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Posted: 6/17/2013 5:51:43 AM EDT
[#1]
They should have a .357 revolver and a night stick.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 5:54:00 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
They should have a .357 revolver and a night stick. who said we don't 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 5:57:41 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm not going to say that the p90 is superior, but the odds of a "situation" turning out differently as a result of p90 vs AR differences are slim to none.
Training is a FAR more important variable. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 5:59:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Bobby hat and a club is all you need
I've never fired a P90, all my experience is on the M16/AR15 platforms. Based on what you said I would not rate the FN platform as more advanced, the AR sounds like it would be more reliable for your duty use. No BUIS? That's just wrong... Any firearm with a barrel pointed at you looks menacing so I don't think calling one more aggressive over another is fair. However SG-1 chose P90's over the rest, so there may be something there. 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:04:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
My agency issues PS90 and P90 rifles for patrol/swat use. The rifles themselves have encountered a number of reliability issues (trigger pack failures, firing pins breaking, magazines breaking when dropped) and a number of officers are starting talks about personally owned AR15's for patrol carry. I need assistance in presenting hard evidence these are a viable platform for my agency. The town itself is managed by a liberal, anti-gun group of politicians who have final say in budget items; and we need facts, diagrams or any relevant examples of other agencies to make our case. This is the difficult part, the argument is "ar15's look too aggressive", .223/5.56 overpenetration in an urban environment is a large concern, and finally also due to an urban environment the "killing power" of a 5.56 round is said to retain its velocity for longer ranges over the 5.7. A personal gripe i take issue with, the PS90/P90 we use has no BUIS system, you heard that right. Because there is no extra space for it, we have an eotech mounted to top rail and nothing else. If the eotech has a catastrophic failure or dead batteries the officer is SOL (we check the batteries every shift, but murphy's law...) It sure would be great to have an AR slung with both. I'm asking for all hands on deck - LEO, .mil and civilian market people please weigh in, i'm trying to pick a fight for the greater good in this matter. If i am wrong then I can accept the FN platform is superior, however i'm an AR man and am not yet convinced after years of using the current rifle. Ballistic gelatin tests of any low power (40 grain HP ammo, etc) .223/5.56 round and 5.7 rounds would be awesome, bullet drop charts would also be good. I have found several examples of agency department policies regarding personally owned AR's serving as patrol weapons; but would always appreciate more. Rifle is to be deployed in reference to an active shooter scenario like North Hollywood Shootout or the CT school massacre. We have several schools in town with young children. What version do yall use? |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:05:12 AM EDT
[#6]
Tell them longer OAL and bbl will make them not point at each other when they stack.
Kinda like these guys. 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:06:52 AM EDT
[#7]
We had reliability issues with our p90's as well. If reliability is not enough of a factor, I don't know what will be. Are you on lightfighrer? They had a thread a while back in the Thin Blue Line section requesting patrol rifle policies.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:11:19 AM EDT
[#8]
to NOTSO: We use both versions, swat has select fire SBR version, patrol uses semi-auto full length barrel models
to Whifflebat: Yes, I am on lightfighter, I will start a post with them this evening if this doesn't go anywhere after a while. Agreed, training is paramount to success, moreso than equipment. My concern is greater reliability, more "personal ownership" of a weapon - knowing it is sighted in instead of being part of a weapons pool, knowing the sling is configured how you want it, having a BUIS system. Its a lot of small stuff that adds up to a big concern over the entire platform and the way things are done now. That's why i'm asking about policies, ballistic coefficients, penetration tests and real world examples of other agencies - it's not just the gun itself, but an entire agency that needs to evolve in order to fix the problem. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:14:07 AM EDT
[#9]
"Overpenetration" danger is overblown. There is no more danger of a round going through a bad guy and hitting an innocent person than there is of the officer simply missing the bad guy and hitting a bystander. It's one of those highly-unlikely events that just can't be planned for; in fact, trying to anticipate it might result in a policies that do more harm than good, like issuing inappropriate gun or ammunition.
