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Posted: 5/22/2005 9:20:58 PM EDT

Tillman's Family Critical of Army Probe

WASHINGTON (AP) - The family of former professional football Pat Tillman says the Army disrespected his memory by lying in its investigation of his death in Afghanistan last year.

In interviews with The Washington Post, the Army Ranger's mother and father said they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country.

``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman told the Post. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.''

Tillman, a player for the Arizona Cardinals, left the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, they were sent to Afghanistan in 2004 to help hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden.

Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened.

The separate interviews with Tillman's parents, who are divorced, appeared on the Post's Internet site for Monday's editions.

Patrick Tillman Sr., a lawyer, told the Post he is furious about a ``botched homicide investigation'' and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting ``outright lies'' to the family and to the public.

``After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this,'' the father said. ``They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy.''

``In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family,'' Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks told the Post. ``For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes.''



Yeah, I'd be kinda pissed too if it were my son.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:34:33 PM EDT
Yup, I would say the same thing.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:38:33 PM EDT
If it's true, it's true.

I'd rather have the truth, no matter how hard it is.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:42:12 PM EDT
I still think he's a hero.

I hope that the lies behind his death and the political banter don't shroud the fact that this was still a young man who gave up everything to serve his country and died in the process.



Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:43:51 PM EDT
the lie? unforgivable (intentional or not).

fratricide? shit happens.

I just feel bad for his family.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:59:42 PM EDT
The lie (if confirmed) isn't a surprise. Pvt. Lynch was made into a hero and pimped by the military in hopes to get more recruits. Governments tend to do these things.

Friendly fire during intense combat happens, and will always be a tragic side effect (among the 1,000 others) of war. The family should understand this, but the government's lies are unforgivable.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:05:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_G:
The lie (if confirmed) isn't a surprise. Pvt. Lynch was made into a hero and pimped by the military in hopes to get more recruits. Governments tend to do these things.

Friendly fire during intense combat happens, and will always be a tragic side effect (among the 1,000 others) of war. The family should understand this, but the government's lies are unforgivable.



I know I remember the initial reports said she fought till she was out of ammo. Then a year later she says not true, her gun jammed and she hid.

Now Pat Tillman, I don't care how he died or who lied about it, will always be a great American.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:10:43 PM EDT
the libs are going to go even more nuts, but at least this time it will be justified as long as they keep their rantings to criticizing the lie
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:12:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By A_G:
The lie (if confirmed) isn't a surprise. Pvt. Lynch was made into a hero and pimped by the military in hopes to get more recruits. Governments tend to do these things.

Friendly fire during intense combat happens, and will always be a tragic side effect (among the 1,000 others) of war. The family should understand this, but the government's lies are unforgivable.



I know I remember the initial reports said she fought till she was out of ammo. Then a year later she says not true, her gun jammed and she hid.

Now Pat Tillman, I don't care how he died or who lied about it, will always be a great American.



At least in the case of Lynch, it was a matter of an intercepted communication that confused personal pronouns (she instead of he). It was a blond haired male soldier that fought like a tiger, not Lynch. The male soldier was since identified.

As far as Tillman, they apparently did know early on that it was friendly fire, yet they proceeded with his award, a Silver Star.

Bad form.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:14:46 PM EDT
Whatever seems like truth, is probably true.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:36:08 PM EDT
Tillman was an American hero friendly fire or not, lies or not. I feel for his parents, the truth should always be told, people understand much more than the government gives them credit for.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 10:51:28 AM EDT
bump for the day crew.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:17:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
Yup, I would say the same thing.



+1
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:20:49 AM EDT



So what else are they lying about at this point??

RIP Tillman.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:25:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 11:25:40 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
Here is what's been sadi so far in a post started earlier.

Not that I'm calling this a Dupe by any means.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=354283
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:33:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 12:20:51 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:34:57 AM EDT
+1, Lumpy.

So tell me, Mr. and Mrs. Tillman; how does your acting like a bunch of nitwits HELP your son's legacy?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:39:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 11:40:52 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

They blew up their poster boy.''




Funny the amazing number of people that had never heard of "The Poster Boy" until after his death.

Way to minimize your son's decision to give up cash for serving his country to being nothing more than the Army's "blond with big tits."

