round hit probability went up with the CQT. I.e. the first hit was faster with the Eotech, but sometimes it tooks 2 or 3 rounds depending on how difficult the shot and conditions were, whereas if I had time to dial up the CQT (I always leave it on 1.5X to start, like the AUG optic) it sort of forced me to take the time to get that first hit, but in getting it I could have fired 2 or 3 rounds with the Eotech (not all hits).

At night is was exactly the reverse past 50M. Even with a big light with the Eotech it could be tough to find the targets at 50-100M. Remember you will not be firing at nice, obvious paper or cardboard targets. Your targets may have "contrast issues" I recommend training with low contrast targets (dress them in clothes or paint them up a bit). With the CQT dialed to 2 or 3X things got a lot easier at night.

Consider also this technique with the Eotech: keep your BUIS in the deployed position. Assuming you've got the Eotech right on the flattop (no risers, etc.) you can either sight through or over the BUIS and run it "full speed" so to speak. First and foremost this helps avoid the "crap, I forgot to turn my sight on in the heat of battle" problem. Secondly it can help the wash out issue. That M500 is a big light. If you find yourself with a washed out dot just transition immediately to the irons. If you get sufficiently comfortable with this you can actually keep the dot turned down a bit so that you use it with no light, then use the irons with the light.

Get some low light/night trigger time, especially since you work graveyard. That will help you make up your mind. If you really want to make it tough, do it while it's raining. You'll be ditching the optics quickly! (Irons rule in the rain!)

aa
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:52:09 AM EDT
If you're going to go with magnified optics, I'd go with an ACOG or, if you got the money, a S & B Short Dot. I have a NSN ACOG on my rifle and love it. BAC will work with it, but it takes a little practice. If you want a little quicker sighting option, you could throw a JP or doctor sight on top of it. I haven't had any experience with the TA31 or TA11, but there are a lot of people who love them also. Trijicon's customer service is great if you ever need anything fixed.

I had a holosight for a while, and ended up selling it after I got the ACOG. They are nice and have a good field of view, but they tend to eat batteries. The controls aren't the most user friendly either. W & E adjustments can be tricky sometimes also. Plus, they need an extra riser to clear the front sight and get a good field of view. The new Eotech that takes the CR123's and has a built in riser sounds like it may be an improvement.

If you want a red dot that's been proven, get an Aimpoint and put it in a Larue mount. I used one at a class last year, and changed my mind about them. The W & E adjustments work like they're supposed to, and the controls to turn it off and on are simple and easy to use, even with a gloved hand. Also, if it happens to TU in the middle of a call, you can use the sight as a ghost ring with the front sight. They also tend to have a lot better battery life than the Eotech.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:06:36 AM EDT
Can't speak to the Cq/T or EoTech. Seen both and briefly played with them.

I run with a trigicon reflex and use a filter. The thing is always on and always accurate. It takes a serious beating in the trunk of the squad and keeps going. Our agency doesn't permit magnified optics, but at 300 meters the reflex is very useful.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:10:35 PM EDT
Since I converted from the Aimpoint, I have become an unabashed fan of the EO Tech. I likey this mucho much. If you have one of these and a light, you're good to go for everything you'll encounter on patrol IMHO. While I could see some use in a magnified optic (like the Luppy), I'd go with the Trijicon Accupoint (the lower-power model). You can use it like the aimpoint, and the dial it up to 4x in the rare instance you needed to.

That said, I am perfectly happy with the EO thingy. Get the AA model.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:14:42 PM EDT
I have an Eotech on my M4 and for 100 yards in in it works great
I have a Leupold Vari X III 1.5-5 Illuminated Reticle on my 458 SOCOM. I lose some with FOV that I have with the Eotech, though it is nice to bump the magnification up a little and be able to see some smaller details
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:45:52 PM EDT
Again, fantastic information from everyone and I appreciate the time. It seems like Eotech has a lot of happy customers, and within closer ranges it is sufficient in providing speed and accuracy.

