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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/19/2004 5:50:55 PM EST



Anyone heard anything about this?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:52:36 PM EST
I would think the 5.7 would be preferable to 9mm for Spec Ops missions where enemy body armor is a good possibility.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:52:57 PM EST
They're just doing it because they did it on StarGate SG1.LOL
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:53:18 PM EST

No clue, but this is what I think about P90's looks...

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:55:52 PM EST
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
P90 is a "neat" gun and I may be way off here but I would think those guys
would prefer something alittle more normal ?

wolf
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:57:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
P90 is a "neat" gun and I may be way off here but I would think those guys
would prefer something alittle more normal ?

wolf



Very very compact, 50 round mags, high-velocity cartridge...
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:59:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
P90 is a "neat" gun and I may be way off here but I would think those guys
would prefer something alittle more normal ?

wolf



why? it's perfect for what it was designed for, CQC

-the 5.7 can defeat enemy body armor where the 9mm has a hard time doing so
-compact
-light
-extremely low recoil
-high capacity
-fully ambidextrious



Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:02:18 PM EST
Just to throw in another aspect of it, the P90 is pretty cool. I'd love to shoot one. But I wonder if 50 rounds is enough. From what I can see it is difficult to change mags quickly. Hate to be in a firefight and need a quick reload.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone can correct me.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:10:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 6:10:46 PM EST by KhanFire]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
They're just doing it because they did it on StarGate SG1.LOL



+1

Soon they'll be using staff weapons.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:22:12 PM EST
The terminal ballistics on the P90 are crap- I don't see any SF units actually using these any time soon. Shooting other people's ammo with demo guns for free, yes. A 10.5" M16 would be much better, and can be supported through normal supply channels.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:08:28 PM EST
IF you drop a P90 the bullets get all jacked up in the mag. One reason the P90 is not uber popular.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:11:24 PM EST
i can attest to the effectiveness of the p90. i owned bond with it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:12:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By KhanFire:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
They're just doing it because they did it on StarGate SG1.LOL



+1

Soon they'll be using staff weapons.




Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:28:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
i can attest to the effectiveness of the p90. i owned bond with it.



Yeah like when it was more effective than the M16 with better range accuracy and penetration. Seriously, sometimes you just have to ask...

What the hell just happened?

80 round mag my ass.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:38:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By KhanFire:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
They're just doing it because they did it on StarGate SG1.LOL



+1

Soon they'll be using staff weapons.



"Die Terorist"
*ZAP*
*Booom!*
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:39:07 PM EST
I think it would all come down to mag changes and reliability. 50 rounds is attractive... as is penetration.... but if it don't work... it don't work.


- BUCC_Guy


The Secret Service does, however, find it just dandy
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:10:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
The terminal ballistics on the P90 are crap



As compared to a 9mm???
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:17:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
wolf




No such thing as an MP5 in .223. But not the point. Anyway, for those people who say the effectiveness of the 5.56 is limited, think about what a short little 5.7mm from a short barrel would be like. Not very impressive ballistics, methinks.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:25:53 AM EST
The P90's terminal ballistics are suspect at best. The mechanism of the weapon uses an absurd twisting action in the magazine to line the round up with the bore. The ergonomics of the weapon are miserable if you are anything more than the "average" sized male.

The only thing the weapon has to commend it is that the round will penetrate body armor. But this it does LESS effectively than the 5.56 cartridge.

FN is pushing real hard to sell this thing to somebody in the US, but buyers have been few and far in-between because nobody trusts it. Ballistic tests seem to bear out their concerns.

So no, you won't see the MP5 replaced by this thing anytime soon.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:26:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
The terminal ballistics on the P90 are crap



As compared to a 9mm???



Yes, even compared with a 9mm. Take a look at the reports over on Tacforums.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:30:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 3:33:02 AM EST by photoman]

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
The terminal ballistics on the P90 are crap- I don't see any SF units actually using these any time soon. Shooting other people's ammo with demo guns for free, yes. A 10.5" M16 would be much better, and can be supported through normal supply channels.



Go see the thread on what a 5.7 did to a level II vest. you don't know what yer talking about.