If there's a deadly force confrontation, you shoot at and try to hit the bad guy. That's all you can do. That's all that can be asked of you. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:20:19 AM EDT
[#10]
I will caveat this by saying, I am a believer in the PDW concept. First, to me the answer depends upon the level of training and experience your average patrol rifle user has. If you department will allow for and fund the requisite training, the rifle is superior to the PDW, most other things being equal (I am assuming you're patrolling in a upper-middle class suburbian area.) If this is going to a once a year, fire and forget weapon, the PDW is superior. I would also say that for motorcycle patrol, bike patrol and other speciality purposes, the short OAL of the PDW is an advantage. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:20:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
"Overpenetration" danger is overblown. There is no more danger of a round going through a bad guy and hitting an innocent person than there is of the officer simply missing the bad guy and hitting a bystander. It's one of those highly-unlikely events that just can't be planned for; in fact, trying to anticipate it might result in a policies that do more harm than good, like issuing inappropriate gun or ammunition. If there's a deadly force confrontation, you shoot at and try to hit the bad guy. That's all you can do. That's all that can be asked of you. We have run our own penetration tests with 5.56 vs 5.7 ammo on an actual car. The 5.56 went through two doors with ease, a windshield at varying angles (hard point safety glass), side windows (soft point single side safety glass) etc and had no issues maintaining straight point of aim, point of impact. The 5.7 would be shot into a door and deflect to random exit points such as wheel wells, door a-frames, trunk. It's just such a hot, light round I guess that caused it to behave in such a funny way. This was not a scientific test, just a "learning by doing" tactical assessment to see how the rounds performed. Another reason I don't much care for the 5.7 |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:23:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
"Overpenetration" danger is overblown. There is no more danger of a round going through a bad guy and hitting an innocent person than there is of the officer simply missing the bad guy and hitting a bystander. It's one of those highly-unlikely events that just can't be planned for; in fact, trying to anticipate it might result in a policies that do more harm than good, like issuing inappropriate gun or ammunition. If there's a deadly force confrontation, you shoot at and try to hit the bad guy. That's all you can do. That's all that can be asked of you. This. You have to make them understand that the .223 is not a magical over penetrating buzz saw when loaded with a good tactical round. Take your admin out and show them what a good old 1950's 12ga slug will do to interior walls, ie Sheetrock, or a bad guy. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:27:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Overpenetration" danger is overblown. There is no more danger of a round going through a bad guy and hitting an innocent person than there is of the officer simply missing the bad guy and hitting a bystander. It's one of those highly-unlikely events that just can't be planned for; in fact, trying to anticipate it might result in a policies that do more harm than good, like issuing inappropriate gun or ammunition. If there's a deadly force confrontation, you shoot at and try to hit the bad guy. That's all you can do. That's all that can be asked of you. This. You have to make them understand that the .223 is not a magical over penetrating buzz saw when loaded with a good tactical round. Take your admin out and show them what a good old 1950's 12ga slug will do to interior walls, ie Sheetrock, or a bad guy. I completely agree the .223 isn't some malicious round that passes through 15 walls before it kills 4 innocent people, but the stigma attached to it, along with the ar15 being an evil black rifle - is what we are fighting against. I'm trying to sell this to a group of politicians as a good thing, we are in a politically anti-gun climate and I'm trying to persuade them over to our side, that's my purpose today. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:29:44 AM EDT
[#14]
"Looks" should have nothing to do with the choice. That's discrimination
 . Also "Over Penetration is BS. the 5.7 round penetrates very very well. Im no expert though.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:31:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
I completely agree the .223 isn't some malicious round that passes through 15 walls before it kills 4 innocent people, but the stigma attached to it, along with the ar15 being an evil black rifle - is what we are fighting against. I'm trying to sell this to a group of politicians as a good thing, we are in a politically anti-gun climate and I'm trying to persuade them over to our side, that's my purpose today. Well, I'd first attempt to get them to understand that the issuance of patrol rifles is nearly a universal thing. Get them to understand that officer safety is increased and city liability decreased by rifles vs. other long arms. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:32:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Over penetration? Your handgun will likely penetrate through more drywall than the .223HP.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:35:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Awww man! I have an original FiveSeven IOM with the large trigger guard and thousands of rounds of 5.7! Please don't tell me that the PS90 is a piece of junk! I have wanted one for years. oh by the way: I am a retired cop and there is no way in hell I'd carry anything smaller than a 5.56 carbine, preferring to carry M1A as was our policy - If you can qualify with the rifle and buy your own ammo, you can carry it.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:36:19 AM EDT
[#18]
One would think the cost per rifle and/or round would be a good starting point for the argument. Maintenance of the weapon during its life would be another.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:36:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
