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Posted: 11/21/2012 6:34:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 6:47:09 AM EST by VooDoo3dfx]

You can bet that even as Hamas and its sponsors are recovering from the shock of clanging into Israel’s new missile shield, they are contemplating fresh ways to kill us. Those drafting the Pillar of Defense ceasefire terms mustn’t make it easy for them


http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-dangerous-success-of-iron-dome/

Whatever happened to the laser defense they were testing?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:40:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

You can bet that even as Hamas and its sponsors are recovering from the shock of clanging into Israel’s new missile shield, they are contemplating fresh ways to kill us. Those drafting the Pillar of Defense ceasefire terms mustn’t make it easy for them


http:// http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-dangerous-success-of-iron-dome/

Whatever happened to the laser defense they were testing?

According to Wiki the Izzies didn't think it was feasible. USN is still developing it though. I couldn't find the article source listed so take it for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:41:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:42:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

You can bet that even as Hamas and its sponsors are recovering from the shock of clanging into Israel’s new missile shield, they are contemplating fresh ways to kill us. Those drafting the Pillar of Defense ceasefire terms mustn’t make it easy for them


http:// http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-dangerous-success-of-iron-dome/

Whatever happened to the laser defense they were testing?


Das link was bad. Fixed above.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:43:22 AM EST
Now that they played there hand I sure future options are open.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:45:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

You can bet that even as Hamas and its sponsors are recovering from the shock of clanging into Israel’s new missile shield, they are contemplating fresh ways to kill us. Those drafting the Pillar of Defense ceasefire terms mustn’t make it easy for them


http:// http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-dangerous-success-of-iron-dome/

Whatever happened to the laser defense they were testing?


Was it the laser system that was supposed to be finished research in 2015? Or was that another Missle Defence system? I saw it on here the other day and I cant remember
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:46:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:14:53 AM EST
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:15:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


another libtard claim bits the dust. but they will never ever admit to it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:16:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:17:22 AM EST
Star Wars!
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:17:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:20:15 AM EST
Success knocking attacks down somehow doesn't seem "dangerous" to me.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:21:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money credit we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.


FIFY
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:21:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.

Ok, but honest question. What about up front cost versus per-round cost. I believe the Airborne chemical laser fires for like $2000 per round.

How much for a missile? $50,000? $500,000? If the laser system works as well, costs three times as much to build but can fire for 1/10 the cost

which is really better?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:22:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


This.

Hamas as a lot more rockets than the Izzy's has sheild rockets
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:22:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.


The problem with it is the COST makes the protection temporary.

Shooting a $10,000 missile at at $1000 dollar rocket is only effective for so long. The high cost means that there is a limited supply.

I agree the cost is worthwhile, but how long can/will the missiles last vs the barrage of cheap rockets? Almost always the answer is, not long enough.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:25:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 7:25:24 AM EST by LowBeta]
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.



It is a huge problem. Logistics. How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:25:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.

Ok, but honest question. What about up front cost versus per-round cost. I believe the Airborne chemical laser fires for like $2000 per round.

How much for a missile? $50,000? $500,000? If the laser system works as well, costs three times as much to build but can fire for 1/10 the cost

which is really better?


Lets put it this way;

The best hand gun in the world is $5000, with it you get a life time supply of ammo.

You have to save for 5 years then you can buy it.

Or you can buy a glock tomorrow, but you have to buy your own ammo.


Before you decide; you will have a home invasion 1 year from now.

Which one are you going to buy?

Obviously hugly simplified, but the point is still there.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:27:03 AM EST
Is Hamas still using Katyusha rockets or have they implemented something more advanced?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:29:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.



I'm a cynic about this.

I would think the best Israeli strategy would be to paint Hamas and it's assets with lasers for pin-point surgical strikes.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:29:50 AM EST
Can't they use those 20mm or 30mm Phalanx systems?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:30:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


What's the dollar amount of a human life?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:32:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.

Ok, but honest question. What about up front cost versus per-round cost. I believe the Airborne chemical laser fires for like $2000 per round.

