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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:07:59 AM EST
I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife. They just got the bill. The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150. The insurance paid $48. This is fucked up. But it gets worse. The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. I am all for the drug companies making money. They do the research and they should get paid. But they need to spread the pain. This is ridiculous. I give away as much samples as I can. A small victory for me and the $30 that it saves some old lady its a weeks worth of groceries.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:12:37 AM EST
And what does an IUD have to do with a pharmecutical company?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:23:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife.




Well put...
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:25:37 AM EST
You should have done it off the clock at his house and saved him a few bucks, just like mechanics do on car repairs
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:26:01 AM EST
We pay so the rest of the world gets a free ride. It's been happening for years.

The best thing the US could do would be to forbid US companies from selling drugs or medical devices to any country that limited the price they would pay for such items. Time the rest of the world carries their fair share.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:26:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:28:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do they have personal injury/medical malpractice attorneys in Mexico and Iran?



I'll go out on a limb and say negative good buddy
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:37:46 AM EST
We are subsidizing this shit for these crappy 3rd world countries. thank the liberals for that. And now they want to order meds from Canada. What do you think that is going to do to prescription costs here. Seems healthcare is the only biz in America that is expected to operate at a loss.

You want to see healthcare costs go down?
Quit going to the doc for minor, inconsequential bullshit.
Take better care of yourselves.
Quit throwing money away on people who are getting ready to die anyway.

that said though, I recently referred a family memeber to a Gyne I know for what sounds like a skin tag removal(was in a private area on a female or I'd have done it myslef on my kitchen table for God's sake). didn't do a proper job the first time and had to repeat the procedure. Total f'ing bill? Almost 3K!!!!!!

I'm still a little pissed about it.
Shit, I wish I made that kind of money. Well, now that I think about it, you're a Gyne too arent' you ARDOC??!
Personally, I think corporate KMart medicine sucks. Maybe go on my own someday--cash only, lower cost of visits....
Hmmmm....
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:39:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
The best thing the US could do would be to forbid US companies from selling drugs or medical devices to any country that limited the price they would pay for such items. Time the rest of the world carries their fair share.



This is an idea which deserves some thought.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:41:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 8:42:57 AM EST by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine.


We aren't subsidizing their healthcare.
We have huge insurance costs because of the fear of litigation.
Mexicans and Iranians don't sue eachother as much, and they don't have as many lawyers.

If something went wrong, and a Mexican/Iranian DID die, and they DID sue the company that made the IUD, they would get like $600.
In America, the reward would be $600,000,000.

Hell, YOU know about this more than anyone. What are YOUR malpractice premiums?

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:43:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
The best thing the US could do would be to forbid US companies from selling drugs or medical devices to any country that limited the price they would pay for such items. Time the rest of the world carries their fair share.



This is an idea which deserves some thought.


Undercut sales and you'll watch US companies move operations overseas. Most US companies are not "US" companies anyway. They often have US subsidiaries whom we can control, but may have HQ operations overseas.
My question is how sales in such countries can be profitable unless the margin is just mindblowingly huge for this equipment. They must be allocating their US overhead independently to calculate prices. That means FDA expenses,lawyers,etc get added to the US price only. That's still odd though. More likely the government's foot the bill for the actual sale cost, and the difference is allocated out to the other countries taxpayers in a socialized medical system.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:45:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife. They just got the bill. The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150. The insurance paid $48. This is fucked up. But it gets worse. The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. I am all for the drug companies making money. They do the research and they should get paid. But they need to spread the pain. This is ridiculous. I give away as much samples as I can. A small victory for me and the $30 that it saves some old lady its a weeks worth of groceries.




Because the governments pay the diff in other countries out of tax $$$

Either way, it gets paid... The diff is the over-all price..

Also, pure economics says that the price of something in a poor country will be less than in a rich one, as price is determined by the market's ability to pay... Products won't sell at American prices in countries that don't have an America-strength economy....
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:48:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:50:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 8:51:29 AM EST by knightsar]
DON'T GET ME STARTED! I had to take out a home equity loan to pay for a surgery on my wife that my heath provider would cover.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:52:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do they have personal injury/medical malpractice attorneys in Mexico and Iran?