Here guys go learn something link
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:07:55 AM EST
Quoted from Doc Roberts:

"I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system. "
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:10:39 AM EST
Who said that a MP-5 is available in 223? That isn't true is it?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:15:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 4:20:45 AM EST by A-nus]

Originally Posted By jasondcrum:
IF you drop a P90 the bullets get all jacked up in the mag. One reason the P90 is not uber popular.




NOT TRUE, that is an internet rumor total bull shit.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:19:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 4:21:16 AM EST by A-nus]

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Who said that a MP-5 is available in 223? That isn't true is it?



It's not called an mp5 it is an HK-53, it is part of the 33(93) line of wepons not a part of the mp5 line, semantics realy
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:23:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
wolf




No such thing as an MP5 in .223. But not the point. Anyway, for those people who say the effectiveness of the 5.56 is limited, think about what a short little 5.7mm from a short barrel would be like. Not very impressive ballistics, methinks.



I think he means the HK53.

I would think if they wanted a new SMG, they'd take the HK MP7, superior to the P90 in more ways than one. Only thing the P90 has on the MP7 is the stock. But thats questionable.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:28:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 4:30:48 AM EST by A-nus]
The P-90 is not intended to be a SF weapon, it is a pdw for non combatans (cooks, and drivers) It was intended for Jesical Lynch more then SF. It is compact has a high rof and holds a lot of rounds, a bunch of them firing at an ambush can through up a lot of led quickly. Every driver in IRAQ should have them.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:31:37 AM EST
So you see a pic of a guy in unautorized sunglasses and a Furin weapon and jump to the conclusion that "SF" is getting rid of their MP5s?

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:40:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
So you see a pic of a guy in unautorized sunglasses and a Furin weapon and jump to the conclusion that "SF" is getting rid of their MP5s?




True, but we don't know if the pic perhaps had a caption inditcating it was SF. I doubt they would accept the P90. For anything the MP5 can't do, the M4 is there.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:45:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By A-nus:
The P-90 is not intended to be a SF weapon, it is a pdw for non combatans (cooks, and drivers) It was intended for Jesical Lynch more then SF. It is compact has a high rof and holds a lot of rounds, a bunch of them firing at an ambush can through up a lot of led quickly. Every driver in IRAQ should have them.



Yup, think M1 Carbine. Sadly, I don't know if it is a great weapon for rear echelon personnel--compact yes, but the issue with the mags and loading them and having the rounds spew out on on the ground when you drop it is not cool. They might better go back to the M1, frankly.

Note: I only handled one at a gun show, I've never fired one. I've been following this whole debate awhile though.

I noticed you (meaning we civies) can now buy the FN Five Seven handgun. No AP ammo though...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:56:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:14:33 AM EST
They are neat looking little guns, but the ergonomics don't work for guys my size, and their terminal effectiveness leaves a lot to be desired. Yes they can penetrate armor. But that is about all that is going for the P90 and the teeny little cartridge used.

FWIW I think the P90 makes more sense than the MP7. The P90 has more capacity, allowing you to put many more rounds on target. The high ROF is useful in putting multiple projectiles in the target, which enhances the terminal effect of the weapon.

In certain limited circumstances, I think the P90 could be useful. It is a better idea for a PDW than the MP7, but it is still not a very good PDW IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:23:26 AM EST
I've fired a P90 & while it has good handling characteristics & hit potential, I'm not real excited about the terminal effect.

There's enough complaints circulating about the 5.56 as it is. Something with 20-30gr less bullet & 600fps or so less velocity has got to be near worthless.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:22:22 AM EST
Shooting a p90 is like holding a vibrator and it spewing out 50 rounds REALLY QUICKLY
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:35:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vermilion:
Shooting a p90 is like holding a vibrator and it spewing out 50 rounds REALLY QUICKLY



You know alot about spewing vibrators, don't you

The P90 is to...tight and small for me. I don't like being all crouched down into a gun while firing.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:39:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
The terminal ballistics on the P90 are crap



As compared to a 9mm???



Correct - even the 9mm Body Armor Piercing round (pretty neat BTW) has better terminal balistics than the 5.7 cartridge.

And the 9mm is easier to supress.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 8:57:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
Just to throw in another aspect of it, the P90 is pretty cool. I'd love to shoot one. But I wonder if 50 rounds is enough. From what I can see it is difficult to change mags quickly. Hate to be in a firefight and need a quick reload.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone can correct me.