Actually that's a good observation.

Pat Tillman kept an EXTREMELY low profile, was NEVER used as a "poster boy" by the US Military at ALL.

He went in as a no-name grunt to serve his country just like every other no-name grunt he served alongside.

I don't EVER remember the US Military making ANY kind of notice of "Pat Tillman" among their ranks in any recruitment efforts.

It was the US MEDIA and word-of-mouth forums like this who spread the "legend" of Pat Tillman's sacrifice in giving up a guaranteed multimillion dollar football contract to join the Army.


Got me rethinking the father's comments.......

ETA: This thread beat the other by over eight hours.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:40:11 AM EDT
Its a father speaking from grief and anger. I'll cut him some slack.

Tillman died in the service of his country. That's good enuf for me.

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:42:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 11:43:40 AM EDT by markm]
I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment. This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil.

My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:44:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment. This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil.

My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.



So...what does that make Tillman to you???

Victim, hero, or idiot (i.e., not as smart as you??)



Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:47:34 AM EDT
Wow... that's just about as assed up as it can get. I'll bet people in DU are loving this one... as well as all the other anti-war hippie homos out there.

That is pretty much par for the .gov course of lies and deceit though... they're just playing through to the next hole.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 11:48:57 AM EDT
In WW2 people were lucky to get any information at all.

"On May 26, 1944, the beachhead at Anzio/Nettuno ceased to exist. It had now become a bridgehead. British and American troops had broken out and were pushing forward to cut the retreat of Kesselring's forces on Route 6, the main highway leading to Rome. A few minutes after noon on the 26th on the outskirts of Cori, a squadron of five American P-40 fighter-bombers of the 99th Fighter Group, US 12th Air Force, flew over the Anzio/Nettuno area, turned back and prepared for a strafing run. Soldiers of the US 15th Infantry froze in terror as bombs started falling in their midst. Within seconds, 120 men were either dead or wounded. The 2nd Battalion of the 15th Infantry, US 3rd Division, suffered seventy-two casualties. A number of bombs hit their jeeps which were loaded with ammunition and the exploding 37mm anti-tank shells caused additional casualties; some of the bodies were never found. This held up the advance to Giuglianello for five to six hours. A week later, headlines in the 'Stars and Stripes' proclaimed "American troops at Anzio bombed by Germans flying American planes". This incident has been covered up for over fifty years, the 12th Airforce never having admitted its error. One of the many witnesses to this tragedy was ex-Corporal Robert Steele, of Cannon Company, 15th Infantry Regiment, who now lives in Columbus, Georgia."
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 12:21:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
So...what does that make Tillman to you???

Victim, hero, or idiot (i.e., not as smart as you??)



Tillman is a Hero in my book. It's just a shame that his death has to be tainted with all of this nonsense.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 12:41:59 PM EDT
I don't perceive this issue as having anything to do with questioning anything about Tillman's service. It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 12:46:42 PM EDT
How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire?

A week?

Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long.

I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military. When will people be fed up with this ruse?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:05:17 PM EDT
He's a hero no matter how he died... But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:06:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 1:08:50 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire?

A week?

Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long.

I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military. When will people be fed up with this ruse?



You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths.

It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this.

The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider.

IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know.

Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that.

And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred.

This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:08:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire?

A week?

Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long.

I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military. When will people be fed up with this ruse?



You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths.

It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this.

The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider.

IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death.

Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that.

And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred.

This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win.



good points.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:26:08 PM EDT

After giving it more thought and reading some of the insights posted here, Pat Tillman's parents are beginning to sound more and more like Nick Berg's parents.



Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:36:04 PM EDT

a "botched homicide investigation'' ........
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:38:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 1:39:01 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
After giving it more thought and reading some of the insights posted here, Pat Tillman's parents are beginning to sound more and more like Nick Berg's parents.






Look I feel for the father but he is being more than unfair.

The last thing the US Army wanted was a dead Pat Tillman. Pat Tillman knew exactly what he was doing this was his second combat tour. The US Army had offered to give Tillman special treatment after his first tour and let him out of the Army. Tillman said no that he want to complete his time like everybody else, he wanted no special treatment.

To put it simply Pat Tillman’s father is saying the US Army should have treated his case special, and given Tillman’s death special treatment that no other solider would get.