Yes, I know they do in Mexico. Harder to get a judgement.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:54:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Quit throwing money away on people who are getting ready to die anyway.



Agreed, but who makes that call? Hillary?!?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:54:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
The best thing the US could do would be to forbid US companies from selling drugs or medical devices to any country that limited the price they would pay for such items. Time the rest of the world carries their fair share.



This is an idea which deserves some thought.


Undercut sales and you'll watch US companies move operations overseas. Most US companies are not "US" companies anyway. They often have US subsidiaries whom we can control, but may have HQ operations overseas.
My question is how sales in such countries can be profitable unless the margin is just mindblowingly huge for this equipment. They must be allocating their US overhead independently to calculate prices. That means FDA expenses,lawyers,etc get added to the US price only. That's still odd though. More likely the government's foot the bill for the actual sale cost, and the difference is allocated out to the other countries taxpayers in a socialized medical system.



Before you make a lot of assumptions, perhaps you should go read up on the topic. Most national health care systems pay LESS than the cost of production plus amortized R&D costs for pharmaceuticals. One of the only nations where this is not true is the US. So, US consumers get to pay essentially ALL the R&D costs.

The drug companies continue to sell in such countries because they do make money on some drugs they sell there, if you do not include R&D costs. They get to have US consumer pay the full R&D tab. Hence my proposal.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:01:32 AM EST
I'm glad my fiance is PA...
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:03:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By 944turbo:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Quit throwing money away on people who are getting ready to die anyway.



Agreed, but who makes that call? Hillary?!?



I understand the dilemna. Society will have to decide on reasonable interventions. It is a tough call. As it is I have seen plenty of people who are little more than veggies in a bed and there is always some retard family member who wants you to fertilize them no matter what. The real point here though is that if the family had to pay out of pocket it would have been over a long time ago.

I would favor a physician board to review exteme cases, at least, and in the event that the family still wants all interventions they should pay, not the rest of us. That is my feeling on the subject. I do not intend to seem callous but am a realist.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:04:43 AM EST


You're a GYN and now yer pissed? I would have thoutgh the outrageous insurance would have done it fer sure.



I had to lay out $2300 for anesthesia that wasn't covered for my wife's a c-section and 2 IVF harvests. And I have insurance!
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:06:07 AM EST
Get the government to stop regulating health care and the market will take care of things like this. It's axiomatic: the more government involvement, the worse the service. It's really that simple.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:08:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 9:09:49 AM EST by Ramjet]
I've sat in board meetings with doctors and listen to them bitch that they aren't making any money yet one had just finished her $1.7M house.

I've sat in board meetings with laywers and listen to them bitch about how tough it is in the healthcare field yet one just purchased a new imported 65 foot boat.

I've sat in board meetings with insurance people who bitch about the doctors and the lawyers while they are building a new 300 story mega building to dominate the skyline. WTF does a paper shuffler like a Insurance Company need at figgen skyscraper for?

And I ask myself, who is making all the money off of heathcare because to listen to these people, they aren't.

I know it's not this group. So who is it?

IMHO, I think we did it to ourselves. As a whole, most have adopted the idea that you can live a risky lifestyle, eat crap, sit in front of the tube and medical science will save you when your ticker gives out no matter the cost. In fact, you're "entitled" to it. I don't know how it happen and I have no idea how to reverse this trend.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:14:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine.


We aren't subsidizing their healthcare.
We have huge insurance costs because of the fear of litigation.
Mexicans and Iranians don't sue eachother as much, and they don't have as many lawyers.

If something went wrong, and a Mexican/Iranian DID die, and they DID sue the company that made the IUD, they would get like $600.
In America, the reward would be $600,000,000.

Hell, YOU know about this more than anyone. What are YOUR malpractice premiums?