Consider yourself corrected. It's about the simplest mag to change. Comes off easy and locks down easy.
Several PDs are using them with great success. Houston, TX I believe has used theirs a few times on people.
I'm not a fan of the grip on its counterpart pistol. Too elongated, but the SMG is real nice.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:14:53 AM EST
Meh,

I would rather have a G36(car), micro-galil, krink or an amd-65... similar size, better reliability, better stopper.

But you won't be seeing those on Stargate and they don't cost anything like what a P90 costs
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:39:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 9:40:05 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:

Originally Posted By A-nus:
The P-90 is not intended to be a SF weapon, it is a pdw for non combatans (cooks, and drivers) It was intended for Jesical Lynch more then SF. It is compact has a high rof and holds a lot of rounds, a bunch of them firing at an ambush can through up a lot of led quickly. Every driver in IRAQ should have them.



Yup, think M1 Carbine. Sadly, I don't know if it is a great weapon for rear echelon personnel--compact yes, but the issue with the mags and loading them and having the rounds spew out on on the ground when you drop it is not cool. They might better go back to the M1, frankly.

Note: I only handled one at a gun show, I've never fired one. I've been following this whole debate awhile though.

I noticed you (meaning we civies) can now buy the FN Five Seven handgun. No AP ammo though...



We already HAD the right weapon for this back in 1965..


Why they continue wasting good money on toys when they already have the answer but refuse to order weapons with the right parts is a continuing mystery.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:03:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 10:10:50 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:19:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By A-nus:

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Who said that a MP-5 is available in 223? That isn't true is it?



It's not called an mp5 it is an HK-53, it is part of the 33(93) line of wepons not a part of the mp5 line, semantics realy



Yup just trying to keep it simple

Wolf
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:14:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
The P90's terminal ballistics are suspect at best. The mechanism of the weapon uses an absurd twisting action in the magazine to line the round up with the bore. The ergonomics of the weapon are miserable if you are anything more than the "average" sized male.

The only thing the weapon has to commend it is that the round will penetrate body armor. But this it does LESS effectively than the 5.56 cartridge.

FN is pushing real hard to sell this thing to somebody in the US, but buyers have been few and far in-between because nobody trusts it. Ballistic tests seem to bear out their concerns.

So no, you won't see the MP5 replaced by this thing anytime soon.



Agree with you 100% the terminal ballistics on this weapon are pathetic . By the way we have a member of this board who shot someone with the 5.7 and while he could'nt get into specifics for legal reasons he warned everyone to stay away from it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:20:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
wolf




No such thing as an MP5 in .223. But not the point. Anyway, for those people who say the effectiveness of the 5.56 is limited, think about what a short little 5.7mm from a short barrel would be like. Not very impressive ballistics, methinks.



Ok, an HK 33, basically the same.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:26:36 AM EST
I think the popular consensus was that the overall performance of the 5.7 sucked ass.

I think the M4 already replaced the MP5 anyways
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:38:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherm8404:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By wolf-ym:
Well I doubt it, When they can get the MP5 in 9-10mm and .223.
wolf




No such thing as an MP5 in .223. But not the point. Anyway, for those people who say the effectiveness of the 5.56 is limited, think about what a short little 5.7mm from a short barrel would be like. Not very impressive ballistics, methinks.



Ok, an HK 33, basically the same.



HK53 guys. 8 inch barreled version of the HK33.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:40:48 AM EST
I really, really, really want a FN2000.

Did anyone read in the latest shotgun new that they are developing a civvie leagal P90?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:11:21 PM EST
the thing is as already mentioned is that PDW's are not intended to be a offensive arm. there purely defensive Ie a caravan gets ambushed by guys in body armor there for you dump 10 or so rounds into the guys chest move onto the next target. Its small,compact,and holds alot of ammo. IN that role it works. Problem is people are taking the pdw concept and placing it in roles its not intended to be used in and its probly going to eventualy get somone killed.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 4:51:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist:
I really, really, really want a FN2000.

Did anyone read in the latest shotgun new that they are developing a civvie leagal P90?



DUDE DON"T play with my emotions, smokey what issue what page???
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