My agency issues PS90 and P90 rifles for patrol/swat use. The rifles themselves have encountered a number of reliability issues (trigger pack failures, firing pins breaking, magazines breaking when dropped) ...which is why some agencies that 5.7 fanbois like to trot out whenever the topic comes up have actually dropped them in favor of something else. and a number of officers are starting talks about personally owned AR15's for patrol carry. I need assistance in presenting hard evidence these are a viable platform for my agency. ...then I'm afraid you're shit out of luck, my friend. The magazines are one of the weakest point of the P90 and the AR-thing on the market that uses those mags is going to be just as bad in that regard. Perhaps worse, because at least FN spent a bunch of money trying to make that overly-complex contraption work. I don't think you're going to find anything approaching concrete evidence that the AR-inspired hybrids are going to be a viable platform. EDIT - for some reason I interpreted that as buying the AR's that use the 5.7 ammo and the P90 magazines. Duh. Ignore my stupid. I'm asking for all hands on deck - LEO, .mil and civilian market people please weigh in, i'm trying to pick a fight for the greater good in this matter. If i am wrong then I can accept the FN platform is superior, however i'm an AR man and am not yet convinced after years of using the current rifle. Ballistic gelatin tests of any low power (40 grain HP ammo, etc) .223/5.56 round and 5.7 rounds would be awesome, bullet drop charts would also be good. I have found several examples of agency department policies regarding personally owned AR's serving as patrol weapons; but would always appreciate more. Rifle is to be deployed in reference to an active shooter scenario like North Hollywood Shootout or the CT school massacre. We have several schools in town with young children. Shoot me a PM. I can put you in touch with some people who have a lot of that data (including solid research about the 5.56 and "overpenetration") at their fingertips and will share it with somebody who has legit LE creds. Another option you may want to look at: The concerns about the 5.56 vs. the PDW cartridges is legit in certain circumstances. H&K makes a better PDW that does all the stuff that the P90's 5.7 does, but does so in a more reliable package. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:39:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Jacksonville Sherriff office used to use them for the SWAT team. Well after several shootings with them and less than ideal results they ditched them and now carry AR's and Shotguns. The 5.7 round has no penetration through auto glass and that was ne issue that arose during several incidents aswell as ballistics on human flesh that were less than advertised.
Overall it's better than a handgun but not as good as a patrol rifle. If and when you need to deploy something more lethal than a handgun you should deploy the most lethal fight stopper you can and an AR15 is IMO the way to go. Maybe not in a 16 in barrel but if the dept authorizes an SBR then a 12.5 would be a great sized weapon. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:39:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Get a series of quotes for used PS90s.
Tell them you can get new AR-15s and recoup the costs by selling the PS90s used. If possible cite and record any and all reliability and breakage problems you have had with the PS90s/P90s. Address the perceived problem of over-penetration by asking Hornady and Federal to provide gelatin tests of their 5.56mm duty loads as well as the gelatin tests for your department's handgun carry loads. When they see that the 5.56mm loads don't tend to be more of an over-penetration problem than a handgun they will probably be surprised. If possible use factory data. Finally, if possible cite how many officers in your department have former .mil service. Familiarity with a firearm is a good thing! Wrap it up in a short concise Powerpoint presentation. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:40:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Bean counters, 5.56 ammo is cheaper.
All black guns are scary. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:43:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
My agency issues PS90 and P90 rifles for patrol/swat use. The rifles themselves have encountered a number of reliability issues (trigger pack failures, firing pins breaking, magazines breaking when dropped) ...which is why some agencies that 5.7 fanbois like to trot out whenever the topic comes up have actually dropped them in favor of something else. and a number of officers are starting talks about personally owned AR15's for patrol carry. I need assistance in presenting hard evidence these are a viable platform for my agency. ...then I'm afraid you're shit out of luck, my friend. The magazines are one of the weakest point of the P90 and the AR-thing on the market that uses those mags is going to be just as bad in that regard. Perhaps worse, because at least FN spent a bunch of money trying to make that overly-complex contraption work. I don't think you're going to find anything approaching concrete evidence that the AR-inspired hybrids are going to be a viable platform. EDIT - for some reason I interpreted that as buying the AR's that use the 5.7 ammo and the P90 magazines. Duh. Ignore my stupid. I'm asking for all hands on deck - LEO, .mil and civilian market people please weigh in, i'm trying to pick a fight for the greater good in this matter. If i am wrong then I can accept the FN platform is superior, however i'm an AR man and am not yet convinced after years of using the current rifle. Ballistic gelatin tests of any low power (40 grain HP ammo, etc) .223/5.56 round and 5.7 rounds would be awesome, bullet drop charts would also be good. I have found several examples of agency department policies regarding personally owned AR's serving as patrol weapons; but would always appreciate more. Rifle is to be deployed in reference to an active shooter scenario like North Hollywood Shootout or the CT school massacre. We have several schools in town with young children. Shoot me a PM. I can put you in touch with some people who have a lot of that data (including solid research about the 5.56 and "overpenetration") at their fingertips and will share it with somebody who has legit LE creds. Another option you may want to look at: The concerns about the 5.56 vs. the PDW cartridges is legit in certain circumstances. H&K makes a better PDW that does all the stuff that the P90's 5.7 does, but does so in a more reliable package. PM Sent |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:48:08 AM EDT