Another factor that drives this are huge amounts of profit-taking in medical supply companies.

I had a conversation with an executive in a company that makes very high-tech life-saving equipment, and they were telling me that they could cut their cost by 75% and STILL make HUGE profits (after R&D costs have been covered). And no - they do not have a monopoly. They are "supposedly" in a highly competetive market with two other suppliers, but I suspect collusion, in which they've carved out respective niches and don't threaten each other's markets. That both amazed and astonished me - they are making life-saving stuff (literally, their products are only used to keep people from dying) and they have obscenely high profit margins - and it aint because of malpractice costs or R&D costs, but it is pure profit-taking.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:18:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ramjet:
I've sat in board meetings with doctors and listen to them bitch that they aren't making any money yet one had just finished her $1.7M house.

I've sat in board meetings with laywers and listen to them bitch about how tough it is in the healthcare field yet one just purchased a new imported 65 foot boat.

I've sat in board meetings with insurance people who bitch about the doctors and the lawyers while they are building a new 300 story mega building to dominate the skyline. WTF does a paper shuffler like a Insurance Company need at figgen skyscraper for?

And I ask myself, who is making all the money off of heathcare because to listen to these people, they aren't.

I know it's not this group. So who is it?

IMHO, I think we did it to ourselves. As a whole, most have adopted the idea that you can live a risky lifestyle, eat crap, sit in front of the tube and medical science will save you when your ticker gives out no matter the cost. In fact, you're "entitled" to it. I don't know how it happen and I have no idea how to reverse this trend.



Well, I'm just a lowly family practice doc(my call, I could've done something else) but I know plumbers and contractors who make more than I. Now for 11 years of higher education, putting off homebuying, 401K's and working my ass off while going 110K in debt I would expect a little more. Especially as the .gov takes half my earnings at least. I do have a good life and don't really bitch about money in general(taxes, yes!) but there seems to be a lack of equitability in the system as it stands. People bitch all the time about healthcare costs but I am a memeber of the only profession who has it pay scale set by the .gov. And you wonder why the best and brightest are now often opting to do something else?
You ought to see all the people who think I should take care of them for free. They are also the least deserving generally. I am damn good at what I do but I would choose differently if I were to do it again.

As always, a little common sense goes a long way.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:20:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine.


We aren't subsidizing their healthcare.
We have huge insurance costs because of the fear of litigation.
Mexicans and Iranians don't sue eachother as much, and they don't have as many lawyers.

If something went wrong, and a Mexican/Iranian DID die, and they DID sue the company that made the IUD, they would get like $600.
In America, the reward would be $600,000,000.

Hell, YOU know about this more than anyone. What are YOUR malpractice premiums?




Another factor that drives this are huge amounts of profit-taking in medical supply companies.

I had a conversation with an executive in a company that makes very high-tech life-saving equipment, and they were telling me that they could cut their cost by 75% and STILL make HUGE profits (after R&D costs have been covered). And no - they do not have a monopoly. They are "supposedly" in a highly competetive market with two other suppliers, but I suspect collusion, in which they've carved out respective niches and don't threaten each other's markets. That both amazed and astonished me - they are making life-saving stuff (literally, their products are only used to keep people from dying) and they have obscenely high profit margins - and it aint because of malpractice costs or R&D costs, but it is pure profit-taking.



That is true. The gov't has mandated that expensive procedures and equipment are fine, but slugging it out in the trenches with sick people all day ain't worth shit. Rant, rant, rant
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:22:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
PISSED OFF BEYOND BELIEF! Health cost rant




You should send John Edwards a Thank you letter
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:31:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife. They just got the bill. The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150. The insurance paid $48. This is fucked up. But it gets worse. The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. I am all for the drug companies making money. They do the research and they should get paid. But they need to spread the pain. This is ridiculous. I give away as much samples as I can. A small victory for me and the $30 that it saves some old lady its a weeks worth of groceries.




