Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 11/1/2006 4:14:23 AM EST

All these thread debates about torture being right or wrong got me thinking some more again.

Would you have tortured the Rosenbergs? The Feds never were able to get them to rat each other out (IIRC). I think they even calculated that if they scheduled the woman to fry first her husband would talk. They offered them life if they talked and neither would. I think that's how I recall it went down.

Nonetheless, would you have tortured them for info? Keep in mind: they were American citizens.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:18:20 AM EST
[#1]
Poll being added
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:18:48 AM EST
[#2]
IBTP
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:26:29 AM EST
[#3]
How do you know they didn't?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:40:56 AM EST
[#4]
No.  No need to.  The Feds had all the evidence they needed from Venona.  

Frying them both was wrong in my estimation.  I have no doubt about their guilt, but Ethel was far less guilty of treason than Julius and likely should have earned a life-without-parole sentence.  Both of them were hard corps communists willing to die for their cause and both did.  I think they really believed that Ike would commute their sentences to the last.  Sucked to be them.

The Red Scare was in full bloom back then and those fools paid the price.

None of the other conspirators got death.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:54:01 AM EST
[#5]

Would You Have Tortured the Rosenberg Atomic Spies?



Hell yeah. But not for information or to satisfy my desire for justice.


Link Posted: 11/1/2006 5:03:47 AM EST
[#6]

Quoted:
No.  No need to.  The Feds had all the evidence they needed from Venona.  

Frying them both was wrong in my estimation.  I have no doubt about their guilt, but Ethel was far less guilty of treason than Julius and likely should have earned a life-without-parole sentence.  Both of them were hard corps communists willing to die for their cause and both did.  I think they really believed that Ike would commute their sentences to the last.  Sucked to be them.

The Red Scare was in full bloom back then and those fools paid the price.

None of the other conspirators got death.


Do you recall they were offered Life if they talked? I seem to recall that, and even J. Edgar Hoover came up with threatening Julius by having his wife go first. he thought that would break him to talk and then they'd both get Life. Isn't this correct?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 5:06:59 AM EST
[#7]
I don't think it would be necessary or useful in their case, or Alger Hiss's case, or any of the countless Soviet agents that infested the gov't back then.  The Soviets weren't plotting to randomly attack our people in our cities like the the terrorists are doing.  They were more or less rational and civilized, and our procedures were more than enough to go after them.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 5:14:33 AM EST
[#8]
I voted no....we already had everything we needed on them. My only regret is we didn't execute  the rest of that nest of snakes and every other spy since then.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 5:18:18 AM EST
[#9]
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 6:07:15 AM EST
[#10]
Citizens, no
Anyone else thats an enemy, yes
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 7:06:51 AM EST
[#11]
I certainly hope thats sarcasm, because they felt they were hardcore, believing Communists first, and Jews a distant second.

Hardcore believing Communists who got what they deserved during a time when a backbone salesman wouldn't go broke in Washington D.C.

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 7:19:22 AM EST
[#12]
No.  I'm fairly certain that it would not have worked with those two.  The FBI operated with almost total impunity and latitude back then.  The Rosenbergs knew that they could have saved their lives by cooperating and chose to die rather than talk.  Hard cases.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:30:58 PM EST
[#13]
The ROSENBERGS were American citizens. Yet most of you still advocated their torture.

I noticed in the other threads most of you think that torture is okay because BUSH is now advocating the torture of NON-CITIZENS. Many of you stated that all of us "citizens" are safe from torture because of our "citizenship."

But most of you advocated the torture of the American citizens the ROSENBERGS.

Please explain. I'm confused. If I catch some spies I do not know if I should torture them or not.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:34:35 PM EST
[#14]
What would Jack Bauer do?
Which way to the dunking tank?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:36:21 PM EST
[#15]

Quoted:
How do you know they didn't?


They look too good on their way to the chair...
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:42:17 PM EST
[#16]
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:38:39 PM EST
[#17]

Quoted:
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.


Thanks Dave for refreshing my faith in my fellow Americans!
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:42:12 PM EST
[#18]

Quoted:
No.  No need to.  The Feds had all the evidence they needed from Venona.  

Frying them both was wrong in my estimation.  I have no doubt about their guilt, but Ethel was far less guilty of treason than Julius and likely should have earned a life-without-parole sentence.  Both of them were hard corps communists willing to die for their cause and both did.  I think they really believed that Ike would commute their sentences to the last.  Sucked to be them.

The Red Scare was in full bloom back then and those fools paid the price.

None of the other conspirators got death.


It was not wrong. They helped create the network that allowed Fuchs to get the bomb to Stalin. It is only a shame Fuchs didn't also die.