How much for a missile? $50,000? $500,000? If the laser system works as well, costs three times as much to build but can fire for 1/10 the cost

which is really better?


Each missile is 40k a piece.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:35:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By OverBored:
Can't they use those 20mm or 30mm Phalanx systems?


The real problem with lasers or cannons is lack of warhead destruction. They can certainly disable the missile, but not blast it into tiny pieces. They also have a harder time dealing with multiple targets, and have a shorter range. Which means you can't engage the target till its over the area your protecting. Which means its even more likely that a warhead will still fall on you.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:36:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.


I sure that as soon as we have a laser system working you can be sure Israel will get it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:38:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


What's the dollar amount of a human life?


In that case why bitch and moan about Obama care? Its only money, right?

Or maybe its actually possible to spend so much money that you end up reducing the quality of life?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:40:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By FunYun1983:
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


What's the dollar amount of a human life?


In that case why bitch and moan about Obama care? Its only money, right?

Or maybe its actually possible to spend so much money that you end up reducing the quality of life?


Cause they're the same.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 7:43:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.


The problem with it is the COST makes the protection temporary.

Shooting a $10,000 missile at at $1000 dollar rocket is only effective for so long. The high cost means that there is a limited supply.

I agree the cost is worthwhile, but how long can/will the missiles last vs the barrage of cheap rockets? Almost always the answer is, not long enough.


Once the cost becomes too great the ground game will begin.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:27:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Originally Posted By ceverett:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do. They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.

Ok, but honest question. What about up front cost versus per-round cost. I believe the Airborne chemical laser fires for like $2000 per round.

How much for a missile? $50,000? $500,000? If the laser system works as well, costs three times as much to build but can fire for 1/10 the cost

which is really better?

IF being the operative word. If it costs 100x as much to build, and doesn't work as well, not so good. From their perspective, going with proven technology is very understandable.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:28:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By JoshAR:
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


This.

Hamas as a lot more rockets than the Izzy's has sheild rockets

One of the brilliant pieces of the Izzy system is that it only will engage rockets headed for populated areas.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:29:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.


The problem with it is the COST makes the protection temporary.

Shooting a $10,000 missile at at $1000 dollar rocket is only effective for so long. The high cost means that there is a limited supply.

I agree the cost is worthwhile, but how long can/will the missiles last vs the barrage of cheap rockets? Almost always the answer is, not long enough.

Long enough to send a few thousand palestinians to meet Allah. Which is probably long enough.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:31:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work! It's a fantasy!



LOL, so true.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:33:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 8:45:10 AM EST by paris-dakar]
Originally Posted By scrum:
Success knocking attacks down somehow doesn't seem "dangerous" to me.


It's 'dangerous' if you're a Hamas/Hezbollah sympathizer and hope to use the threat of rocket attacks to bully the Israelis into 'concessions'.

Same basic 'destabilization' reasoning the Left used to discredit the Reagan arms build-up during the Cold War.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:34:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 8:36:31 AM EST by Quarterbore]
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:34:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 8:37:10 AM EST by paris-dakar]
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.


The problem with it is the COST makes the protection temporary.

Shooting a $10,000 missile at at $1000 dollar rocket is only effective for so long. The high cost means that there is a limited supply.

I agree the cost is worthwhile, but how long can/will the missiles last vs the barrage of cheap rockets? Almost always the answer is, not long enough.


Iron Dome has the capability to determine the landing area of the rocket and only fires if the rocket is going to cause damage.

I've been reading about it, it's an impressive system.

ETA: How 'Iron Dome' Works.

Iron Dome starts with radar stations that detect a missile or artillery shell moving toward Israeli airspace. Trajectory data on the missile are beamed to a battle control system, which quickly assembles a ballistic profile of the missle––where it is now, how fast it is moving, and where it is going to be. The system and its overseers then make a decision; Is this projectile a threat to a populated area, or is it destined for a rural field or some place where people are not likely to be harmed. Roughly two-thirds of the rockets fired thus far from Gaza have fallen into the latter category, and Iron Dome lets those rockets fall harmlessly.