How often do IUD makers get sued in:

US
Mexico
Iran

What are the average payouts in each country?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:33:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Personally, I think corporate KMart medicine sucks. Maybe go on my own someday--cash only, lower cost of visits....
Hmmmm....




I wish that sort of thing were more common.

In September I went in for an "office visit" to get a prescription for some allergy meds.

My insurance plan is a combination of a tax free account for healthcare spending, and a high deductible insurance plan for more serious stuff.

I ask the lady at the desk what the price is talk with a doc for a bit and get a prescription. She didn't know. I ended up having to talk with three people before I found out that a fricken office visit was going to cost me $101. $101 to talk with the guy for 15 minutes and have him write the name of a drug and his signature on a sheet of paper.

I'd love to see lots of docs where you could walk in, see a list of prices for various things, and decide whether or not you want to spend it. No insurance forms etc. This way some market forces might actually come into play to keep things like fucking $101 office visits from happening. Here's how I'd like to see things work for minor annoyances that you still want to talk with a doc about: walk in at my appointed time, talk with the doc, write a check for my bill right then, get a receipt, and use the receipt to make a claim against my health savings account.

I'd also like to get rid of the damn "by prescription only" rules for drugs and let people decide whether or not they want to risk taking something without a doctor's guidance. This way I could have skipped the whole damn visit and just went out and bought the drug that I've taken every September for the last 5 years. Let the drug companies put a "we highly recommend you see a doctor before taking this" disclaimer on their products and call it good enough.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:35:21 AM EST
What is an IUD?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:37:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ramjet:
WTF does a paper shuffler like a Insurance Company need at figgen skyscraper for?



They employ a lot of people. Aetna, for example, has something like 30,000 employees.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:37:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do they have personal injury/medical malpractice attorneys in Mexico and Iran?



Do they spend 10.2 billion dollars on marketing in Mexico and Iran? Do they have such huge administrative costs in Mexico and Iran? Do they have three fucking dick-stiffener drugs in Mexico and Iran but not enough flu vaccine? Medical malpractice costs are part of the problem, but by no means the entire ball of wax, or even the primary factor in high health care costs.

It's time for government regulation of the health care industry. Capitalism is great when you're selling cars or fast food. But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people. Look at all the ads for obesity reducing drugs on the market. Why aren't we taking a public health approach that emphasizes proper diet and excercise? Because there's much more money to be made in medicating the population. Capitalistic medicine is to blame for the explosion in diagnosis for ADD-who needs proper parenting skills or the hassle involved in letting kids grow up when you can just pump 'em full of drugs?

I wouldn't advocate a single payer system-government fucks things up too much. But it's high time for some regulation and price controls.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:37:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 9:38:01 AM EST by sgtar15]
[//
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:42:20 AM EST

METT-T:
But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people.

we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:42:56 AM EST
Malpractice insurance last year was Around 50-60k. There was a huge article that was just released that showed a tremendous increase for general surgeons. In some states in the 150k per year range.

IUD= Interuterine device. Stops the the sperms and eggs from makin a baby!
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:43:33 AM EST

sgtar15:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By ARDOC:
The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You go right ahead a go down there and get this done. Why you would want some 3rd world coutry dude sticking his fingers up your wife so he can istall a coathamger is beyond me.


But if $1.79 is how much you think your wife is worth go right ahead.


Sgatr15





He's talking about the price of the device.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:44:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

METT-T:
But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people.

we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare?



Medicare doesn't affect the market much. For one thing, it only affects a small percentage of the population. It also doesn't have much impact on the inelasticity of the demand for care.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:47:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do they have personal injury/medical malpractice attorneys in Mexico and Iran?



Do they spend 10.2 billion dollars on marketing in Mexico and Iran? Do they have such huge administrative costs in Mexico and Iran? Do they have three fucking dick-stiffener drugs in Mexico and Iran but not enough flu vaccine? Medical malpractice costs are part of the problem, but by no means the entire ball of wax, or even the primary factor in high health care costs.



Agreed


It's time for government regulation of the health care industry.