When mounting the eotech, it sounds like a spacer/riser is needed to clear the front sight post. If a riser is not used, is the eotech designed to co-witness with a standard BUIS? Also, whats considered a decent price for a 512 AA battery model? I see a wide variety of prices on Ebay and other auction sites.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:14:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By showstopr:
When mounting the eotech, it sounds like a spacer/riser is needed to clear the front sight post. If a riser is not used, is the eotech designed to co-witness with a standard BUIS?



A riser is not needed to mount it on a flat top, but it helps. The riser will place the Eotech up so that the irons are in the lower portion of the optic, rather than right in the middle. Larue Tactical makes a nice Eotech riser. Otherwise, check with some of the dealers on the board, maybe G & R tactical, to see it there is a projected release date for the new Eotech, then you wouldn't need the riser. Also, a LE dealer might have a little better price than Ebay.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:24:56 PM EDT
I have been using iron sights in patrol for years. Flashlight is needed for sure, even for dayshift when you gotta go in dark places. Our operators use Aimpoint. I have an Eotech on my personal AR and love it. Daywork is one thing but night firing is another. Just make sure whatever you get works in both conditions. And if your going with batteries change them out freqently so you know for sure its gonna work for ya when TSHF....
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:31:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hollywood304:

Originally Posted By showstopr:
When mounting the eotech, it sounds like a spacer/riser is needed to clear the front sight post. If a riser is not used, is the eotech designed to co-witness with a standard BUIS?



A riser is not needed to mount it on a flat top, but it helps. The riser will place the Eotech up so that the irons are in the lower portion of the optic, rather than right in the middle. Larue Tactical makes a nice Eotech riser. Otherwise, check with some of the dealers on the board, maybe G & R tactical, to see it there is a projected release date for the new Eotech, then you wouldn't need the riser. Also, a LE dealer might have a little better price than Ebay.



Some people need EOTech risers to shoot, some do not. I personally need them to be comfortable, but I can live without if I must. Another benefit of the riser is that it allows you to pull the optic off quickly. It is possible to damage or destroy the optics glass to such an extent that you cannot use your iron sights through it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:26:34 PM EDT
I've used/owned an Aimpoint Comp M, a compact ACOG, and 2 Eotechs.

Sold the rest and down to the EOs (512 on a flattop and 552/LaRue mout combo on another flattop).

I have played with the CQ/T. Found it big/heavy.

For what I do (patrol rifle, CQB out to 100 yds), the Eotech does eveything very well. Don't need the zoom of the CQT or the ACOGs.

I like the controls on the Eotech, the circle/dot reticle, and the compact size.

Lastly, will your rifle with optic/mount/light/rail system/etc fit in your patrol car gun rack/lock?

These 2 setups fit in my Big Sky rack, mounted overhead in a 05 Impala



Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:15:31 PM EDT
If you use a riser it eliminates the ability to simply center the front sight post in the window of the Eotech if you are in a SHTF sight failure mode. This works, and can be a godsend when you forget to (or refuse to) have the BUIS deployed and your dot dies (or washes out with the big light) with bad guys standing right in front of you.

You can get very good hits this way, it's a good thing to practice.

aa
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:34:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
If you use a riser it eliminates the ability to simply center the front sight post in the window of the Eotech if you are in a SHTF sight failure mode. This works, and can be a godsend when you forget to (or refuse to) have the BUIS deployed and your dot dies (or washes out with the big light) with bad guys standing right in front of you.

You can get very good hits this way, it's a good thing to practice.

aa



I have used an Aimpoint like that, with the iron sight in the lower third. In a simunitions excercise I once used an aimpoint with NO dot and NO front sight to great effect.

Works pretty well.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:55:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 7:55:38 PM EDT by fclark2]
I have one patrol carbine with an EOTech on it and it works very well. I also have a second carbine with a C-More sight that also works very well. I really can not offer an opinion on the CQT as I have limited experience with that particular scope.
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