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:42:45 PM EST
[#19]
Toture in their case wasn't needed but I am glad they fried.
We have a few "leakers" as they now call people who disclose classified material, I still call them traitors.... they ought to get the chair too IMHO.
We are at war after all.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:43:28 PM EST
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I voted no....we already had everything we needed on them. My only regret is we didn't execute  the rest of that nest of snakes and every other spy since then.

We only kill the jews.




That is why Jonathan Pollard is dead.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:46:44 PM EST
[#21]

Quoted:
Toture in their case wasn't needed but I am glad they fried.
We have a few "leakers" as they now call people who disclose classified material, I still call them traitors.... they ought to get the chair too IMHO.
We are at war after all.


Agreed as for Death penalty. But what about torture? That's where I say we have to draw the line. We must rise above and not stoop to conquer or we're no longer America.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:51:13 PM EST
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Toture in their case wasn't needed but I am glad they fried.
We have a few "leakers" as they now call people who disclose classified material, I still call them traitors.... they ought to get the chair too IMHO.
We are at war after all.


Agreed as for Death penalty. But what about torture? That's where I say we have to draw the line. We must rise above and not stoop to conquer or we're no longer America.


From most of what I have read, torture is rarely effective. People will say anyhting to stop pain etc.

I just think that the guy who leaked the NSA stuff( A Dem staffer who is not even in jail) needs to get the chair. (And all other "leakers" of clasified info that causes such harm to our country, they are traitors, not "leakers")

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:52:29 PM EST
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I voted no....we already had everything we needed on them. My only regret is we didn't execute  the rest of that nest of snakes and every other spy since then.

We only kill the jews.




That is why Jonathan Pollard is dead.



Now that's funny!

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:56:42 PM EST
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.


Thanks Dave for refreshing my faith in my fellow Americans!


+1

Being an American means actually believing in the principles of individual rights. Throwing these principles away in hard times would be acting like liberals - Freedom of Speech for my side, but censorship for the other.

Don't be a fair-weather American!
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:03:36 PM EST
[#25]
I voted "no," for one simple reason: the Feds had the Venona cables (intercepts of Soviet communications) which told them what the Rs were up to and confirmed Glass's information against them. There was, AFAIK, no need to tap them for intelligence. They wanted Mrs. R to cheese out Mr. R to provide unclassified, publically disclosable confirmation of Glass's testimony. I am no expert, but that's my best understanding.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:07:37 PM EST
[#26]

Quoted:
What would Jack Bauer do?

Which way to the dunking tank?


Help me. I'm layz and don't feel like no Googlin'.

WITF is Jack Bauer?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:12:42 PM EST
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I voted no....we already had everything we needed on them. My only regret is we didn't execute  the rest of that nest of snakes and every other spy since then.

We only kill the jews.


Oh come on Stop with the whoa is me bullshit.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:45:08 PM EST
[#28]
That's it. I'm done with ARF Com. After this post I will ask to end my membership and will not post or read here again.  It's personal.

My Father fought his way across Europe, and I took a personal oath that I would also resist Fascism.  

Torture is just WRONG.

See Ya.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 9:40:43 AM EST
[#29]

Quoted:
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.


+1x10^6
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:19:47 AM EST
[#30]
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:32:49 AM EST
[#31]
The Rosenberg's?  No, waste of time.

They should have worked over Klaus Fuchs for a while.  He deserved a worse fate than the Rosenbergs, and had a tremendous amount of information that was not otherwise known.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:38:15 AM EST
[#32]

Quoted:
That's it. I'm done with ARF Com. After this post I will ask to end my membership and will not post or read here again.  It's personal.

My Father fought his way across Europe, and I took a personal oath that I would also resist Fascism.  

Torture is just WRONG.

See Ya.


Glad to see your a big fan of freedom of speech as well!
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:39:39 AM EST
[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.


+1x10^6


What he said.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 10:48:02 AM EST
[#34]
I dont have a problem with torturing US citizens in some circumstances.  Traitors are the worst scum imaginable, and if there is a chance that torture could stop information like the bomb from getting into our enemies hands, your goddamn right I'd do it.
Its not right simply as a punishment, but it has its place.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 12:41:46 PM EST
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What would Jack Bauer do?

Which way to the dunking tank?


Help me. I'm layz and don't feel like no Googlin'.

WITF is Jack Bauer?


You -> <- The rest of AR15.com
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 12:43:24 PM EST
[#36]

Quoted:
That's it. I'm done with ARF Com. After this post I will ask to end my membership and will not post or read here again.  It's personal.

My Father fought his way across Europe, and I took a personal oath that I would also resist Fascism.  

Torture is just WRONG.

See Ya.



(1) We do not torture people
(2) Waterboarding is not torture according to the legal definition of torture.
(3) Waterboarding Terrorists IS NOT wrong if it SAVES AMERICAN LIVES.

However, there would have been no point in torturing the Rosenbergs.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 4:54:07 PM EST
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
What would Jack Bauer do?