[#24]
I just purchased a PS90 and it has (3) BUIS, one on each side of the rail & a peep site down the center of the rail. They are not that great but they are on the carbine. I am curious on what yours look like.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:49:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I just purchased a PS90 and it has (3) BUIS, one on each side of the rail & a peep site down the center of the rail. They are not that great but they are on the carbine. I am curious on what yours look like. The first generation of P90 didn't come with the improved rails and iron sights. They had just the shitty integrated optic sight. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:51:51 AM EDT
[#26]
The P90, while excellent in the PDW role, is next to useless as a police patrol rifle. If your department values (PC appearance) that much, you'd be better served with .30-30 lever guns... seriously.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:53:56 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Get a series of quotes for used PS90s. Tell them you can get new AR-15s and recoup the costs by selling the PS90s used. If possible cite and record any and all reliability and breakage problems you have had with the PS90s/P90s. Address the perceived problem of over-penetration by asking Hornady and Federal to provide gelatin tests of their 5.56mm duty loads as well as the gelatin tests for your department's handgun carry loads. When they see that the 5.56mm loads don't tend to be more of an over-penetration problem than a handgun they will probably be surprised. If possible use factory data. Finally, if possible cite how many officers in your department have former .mil service. Familiarity with a firearm is a good thing! Wrap it up in a short concise Powerpoint presentation. Several months back FN was offering PS90's for $700 to LEO's. Not sure if they still are. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 6:59:52 AM EDT
[#28]
TAGGING for the violent anti P90 rants that will be visited upon this thread once those guys who abhor all things P90/5.7/FN show up.
Thread from a couple weeks back got pretty brutal. 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:01:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get a series of quotes for used PS90s. Tell them you can get new AR-15s and recoup the costs by selling the PS90s used. If possible cite and record any and all reliability and breakage problems you have had with the PS90s/P90s. Address the perceived problem of over-penetration by asking Hornady and Federal to provide gelatin tests of their 5.56mm duty loads as well as the gelatin tests for your department's handgun carry loads. When they see that the 5.56mm loads don't tend to be more of an over-penetration problem than a handgun they will probably be surprised. If possible use factory data. Finally, if possible cite how many officers in your department have former .mil service. Familiarity with a firearm is a good thing! Wrap it up in a short concise Powerpoint presentation. Several months back FN was offering PS90's for $700 to LEO's. Not sure if they still are. And they can sell those 700 dollar PS90s to civvies who regularly pay 1350+
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:03:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Well if they won't listen to reason, go for wood stocked Mini-14's.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:04:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get a series of quotes for used PS90s. Tell them you can get new AR-15s and recoup the costs by selling the PS90s used. If possible cite and record any and all reliability and breakage problems you have had with the PS90s/P90s. Address the perceived problem of over-penetration by asking Hornady and Federal to provide gelatin tests of their 5.56mm duty loads as well as the gelatin tests for your department's handgun carry loads. When they see that the 5.56mm loads don't tend to be more of an over-penetration problem than a handgun they will probably be surprised. If possible use factory data. Finally, if possible cite how many officers in your department have former .mil service. Familiarity with a firearm is a good thing! Wrap it up in a short concise Powerpoint presentation. Several months back FN was offering PS90's for $700 to LEO's. Not sure if they still are. And they can sell those 700 dollar PS90s to civvies who regularly pay 1350+ They could make a fortune for the department by doing that, but the OP is in an anti-gun area. Just imagine trying to persuade the same people who are scared of an AR-15 to sell PS90s to regular joes. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:11:37 AM EDT
[#32]
I have an older white optic PS90 and it has a BUIS on either side built in.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:13:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
They should have a .357 revolver and a night stick. who said we don't Well then. A nice Winchester in .357 would be the perfect patrol rifle to go with it. Issue frangible rounds too. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:15:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