I wouldn't advocate a single payer system-government fucks things up too much. But it's high time for some regulation and price controls.



this is where you show how little you know about the subject. there is nothing that i am aware of that is more over regulated than healthcare and it is ALL driven by the gov't. They are the problem, not the solution. In your little fantasy world "healthcare is a right".
Be careful what you wish for...Very careful.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:48:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Do they have personal injury/medical malpractice attorneys in Mexico and Iran?



Do they spend 10.2 billion dollars on marketing in Mexico and Iran? Do they have such huge administrative costs in Mexico and Iran? Do they have three fucking dick-stiffener drugs in Mexico and Iran but not enough flu vaccine? Medical malpractice costs are part of the problem, but by no means the entire ball of wax, or even the primary factor in high health care costs.

It's time for government regulation of the health care industry. Capitalism is great when you're selling cars or fast food. But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people. Look at all the ads for obesity reducing drugs on the market. Why aren't we taking a public health approach that emphasizes proper diet and excercise? Because there's much more money to be made in medicating the population. Capitalistic medicine is to blame for the explosion in diagnosis for ADD-who needs proper parenting skills or the hassle involved in letting kids grow up when you can just pump 'em full of drugs?

I wouldn't advocate a single payer system-government fucks things up too much. But it's high time for some regulation and price controls.



no, the reason we have 3 different dick stiffening pills is BECAUSE of government regulation. The only kind of drugs you can make money in the pharma industry is on medicine for non life hreatening things. If you make someone that will save someone's life, the government will make sure you won't make a dime off it. ie. clintons flu vaccine price fixing. Nice how that worked, isn't it?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:48:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

METT-T:
But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people.

we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare?



Medicare doesn't affect the market much. For one thing, it only affects a small percentage of the population. It also doesn't have much impact on the inelasticity of the demand for care.



Where the fuck are yougetting your info from, DU? Holy shit dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:50:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

METT-T:
But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people.

we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare?



Medicare doesn't affect the market much.




Are you joking?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:58:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

METT-T:
But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people.

we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare?



Medicare doesn't affect the market much.




Are you joking?



"Free Market" BS.

Free market is when I want to buy a car, I can go to multiple dealerships, selling cars from multiple car makers. I can even play 2 dealers selling the exact same make and modle of car against one another.

If I don't like the price, selection, color, attitude of the dealer I can walk.

When I break my leg, the nearest EMS is called, they generally take me to the closest hospital. I can't decide which EMS is called, nor can I decide NOT to have the leg treated. Nor can I decide to simply leave. Most needs for service are like that.

Nor will the hospital "bargain" down the price, or subsitute the meds or medical devices they use for items I have someone go get for me at Wal-Mart.

Saying "supply-demand" in a situation that is actually neccesity driven doesn't work.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:58:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 10:00:38 AM EST by magnum_99]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine.


We aren't subsidizing their healthcare.
We have huge insurance costs because of the fear of litigation.
Mexicans and Iranians don't sue eachother as much, and they don't have as many lawyers.

If something went wrong, and a Mexican/Iranian DID die, and they DID sue the company that made the IUD, they would get like $600.
In America, the reward would be $600,000,000.

Hell, YOU know about this more than anyone. What are YOUR malpractice premiums?




Another factor that drives this are huge amounts of profit-taking in medical supply companies.

I had a conversation with an executive in a company that makes very high-tech life-saving equipment, and they were telling me that they could cut their cost by 75% and STILL make HUGE profits (after R&D costs have been covered). And no - they do not have a monopoly. They are "supposedly" in a highly competetive market with two other suppliers, but I suspect collusion, in which they've carved out respective niches and don't threaten each other's markets. That both amazed and astonished me - they are making life-saving stuff (literally, their products are only used to keep people from dying) and they have obscenely high profit margins - and it aint because of malpractice costs or R&D costs, but it is pure profit-taking.





A ha! And there's the evidence.


The reason they can do this is because of the idea that everyone needs health insurance and that insurance should cover all forms of treatment.

