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Posted: 10/30/2001 4:39:25 PM EDT
OMIGOD, so all those guys in cammie at the airport were just for show. Pretty sad.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:16:01 PM EDT
Well, new york state has`nt yet passed the budget (since april) so he has to be careful with the SPENDING........[stick]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 5:44:51 PM EDT
Bout damn time! I can not believe that we send trained men into a risky enviornment to provide security WITHOUT AMMO!! Hell, they should have a round in the chamber! What are they supposed to do, use an M-16 as a club?
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 6:26:55 PM EDT
maybe we should offer a group trade of ammo for rifles. whoda thunk they might need ammo for those firearms...
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 7:17:05 PM EDT
I flew out of KC and into Vegas last week...the military in KC had 9mm's but no M16 The military at the airport in Vegas were sporting very nice M4's with mag in magwell and full combat load on belt. impressive..HELL YES! medcop
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 7:25:43 PM EDT
It's about damn time. Where is the intimidation factor with an M16 sans magazine? Nothing like carrying around really expensive paper weights to scare off the bad guys.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 7:28:51 PM EDT
No wonder they don't trust us with guns. If they don't trust the army with ammo, how could they trust us. More liberal bs...z
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 7:39:03 PM EDT
New JFK motto: "Welcome to New York, Barney on patrol"
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 4:53:26 AM EDT
OR............BUY MORE LOTTERY TICKETS!!!!!.................[stick]
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 5:43:50 AM EDT
You guys are forgeting the NG guys that were relieved of their weapons by gangbangers during the LA riots. Its ridiculous to issue a weapon and not give them ammo. You they dont trust these guys to control themselves, they shouldn't be out there in the first place. What were they going to do if they got in a fire fight? Throw spitballs?
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 5:47:02 AM EDT
According to news reports, the National Guard at Los Angeles International are issued 20 rounds of ammo for their m16s.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 5:55:25 AM EDT
i just walked past two army/NG guys in Grand Central, they weren't even wearing pistol belts.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 6:08:43 AM EDT
From the title of this thread, I get the impression that it's up to the governor of each state to authorize the issuance of ammo to the Guardsmen, otherwise they carry empty M-16s'. In California, every picture I see of the NG at airports in the press shows an empty mag well. I've been tempted to drive to the airport and see for myself and even ask a Guardsman what's going on. I understand condition three in the sidearm for military, though I don't condone it for anybody else, but empty rifles are absurd!
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 6:21:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4: i just walked past two army/NG guys in Grand Central, they weren't even wearing pistol belts.
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One of the guard guys I work with, told me that sidearms are issued to officers only nowdays........
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 6:23:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2001 6:35:34 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Wow, so us CCW people should carry a few extra rounds to give the National Guard solders in the event that shoot out should start!!! And these are the same idiots that are running campain ads on the radio claiming that CCW isn't right for NJ or NY... right! The say "this would allow people to carry CCW to places like the Mall!".... YOUR DAMN RIGHT I CARRY CCW at the Mall! The whole purpose of CCW is to protect oneself, their family, and in this day our community from those intent on doing us harm! So here we see that the National Guard will point their empty guns at the criminals or terrorists and they expect them to run away in fear! Well, I assure you that I carry my Weapons loaded and if I pull it out of the holster I'll be dambed if I am doing it for the IMPRESSION of force! My bullets are the force I am counting on! Stupid people are running this show, I just hope that the their stupidity doesn't cost too many extra lives in the process! [b]Support your Local National Guard.... Carry a few loaded M-16 magazines in case they might need some ammo![/b] [soapbox]
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 6:40:12 AM EDT
This is not unheard of. Not sure if happens overseas with Active duty troops doing there "peacekeeping" or not, but I have heard of it for civil disturbances. Pulled a week of guard mount here in Michigan for one of our facilities. We had 16's and one 30 round magazine full of green tip. I haven't heard what they have at the airports though.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 7:11:26 AM EDT
Two weeks ago I dropped my Mother off at Westchester County Airport (White Plains). The NG guys had magazines (no way to tell if they were loaded). However, they had their M16's slung over the right shoulder muzzle down. Just think about how to get that rifle off of the shoulder and into firing position. If they needed it for real, they (and we) would have been dead. My Mother had some odd perceptions. The Westchester County Police LAV (a mortar carrier!? unless the command version uses the same body as the mortar carrier) parked outside got her attention. The first NG guy in BDUs really got her attention and made her nervous. However, there were a LOT of police (mostly Westchester County) that did not register with her at all. The NG in Grand Central are supposed to be paired with an NYPD officer. The NG is merely supposed to be an extra set of eyes. This may have something to do with NYC's very odd views on who should have guns in the city.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 7:20:24 AM EDT
The National Guard uses LAV's for counter-drug operations. ( I wondered WTF was going on when I saw one pull up at a parade we were in too...)