But if an incoming rocket is perceived to be a threat, that radar data is quickly transferred to a fixed or mobile missile battery––each of which packs 20 radar-guided Tamir interceptor missiles. Those missiles have thus far proven adequately effective in tracking down Hamas missiles in flight and destroying them before they can reach their targets. Moreover, they seem to have grown even more effective since the system was first deployed last year. In three separate (but much smaller) engagements last year, Iron Dome experienced success rates ranging from 80 percent in a short April conflict to a low of roughly 30 percent last October, when it stopped just three of nine incoming missiles. An inquiry into that October event found that a radar failure caused some of the interceptors to deviate from their marks. That, quite apparently, has been fixed.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:37:56 AM EST
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:39:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


Thankfully it costs a 1/10 of that.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:49:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


Thankfully it costs a 1/10 of that.


Not quite. Wikipedia sez...

$90k/missile
$50M/battery

So yeah, I was exaggerating. But it's still a significant disparity to a dumb rocket being launched. As I research I'm also seeing that they are very good at determining landing sites and only launching missiles to intercept those that threaten populated areas.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:49:57 AM EST
Iron Dome provides an option that Israel didn't have in the summer of 2006 when Hezbollah shot hundreds of rockets into towns in northern Israel. The Israelis were forced to mobilize its army and invade Lebanon to stop the rocket attacks.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 8:54:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By scrum:
Success knocking attacks down somehow doesn't seem "dangerous" to me.


The dangerous part is that you might focus a lot of time and money on solving a symptom of a great problem and miss the next threat when the best solution is really just to walk in and kill all your enemies.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:00:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 9:00:47 AM EST by Tanker06]
Originally Posted By EasTexan:
Is Hamas still using Katyusha rockets or have they implemented something more advanced?

It’s a mix – everything from their ‘home-made’ Qassam (a six-foot or so length of pipe) w/ a homegrown motor
and a warhead screwed onto it, to Katyusha (mostly of Chinese origin, smuggled across the Egyptian border),
with the Iranian Fajr-5 being the largest and longest ranged.

The Fajr-5 launches seem to have petered out, and the various ‘experts’ aren’t sure if the Izzies took out their
launchers, or if Hamas just ran out of ordnance.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:04:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


Thankfully it costs a 1/10 of that.


Not quite. Wikipedia sez...

$90k/missile
$50M/battery

So yeah, I was exaggerating. But it's still a significant disparity to a dumb rocket being launched. As I research I'm also seeing that they are very good at determining landing sites and only launching missiles to intercept those that threaten populated areas.


Article I read stated 40k per.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 9:47:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.



It is a huge problem. Logistics. How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?



BHO called Bibi and said just print mo money bro, we do it all the time.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:08:47 PM EST
Idea:

Our next aid shipment to Israel should included thousands of Obama phones.

Let Mossad do what they do best and put C4 in said phones.

Then accidently let that truck get stolen by hamas.

Problem solved

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Ayyash

gotta love the Mossad


Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:14:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:20:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



I could swear I read somewhere that when the IDF did a cost breakdown of damage from a hit in a populated area vs the cost of an Iron Dome interceptor, Iron Dome was cheaper on a per-shot cost.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:21:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 3:21:27 PM EST by brickeyee]
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.



It is a huge problem. Logistics. How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?



C0unter-battery for the win.

Using either aircraft or guided missiles including GPS guided

Once you fire against Iron Dome your launcher location is a simple target.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:24:44 PM EST
They need a battleship.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:28:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Originally Posted By bruzz123:

Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.



It is a huge problem. Logistics. How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?



C0unter-battery for the win.

Using either aircraft or guided missiles including GPS guided

Once you fire against Iron Dome your launcher location is a simple target.


Wonder how long it'll take Hamas to design a randomized mid-course veer into the Qassam with a routed venturi or something to throw off the interceptors...
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 3:29:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



I could swear I read somewhere that when the IDF did a cost breakdown of damage from a hit in a populated area vs the cost of an Iron Dome interceptor, Iron Dome was cheaper on a per-shot cost.


I saw it on CNN, of all places.


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