The system has grown to become an entitlement for doctor's submitting claims to their insured's company who will pay for nearly any treatment and at any "pravailing rate." That is the touchstone.

So, if the prevailing rate is $600 for an IUD, and the policy is written to pay that, then that is what the doctor gets. Market foces no longer play a role where the one actually receiving the product or service foots the bill.

The real problem is the insurance system itself. (and government regulation of it--see the above posts).

The analogy is car insurance. Imaging what it would cost if it covered spark plugs, tires, oil and filters, shocks, batteries, light bulbs, et. al.

The cost would be ENORMOUS. Now, add in that the policy with pay $100 for a lightbulb IF the prevailing rate for that bulb is $100.

No one would be able to afford car insurance. Or, at least we'd be in the same boat as for health insurance--rapidly rising rates with no end in sight.

The real issue is the entitlement mentality of Americans that we should just have health care because...just because.

Add into that the lack of a true free market for the product, and you have out of control rates.

Litigation is a red herrring and only contributes to a small portion of the problem. Moreover, doctor's DO fuck up and I don't want to be limited to an arbitrarily low amount for damages when some quack amputates my leg when I was supposed to be having a boil lanced. .

Selling at cut-rate prices to other countries should be made criminal.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 10:01:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife. They just got the bill. The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150. The insurance paid $48. This is fucked up. But it gets worse. The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. I am all for the drug companies making money. They do the research and they should get paid. But they need to spread the pain. This is ridiculous. I give away as much samples as I can. A small victory for me and the $30 that it saves some old lady its a weeks worth of groceries.




Maybe we are tying to keep people in those other countries from breeding? he
And what I am going to say next is not directed at you personally. I am speaking in general terms. If there was no money in being a doctor, lawyer or no money to be made by insurance companies, then why are there so many doctors, lawyers and insurance companies? I have great respect for doctors and lawyers, well doctors but I get tired of hearing all the whining about money. I have a sister that is a doctor and all she does is complain about lawyers and insurance and how they are taking all her money. Yet she just bought a 1.2 million dollar home in Los Altos. Go figure.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 10:44:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
The system has grown to become an entitlement for doctor's submitting claims to their insured's company who will pay for nearly any treatment and at any "pravailing rate." That is the touchstone.

So, if the prevailing rate is $600 for an IUD, and the policy is written to pay that, then that is what the doctor gets. Market foces no longer play a role where the one actually receiving the product or service foots the bill.

The real problem is the insurance system itself. (and government regulation of it--see the above posts).

The analogy is car insurance. Imaging what it would cost if it covered spark plugs, tires, oil and filters, shocks, batteries, light bulbs, et. al.

The cost would be ENORMOUS. Now, add in that the policy with pay $100 for a lightbulb IF the prevailing rate for that bulb is $100.

No one would be able to afford car insurance. Or, at least we'd be in the same boat as for health insurance--rapidly rising rates with no end in sight.

The real issue is the entitlement mentality of Americans that we should just have health care because...just because.

Add into that the lack of a true free market for the product, and you have out of control rates.


I'm no economist, but IMHO this is PRECISELY the problem.

The solution? Ban health insurance as we know it... make everyone write a check for the services they consume, with the exception of major catastrophic coverage (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.). MSAs are a step in the right direction.

--Mike
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:22:18 AM EST
first off medicare and medicaid eat up huge portions of state and federal budgets.

second, the reason why healthcare has become an entitlememnt issue is because of how its given out to the population. the elderly get healthcare at low to no cost to them. the desperately poor get it as a mandate from the govt. the very high end of the employed get it as a matter of coarse with their compensation package. everyone else is barely insured or not insured.

in the meantime the same working stiffs who are barely or not insured are the ones who pay the taxes to pay for it all.

to add insult to injury theres the cost of meds and formularies that tell you what you can or cant get and at what copay or worse full price.