From a fathers point of view I understand his confusion… that makes Pat Tillman’s father no less wrong.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:38:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire?

A week?

Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long.

I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military. When will people be fed up with this ruse?



You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths.

It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this.

The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider.

IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know.

Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that.

And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred.

This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win.


I listened to a discussion on a local radio station this morning (WBAP, The Mark Davis Show), and a retired Marine called in. He said he had served in combat, his father retired as a Sergeant Major and served in Viet Nam, and he had several uncles who had all served in combat. I guess he provided all this background to say that he was well aware of what happens in combat and how easily friendly fire accidents can happen.

He went on to say that he felt that although the government needs to keep track of friendly fire deaths (for traing purposes at the very least), no parent benefits from knowing that it was a friendly fire incident that caused the death of their son or daughter. His larger point was that that child died as a result of serving honorably in the military, in a theater of war, and being involved in a firefight. Knowing that that child died honorably should be enough, and in fact makes it easier for the family in grieving their loss. I thought he made some very good points.

He went on to try to describe how chaotic a firefight can be, and how easily a friendly fire incident can occur. I've never served, but was reminded of the saying (and signature line of some on the gun forums): "Everyone has a plan-until the first rifle round whizzes by your head."

Back to the government spin/propaganda efforts. As is often the case in all things, military or otherwise, once a story is spun there is almost certainly more damage done when the truth becomes known. I believe the overwhelming majority of Americans would have accepted the facts of both Lynch's and Tillman's stories if they were reported truthfully at the outset. There are no shortages of heroic actions occurring within our military daily-trying to concoct a "better than life" account for recruiting or other purposes is a sure recipe for trouble.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:52:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theliberating1:
But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about.



I wonder more about when they actually tell the truth... simplifies things a bit.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:55:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By theliberating1:
But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about.



I wonder more about when they actually tell the truth... simplifies things a bit.



When did the Goverment lie in this case?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:57:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By theliberating1:
But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about.



I wonder more about when they actually tell the truth... simplifies things a bit.



When did the Goverment lie in this case?



To some, not knowing the truth, or waiting to announce it until you are sure is the same as a lie. I feel for Tillman's parents, but I also feel their son would be ashamed of the way they're acting.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 2:57:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
When did the Goverment lie in this case?



Did you even read the article?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 3:27:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 7:14:25 PM EDT
I guess I'm reading something different because it seems pretty clear to me. They said he died heroically in battle and then "after a public memorial service" they told his father he was killed by his own soldiers. What more do you need?



From personal experience, I can tell you the "Army" has a habit of handling bad news of injuries/death in combat zones without putting a whole lot of thought into it. The asshats that called my wife didn't have any information in when they notifed her I had gotten "blown up". They didn't know anything regarding my vitals and told her they weren't sure if I was a live or dead. Naturally she freaked out. I know other wives who have been dealt the same lousy hand.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:37:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

"They blew up their poster boy.''




Funny the amazing number of people that had never heard of "The Poster Boy" until after his death.

Way to minimize your son's decision to give up cash for serving his country to being nothing more than the Army's "blond with big tits."



+1



It pains me to say this, but in addition to the frustration over the loss of his son, it sounds like dad is a little upset that his meal ticket is gone.


I can't imagine saying such things if I were in his shoes.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:52:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:53:40 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
I guess I'm reading something different because it seems pretty clear to me. They said he died heroically in battle and then "after a public memorial service" they told his father he was killed by his own soldiers. What more do you need?



From personal experience, I can tell you the "Army" has a habit of handling bad news of injuries/death in combat zones without putting a whole lot of thought into it. The asshats that called my wife didn't have any information in when they notifed her I had gotten "blown up". They didn't know anything regarding my vitals and told her they weren't sure if I was a live or dead. Naturally she freaked out. I know other wives who have been dealt the same lousy hand.



Oh come on... an incident that took place on the other side of the world at night...

What you read in that story is opinion with no supporting fact…

The officers that initially notified the family would have had no way to know this was a friendly fire incident…

It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military NEVER denied this. This is what happen...

AS SOON AS the preliminary investigation was finished the Army notified the family… this is what happen in this case. WHY would the Army make statements to any body before the investigation was done?