Which way to the dunking tank?


Help me. I'm layz and don't feel like no Googlin'.

WITF is Jack Bauer?


You -> <- The rest of AR15.com


Hey, thanks. But, I'm still layZ. WITF is Jack Bauer?
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 5:02:30 PM EST
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That's it. I'm done with ARF Com. After this post I will ask to end my membership and will not post or read here again.  It's personal.

My Father fought his way across Europe, and I took a personal oath that I would also resist Fascism.  

Torture is just WRONG.

See Ya.



(1) We do not torture people
(2) Waterboarding is not torture according to the legal definition of torture.
(3) Waterboarding Terrorists IS NOT wrong if it SAVES AMERICAN LIVES.

However, there would have been no point in torturing the Rosenbergs.


I'm curious. Suppose you were getting waterboarded because suddenly being an ARFCOMER was decided to be a "Terrorist Activity" by President Hillary Clinton, what would you say then?

Would that be okay with you?

Suppose she said she was trying to save American lives from "Assault Weapons Violence."

Would you then be in favor of "Waterboarding?"
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 5:09:38 PM EST
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
That's it. I'm done with ARF Com. After this post I will ask to end my membership and will not post or read here again.  It's personal.

My Father fought his way across Europe, and I took a personal oath that I would also resist Fascism.  

Torture is just WRONG.

See Ya.



(1) We do not torture people
(2) Waterboarding is not torture according to the legal definition of torture.
(3) Waterboarding Terrorists IS NOT wrong if it SAVES AMERICAN LIVES.

However, there would have been no point in torturing the Rosenbergs.


I'm curious. Suppose you were getting waterboarded because suddenly being an ARFCOMER was decided to be a "Terrorist Activity" by President Hillary Clinton, what would you say then?

Would that be okay with you?

Suppose she said she was trying to save American lives from "Assault Weapons Violence."

Would you then be in favor of "Waterboarding?"


I favor it being used against Al Qaeda members and the members of other terrorist organizations.  I have no issues with it being used against non-US members of this type of organization.  If an American is a member of AQ and has knowledge of a massive attack (atomic) on a US city, I have no issues using waterboarding against him.  The case you suggest is somewhat of a straw man, and of course I would not advocate its use in that circumstance.  A more likely application in a hypothetical future dictatorship would be against Christians, and I would fiercely oppose it.  

If it would save American lives by foiling actual terrorist planned attacks, I advocate it s use against Terrorists according to the current definition of Terrorist.  You do know that during waterboarding, if done correctly, the subject is in no actual danger of drowning, right?
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 5:12:44 PM EST
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No.  No need to.  The Feds had all the evidence they needed from Venona.  

Frying them both was wrong in my estimation.  I have no doubt about their guilt, but Ethel was far less guilty of treason than Julius and likely should have earned a life-without-parole sentence.  Both of them were hard corps communists willing to die for their cause and both did.  I think they really believed that Ike would commute their sentences to the last.  Sucked to be them.

The Red Scare was in full bloom back then and those fools paid the price.

None of the other conspirators got death.


Do you recall they were offered Life if they talked? I seem to recall that, and even J. Edgar Hoover came up with threatening Julius by having his wife go first. he thought that would break him to talk and then they'd both get Life. Isn't this correct?


Yes, I believe you are correct.  As I said in my previous posting, they were true believers in the communist cause and clearly went to their deaths believing themselves martyrs to a great cause.  What utter foolishness.

We ought to have hung the members of the Walker spy gang too...but we didn't.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 5:37:12 PM EST
[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hell no.  My safety and security (and that of my country)  is not worth trading in my (or its) principles.  This is where I think our country has gone wrong both now and in the past---disregarding the principles on which it was founded because of a perceived threat.  Japanese interment camps, and imprisoning of suspected terrorists without trial, nor habeas corpus are just two of the most grievous examples.  

Dave.


Thanks Dave for refreshing my faith in my fellow Americans!



Are you both smoking crack?

IIRC, habeus corpus has been suspended in every war since the Revolution.  Its how business is done so that people who MIGHT be a threat, but it cannot be proven, can be kept under lock & key to KEEP them from becoming a threat.

As for the Rosenburgs . . . don't really know enough about them.  But how much could htey know?  They were the goats in the whole deal, just in it enough to be slaughtered, but not enough to know anything really useful.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 5:44:36 PM EST
[#42]

Quoted:
Frying them both was wrong in my estimation.  I have no doubt about their guilt, but Ethel was far less guilty of treason than Julius and likely should have earned a life-without-parole sentence.  Both of them were hard corps communists willing to die for their cause and both did.  I think they really believed that Ike would commute their sentences to the last.  Sucked to be them.


I thought it was Ethel who was the more guilty, the brains behind the operation.  

The liberals never did forgive Nixon for all those commies he caught, did they?

Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top