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 7:24:08 AM EDT
Actually Frances, this position is VERY quick to bring arms to bear if you are a lefty. Of course if there isn't any ammo in the mag, why worry about it? I'd rather carry a DeMarini bat than an empty AR. I wonder how many of those disarmed NG guys actually had privatly owned, loaded mags stowed somewhere. I know I would. crash.
Originally Posted By Frances: However, they had their M16's slung over the right shoulder muzzle down. Just think about how to get that rifle off of the shoulder and into firing position. If they needed it for real, they (and we) would have been dead.
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Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:01:49 AM EDT
What should a National Guardsman do if he sees a mugging in progress? The use of deadly force is well outlined for anyone who has ever served guard duty. This isn't guard duty, however. This is standing around in Grand Central Station, looking for anything "suspicious". On the whole, I'm not too impressed with the caliber of soldier I've seen out there, on patrol in NYC. I'm not against it, but I'm also not entirely comfortable with these guys being asked to use their judgement about deadly force, in this enviroment. It's not the same as walking a circle around the Motor-pool. Nuke plants, yes. Airport entry points and check points, yes. Bridges and tunnels, yes. Street corners, I don't think so.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:14:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I'm not against it, but I'm also not entirely comfortable with these guys being asked to use their judgement about deadly force, in this enviroment.
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I can't agree here! We are asking our National Guard to assist Law Enforcement. I assume all of us here beleave in the value of CCWs. Why not provide our homeland troups with ammo for their guns if they are in a position where they might need it! Now, if the troups are in a position where they don't need a gun, that is different! But if they are standing GUARD in front of a potential terrorist target, give them the GUN and AMMO and let them know what their rules of engagement are! For example..... "Guard this Football game.... If someone should start shooting, KILL THEM!" or "Guard this Airport... If somone rushes past security guards and is a threat to the public, KILL THEM!" It just seems to me that the rules are different now and we need to fight this war with both hands. Tying one hand behind our National Guard Troops back isn't the answer!
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:19:09 AM EDT
huh? ive served in the army trust me. you dont want them to have ammo...
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:21:22 AM EDT
Like I said. I'm not against it, I'm just not too comfortable with the situation. MPs get alot of training in this area. Cooks, Bakers and Candlestick makers don't. As far as CCW goes, I think it's great (as well as one's right)to be able to protect one's self, family and home with a firearm. However, would you be comfortable with having a complete stranger, with little or no training, other than a CCW, to be given this responsibility over you and your family?
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:26:00 AM EDT
And remember, NYPD are familiar with NYC and it's nutty population. NYPD rarely have to shoot, because they employ judgement that comes from experience.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:39:51 AM EDT
For Michigan, there was a list of requirements put out to qualify a soldier for this type of duty. Much of it was training that only an MP would have. I HOPE they are using good judgement in selecting individuals to do this, not just anyone who happens to be on a break from college at the moment. I don't see any value in carrying an unloaded weapon, unless maybe you give me a bayonet for it....