I feel bad for the family but they are simply wrong.

Go back and look at the stories at the time I have, in none of them do you find any correlation to what the family now claims the US Army publicly did and what they Army actually did. After the initial death announcements/reports in the first few days (at that time no one would have known but Tillman’s own men) the Army made no claims as to how Tillman died. Go back and look at the reporting if you do not believe me.

What you suppose is not evidence of anything…

Show me where the Government lied. Not what you think might have happen but when and where.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:52:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

"They blew up their poster boy.''




Funny the amazing number of people that had never heard of "The Poster Boy" until after his death.

Way to minimize your son's decision to give up cash for serving his country to being nothing more than the Army's "blond with big tits."




Umm if you ever watched any NFL football games. (I know not many of you do but millions others do) they did tributes to him all the time. Showed him in training and talked about what a great thing he was doing. It was a big sports issue.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:58:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Oh come on... an incident that took place on the other side of the world at night...

It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military NEVER denied this. This is what happen...

AS SOON AS the preliminary investigation was finished the Army notified the family… this is what happen in this case. WHY would the Army make statements to any body before the investigation was done?



Makes sense...
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 2:10:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:18:51 AM EDT
To add to geegee's comments that same caller stated that friendly fire accounted for 30% of casualties in Nam and as high as 70% in WWII. There were several incidents in Gulf War I that made the news also. The fact that they have been as low as they have been so far is amazing. ( low as in the number we know about)
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:22:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I still think he's a hero.

I hope that the lies behind his death and the political banter don't shroud the fact that this was still a young man who gave up everything to serve his country and died in the process.






Thats about all that needs to be said.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:23:17 AM EDT
Some of you need to lay off the parent's they lost their son, he was blown up as a poster boy for the war effort, however he still died as a hero as any troop during time of war.

I mean our goverment is just like any other they need propaganda. Any one recall the fake hostage rescue? And now she does speeches etc.

It's part of the game they play.

Either way he died a hero and his father has every right to be angry over the loss of his son. He knew his son far better than any of us.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:26:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:33:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 5:29:05 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
And the Left will giddily celebrate and repeat every single bitter, tear stained word from Mr. Tillman's mouth.
Remember how they celebrated the pundits who called Pat Tillman an "idiot"?
Now they are pretending to be "supportive" of Mr. Tillman's grief.

They HATE heros. Listen to the silence, as the media ignores individuals who distinguish themselves on the battlefield as "heros".
But any chance to portray a soldier or Marine as a VICTIM....

...oh boy.

They jump at it.
The Left HATED Tillman. They had nightmares of all the athletic, football playing Tillmans who used to torment them in the hallways of their High Schools (or more likely just ignore them).
When Tillman dropped his NFL contract to enlist, they all just rolled their eyes and made sarcastic comments.
When he died, they laughed, called him an idiot and said "See?, we told you so...".

But now that they can capitalize on a father's grief, and an unfortunate tragedy...

...they can make Tillman into what they admire most: a victim.
Just like them.

<­BR>



Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:39:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

"They blew up their poster boy.''




Funny the amazing number of people that had never heard of "The Poster Boy" until after his death.

Way to minimize your son's decision to give up cash for serving his country to being nothing more than the Army's "blond with big tits."




Umm if you ever watched any NFL football games. (I know not many of you do but millions others do) they did tributes to him all the time. Showed him in training and talked about what a great thing he was doing. It was a big sports issue.




And this changes what I said how?




You said it was an amazing number of people that had not heard of it. Almost everyone that watch NFL the year before he was killed knew about it.

It cannot possibly change what you said but it can make substance a little less valid.

Not many here watch sports so don;t give a crap. But it was a huge story before death.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:58:21 AM EDT
It seems the parents are extremely grief stricken and are blaming everybody right now. I don't want to ever be in their shoes. It's a sad, sad fact that fratracide happens in every war. It may be that fact that the parents can't accept. I read where Pat's mother wants everyone invoved to be prosecuted all the way down to the ones who did the actual shooting. I don't really agree with that.

I hate to see this played out in the media. Pat never wanted any attention for his actions when he was alive and I doubt he would want it now either. No matter the manner of his death he is a hero, as are all those that have served honorably in harm's way.
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