to NOTSO: We use both versions, swat has select fire SBR version, patrol uses semi-auto full length barrel models to Whifflebat: Yes, I am on lightfighter, I will start a post with them this evening if this doesn't go anywhere after a while. Agreed, training is paramount to success, moreso than equipment. My concern is greater reliability, more "personal ownership" of a weapon - knowing it is sighted in instead of being part of a weapons pool, knowing the sling is configured how you want it, having a BUIS system. Its a lot of small stuff that adds up to a big concern over the entire platform and the way things are done now. That's why i'm asking about policies, ballistic coefficients, penetration tests and real world examples of other agencies - it's not just the gun itself, but an entire agency that needs to evolve in order to fix the problem. Do this yesterday. There are people on LF that have actually shot dudes with p90s and found them supremely wanting. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:18:45 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get a series of quotes for used PS90s. Tell them you can get new AR-15s and recoup the costs by selling the PS90s used. If possible cite and record any and all reliability and breakage problems you have had with the PS90s/P90s. Address the perceived problem of over-penetration by asking Hornady and Federal to provide gelatin tests of their 5.56mm duty loads as well as the gelatin tests for your department's handgun carry loads. When they see that the 5.56mm loads don't tend to be more of an over-penetration problem than a handgun they will probably be surprised. If possible use factory data. Finally, if possible cite how many officers in your department have former .mil service. Familiarity with a firearm is a good thing! Wrap it up in a short concise Powerpoint presentation. Several months back FN was offering PS90's for $700 to LEO's. Not sure if they still are. And they can sell those 700 dollar PS90s to civvies who regularly pay 1350+ They could make a fortune for the department by doing that, but the OP is in an anti-gun area. Just imagine trying to persuade the same people who are scared of an AR-15 to sell PS90s to regular joes. Yea, that is a perception problem. IIRC most LE sales guys would sweeten their deals by buying up a departments old firearms and letting jobbers sell them. S&W did this for years, but I don't know what they do now. Anyway, making a change as fiscally neutral as possible is something that I am sure will be required if the OP is going to get rid of the 5.7s. Just sell the concept as "trading them in". |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:19:15 AM EDT
[#36]
All you need to know about small caliber PDW weapons from Dr. Roberts:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913 |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:21:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
They should have a .357 revolver and a night stick. 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:24:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Several months back FN was offering PS90's for $700 to LEO's. Not sure if they still are. Yeah, I remember that. I about pulled the trigger on one, and then realized that I didn't really want it
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:25:15 AM EDT
[#39]
You can have what ever Joe Citizen is allowed to have. So if Joe Citizen can have a P90 with the good ammo, you can too. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:25:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Why did you ask in GD? |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 7:35:48 AM EDT
[#41]
im taking this over to LightFighter, thanks for the helpful contributions.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 8:56:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Tell them longer OAL and bbl will make them not point at each other when they stack. Kinda like these guys. Look at that moron with his finger on the trigger: 
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Posted: 6/17/2013 8:59:44 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tell them longer OAL and bbl will make them not point at each other when they stack. Kinda like these guys. Look at that moron with his finger on the trigger: http://imgick.al.com/home/bama-media/pgmain/img/birmingham-news/photo/2013/06/-72eb14d5398b27f0.JPG Look at the moron poster that doesn't know where the safety is!! |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 9:32:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: http://imgick.al.com/home/bama-media/pgmain/img/birmingham-news/photo/2013/06/-72eb14d5398b27f0.JPG Forgive me, but I can't take those guys serious with those little peashooters in-hand. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:07:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Welcome to the liberals taking over Texas...
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:13:26 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell them longer OAL and bbl will make them not point at each other when they stack. Kinda like these guys. Look at that moron with his finger on the trigger: http://imgick.al.com/home/bama-media/pgmain/img/birmingham-news/photo/2013/06/-72eb14d5398b27f0.JPG Look at the moron poster that doesn't know where the safety is!! They are the four rules, not the four suggestions. This is for a reason.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:14:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tell them longer OAL and bbl will make them not point at each other when they stack. Kinda like these guys. Look at that moron with his finger on the trigger: http://imgick.al.com/home/bama-media/pgmain/img/birmingham-news/photo/2013/06/-72eb14d5398b27f0.JPG Look at the moron poster that doesn't know where the safety is!! They are the four rules, not the four suggestions. This is for a reason. Maybe his finger is on the safety and not the trigger.
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:17:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Maybe his finger is on the safety and not the trigger. But isn't his finger his safety? Yo dog, I heard you like safeties....
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:21:26 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: TAGGING for the violent anti P90 rants that will be visited upon this thread once those guys who abhor all things P90/5.7/FN show up. Thread from a couple weeks back got pretty brutal. Might not be an issue if they didn't suck hind tit. |
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Posted: 6/17/2013 1:29:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
TAGGING for the violent anti P90 rants that will be visited upon this thread once those guys who abhor all things P90/5.7/FN show up. Thread from a couple weeks back got pretty brutal.
Might not be an issue if they didn't suck hind tit.
That's where the tit goes on a bullpup, duh. |
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