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 11:23:51 AM EDT
Like I mentioned before...the Military in Las Vegas Airport had M4's with mags in mag well and a full combat load of mags. They were using some type of tac sling and keeping the weapon at a low ready with hand on P-grip. These guys were ready for the S%@# to Hit the Fan! However, I don't think these were your regular NG or Reserve type soldiers (not knocking NG or Reserve - I was Reserve) medcop
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 11:40:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2001 11:37:13 AM EDT by Watch-Six]
oops..double post.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 11:42:03 AM EDT
A little ancient history seems in order on this discussion. In the early 1970's I was in an Army National Guard unit that was tasked as the state "riot squad". Yes, there were riots going on around the country at that time, mostly over the Vietnam war. The mess that happened at Kent State caused the brass to deny everyone live ammo. We had M16s with fixed bayonets, riot batons, and a bunch of other crap, but no real ammo. There was no way in hell they were going to allow another Kent State to happen. I also have walked guard duty many nights within the continental US on active duty with an M16 and no ammo. This was at active military bases while we were at war! That decision was a bad one then and it is a bad one now. If you can't trust your troops with ammo, why give them a rifle? Stupid politics reigns on. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 8:38:47 PM EDT
Crashburnrepeat: You are, of course, correct that an M16 muzzle down over the right shoulder is fast into action if you're a lefty. Its what I use if I'm not using a tac sling. However, the soldier was a righty (or really stupid) -- his battle dressing was on his left shoulder. Whenever I hear about soldiers on guard without ammo, I just wonder what the point is. If the suicide bomber tries to drive the truck through the checkpoint, without ammo what do you do?
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:12:51 PM EDT
This is window dressing, nothing more. The average citizen isn't going to notice that nobody's got ammo for their weapons (although a terrorist certainly would). The citizens feel safer with "armed" NG "protecting" our airports and other critical hubs, and that's all that matters to the decision-makers.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:18:53 PM EDT
The NG troops in NYC had been disarmed at the request of the Mayor. The Guv overrode the Mayors decision. NG troops in the rest of the State had rounds.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:29:53 PM EDT
I spoke to an Army National guard here in GA, the airport guards in Atlanta do have ammo. Just no mag in the gun but they do have 30 rounders on them. He stated it was to prevent any accidental discharges. Also in same conversation he had a few stories to tell about to odd .50cal having AD due to operator error, he called them dumb ass privates actually. He just got back from Bosnia and said they would sometimes have a magazine in and sometimes not. [beer]
Link Posted: 11/1/2001 2:24:24 AM EDT
consider this. almost all of the NGs called up were MPs. National Guard MPs have police powers in their homestates. they are thouroughly trained in escalation of force and situational control. they SHOULD have ammunition. they essentially state policemen in ugly uniforms.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 6:35:30 AM EDT
I went by my local airport in California to see if the National Guard soldier standing duty was carrying magazines and if there was a mag in the rifle. There was a twenty rounder inserted in the rifle and that fact made me feel better about the job they were doing. On the other hand, a local newspaper printed a photo showing NG reservists sitting on the floor of their building before a deployment and one guy had a Squad Automatic Weapon that he had pointing at another reservists' feet, (unaware and incidently) while the rifle was sitting on it's bipod and his finger was, of course, on the trigger. It looked comical to someone like me who is aware of the safety issues involved because of the total lack of discipline indicated by these troops lack of muzzle awareness.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 7:03:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2001 6:58:54 AM EDT by HKer]
There is a lot of speculation in this thread about they might this, or I saw that. The bottom line is that every state is different. I am (unfortunately) one of the lucky ones who was called up for security at the international airport in my area. The governor of each state (along with high ranking officers in each guard unit) determined the uniform that would be worn, how the rifle would be slung, whether or not magazines would be issued and/or locked, and whether or not a round would be chambered. So you cannot apply a blanket statement that will apply to every airport. The state also determined what points the NG would be manning within the airport. The FAA and the Fed's mandated that the NG would be posted at security checkpoints (which is no secret to anyone who has flown recently). If the state wanted to have additional security they did have the power to assign soldiers to additional checkpoints throughout the airport. This also varies from one state to the next. I obviously cannot talk specifically about certain things, but I can say that we do have specific orders about when should intervene in a particular situation. We also have very strict use of force standards and procedures. Many units that were called up are MP units, but my unit is one that would be better equipped to handle a SHTF situation, were one to arise. That being said, if you come into my airport you would find everyone wearing MP brassieres, you fill in the blank there. Hope this cleared up things a little bit. If you have questions, fire away.
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