even more insulting is the fact that if insured your insurance co negotiates a rate to see the doctor trhat is about 35-45 dollars. if you are uninsured or have forgotten your refferal your rate is 150 or so. we wont even get into hospital billing practices and whether you can negotiate.

malpractice is totally different issue but it has a lot to do with the fact that with all the money being taken in taxes to pay for someone elses care a lot of people feel justified in raiding someone elses pocket. add to that the lawyer ads and contingency plus the truth is that many cases are simply settled with no admission of guilt and you have a recipe where insurance companies and lawyers dictate whatever the goverment hasnt already dictated to doctors.

on the doctors end of it, we are not gettting the best and brightest in med school anymore because for a lot less grief and quite a few less years of school they can make the same or better in another area. who wants to become a gp when you come out with a load of debt and the insurance cos and govt will dictate what you make.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:50:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By kill-9:
Get the government to stop regulating health care and the market will take care of things like this. It's axiomatic: the more government involvement, the worse the service. It's really that simple.



+1
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:55:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Another factor that drives this are huge amounts of profit-taking in medical supply companies.

I had a conversation with an executive in a company that makes very high-tech life-saving equipment, and they were telling me that they could cut their cost by 75% and STILL make HUGE profits (after R&D costs have been covered). And no - they do not have a monopoly. They are "supposedly" in a highly competetive market with two other suppliers, but I suspect collusion, in which they've carved out respective niches and don't threaten each other's markets. That both amazed and astonished me - they are making life-saving stuff (literally, their products are only used to keep people from dying) and they have obscenely high profit margins - and it aint because of malpractice costs or R&D costs, but it is pure profit-taking.



If this is true, you should go into their buisness and comptet with them. What you are telling me is that there is a "nitch" where you could turn a very nice profit. I wonder why no one has filled this nitch already?

Perhaps it has to due with govenrment regulation of that particular market, combined with tort risks. I donno, just floating ideas . . .
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:57:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Another factor that drives this are huge amounts of profit-taking in medical supply companies.

I had a conversation with an executive in a company that makes very high-tech life-saving equipment, and they were telling me that they could cut their cost by 75% and STILL make HUGE profits (after R&D costs have been covered). And no - they do not have a monopoly. They are "supposedly" in a highly competetive market with two other suppliers, but I suspect collusion, in which they've carved out respective niches and don't threaten each other's markets. That both amazed and astonished me - they are making life-saving stuff (literally, their products are only used to keep people from dying) and they have obscenely high profit margins - and it aint because of malpractice costs or R&D costs, but it is pure profit-taking.



If this is true, you should go into their buisness and comptet with them. What you are telling me is that there is a "nitch" where you could turn a very nice profit. I wonder why no one has filled this nitch already?

Perhaps it has to due with govenrment regulation of that particular market, combined with tort risks. I donno, just floating ideas . . .



Poorly written, but correct.

Government regulations and liability issues make the barriers to entry high in this field. Just another example of the law of unitended consequences in action, and another reason for fewer government regulations of the domestic healthcare market.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:01:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:
It's time for government regulation of the health care industry. Capitalism is great when you're selling cars or fast food. But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people. Look at all the ads for obesity reducing drugs on the market. Why aren't we taking a public health approach that emphasizes proper diet and excercise? Because there's much more money to be made in medicating the population. Capitalistic medicine is to blame for the explosion in diagnosis for ADD-who needs proper parenting skills or the hassle involved in letting kids grow up when you can just pump 'em full of drugs?



We already have intensive government regulation of the health industry. That's why it's so fucked up. In fact, as it currently stands, it is partly socialized here, (medicare, medicaid, etc) which is a large reason for the high costs.

When part of the population get free medical care without paying the costs, they make full use of that care for any minor ailment, without even shopping around. The result is, in effect, an increase in demand, which leads to higher prices.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:05:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Saying "supply-demand" in a situation that is actually neccesity driven doesn't work.



That's exactly why the free market won't work with respect to things like the food supply.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:06:05 PM EST
I can't believe no one has asked this question.

<­BR>

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