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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/13/2005 5:01:23 PM EDT
It seems like an extremely simple solution to a lot of the financial and employment problems in this country.

If companies actually made products in the USA and employed US citizens, wouldn't it make sense that more people would be employed and therefore more people to spend money? Not to mention more people to tax, which would drop our national deficit.

Also, what about cutting back on the amount of shit we take in from other countries. Let some people here start companies making cheap plastic crap. Employ more people in the process.

Why isn't it actually this simple?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:17:13 PM EDT
Yes, it is that simple.

The problem is that "our" government is not OUR government.

Think about it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:13:58 PM EDT
Our government is is its own intity. It works for itself and against the people, not for the people if that's what you mean
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:53:48 PM EDT
It's all about the bottom line my friend.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:18:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 3:19:22 AM EDT by glockguy40]
The reason is, if we were to do what you suggest, it would lower our living standards, our wages, our competitiveness in the world, and eventually cause our economic decline. A drastic economic decline would lead to a military decline; we would not be able afford the military we have now. Therefore, due to both the military and economic decline we would inevitably face, we would cease to be the world's number one superpower.

How would this take place. Well, if we could no longer import cheap crap from china, we would have to make it ourselves. This would create jobs, however, it would also cause the cost of living to rise for all americans. Think of all the everyday items that would go up in price. While more people would have jobs, americans living standards would decrease. Our dollars would buy less and less, and inflation would soar.

Why would companies have to increase their prices??? Because companies' labor costs would increase, making the cost for them to produce their product increase; they would then be forced to raise the price of their goods. Due to the increased price, they would be less competitive vis-a-vis other international competitors selling similar goods at cheaper prices. This would cause companies to eventually go out of business and the american economy to decline.

The only choice for companies to continue to compete in the international market at that point would be to lower the wages of their all-american workforce and to eliminate jobs. The elimination of jobs would cause an increasingly competitive job market in the country, leading to the reduction of salaries of americans throughout the country.

That is why we don't block foreign trade, and that is why we allow out-sourcing.

However, some modest declines in out-sourcing are possible with only minimal decreases in company profits. The problem is, corporations are responsible, not to Americans, but their stockholders. That means all their stockholders, many of whom are not American. Corporate Executives are charged with producing the most money possible for their stockholders, not for providing Americans jobs. Corporations have no civic responsibility.... they are true global entities, and they are beholden to no one's interests but their own. Corporations are the equivilant of a person, which is merely responsible for paying his taxes and nothing else.

That is the true and sad reality that is capitalism. Don't like it... I guess you could become a commie

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
How would this take place. Well, if we could no longer import cheap crap from china, we would have to make it ourselves. This would create jobs, however, it would also cause the cost of living to rise for all americans. Think of all the everyday items that would go up in price. While more people would have jobs, americans living standards would decrease. Our dollars would buy less and less, and inflation would soar.



If a bunch of companies were just starting off in order to produce an item no longer available due to, say trade cuts, they would only stand to profit. If they don't get so greedy and simply accept a reasonable profit as opposed to driving up thr price on something in order to triple their profit margin I can't see how this could go bad.

Yeah I understand the concept of cheap, overseas labor and how there's really no way to compete with that because of minimum wage laws, but I suspect the crap that we import from China is marked up beyond imagination. Look at say those Oxo Good Grips plastic kitchen utensils. Odds are they're manufactured in China or somewhere else outside the US. You can't tell me that one of their flipping jar opener actually cost more than $.50 to make. Considering how many Bed Bath and Beyonds there are in this country + everywhere else that sells them / their 650 some employees that they would go out of business if they dropped the price on their product by$1-2?

If the only place that a product could be gotten in the US was in the US then the demand would always exist and a company would always remain in business, wouldn't it?

Not to mention, what happens when China implodes and they reorganiz their government and regulate labor costs to bring them closer to Western minimum wage. Ok, well the US companies would just move to Mexico and say, sorry China...

Point is trade regulations are one of the few things that government should control so that US based businesses don't collapse our entire economic system by eventually outsourcing everything possible to cheap labor countries. Their goals may have the stockholder in their best interests, but when their stockholders lose money because the companies have put everyone in the unemployment line nobody will buy and of their crap... and then they and their stockholders suffer. So while the stockholders might be important, if they alienate consumer interests they can just as easily put themselves out of business since people always have another option.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:01:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 1:02:57 AM EDT by AROptics]
Cause they are gonna let same-sex "marry" [what virus A with virus B?] if we don't let them send our jobs to China.

And... there is no political party which represents the moral middle class. One for the filthy rich and one for the filthy period.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:09:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 1:10:59 AM EDT by glockguy40]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
How would this take place. Well, if we could no longer import cheap crap from china, we would have to make it ourselves. This would create jobs, however, it would also cause the cost of living to rise for all americans. Think of all the everyday items that would go up in price. While more people would have jobs, americans living standards would decrease. Our dollars would buy less and less, and inflation would soar.



If a bunch of companies were just starting off in order to produce an item no longer available due to, say trade cuts, they would only stand to profit. If they don't get so greedy and simply accept a reasonable profit as opposed to driving up thr price on something in order to triple their profit margin I can't see how this could go bad.

Yeah I understand the concept of cheap, overseas labor and how there's really no way to compete with that because of minimum wage laws, but I suspect the crap that we import from China is marked up beyond imagination. Look at say those Oxo Good Grips plastic kitchen utensils. Odds are they're manufactured in China or somewhere else outside the US. You can't tell me that one of their flipping jar opener actually cost more than $.50 to make. Considering how many Bed Bath and Beyonds there are in this country + everywhere else that sells them / their 650 some employees that they would go out of business if they dropped the price on their product by$1-2?

If the only place that a product could be gotten in the US was in the US then the demand would always exist and a company would always remain in business, wouldn't it?

Not to mention, what happens when China implodes and they reorganiz their government and regulate labor costs to bring them closer to Western minimum wage. Ok, well the US companies would just move to Mexico and say, sorry China...

Point is trade regulations are one of the few things that government should control so that US based businesses don't collapse our entire economic system by eventually outsourcing everything possible to cheap labor countries. Their goals may have the stockholder in their best interests, but when their stockholders lose money because the companies have put everyone in the unemployment line nobody will buy and of their crap... and then they and their stockholders suffer. So while the stockholders might be important, if they alienate consumer interests they can just as easily put themselves out of business since people always have another option.



Man... you are mixing up so many economic concepts... it would take me hours to explain this to you... and I just don't have that kind of free time. Just take a couple economics classes at your local college and you will get the jist.

I have to say though... this particular part cracks me up:


Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Their goals may have the stockholder in their best interests, but when their stockholders lose money because the companies have put everyone in the unemployment line nobody will buy and of their crap... and then they and their stockholders suffer. So while the stockholders might be important, if they alienate consumer interests they can just as easily put themselves out of business since people always have another option.



Companies down size their work-force all the time, laying off thousands of people. Major companies like Apple, Cisco, IBM etc have laid off 10,000 workers at one time.... and their products still sell quite well. The reason being... even if americans don't have jobs to afford their products, others around the world will have the money to buy them.... and therefore they can maintain their profits. Just because some guy lost his job at apple down the block from you and cant afford an i-pod, doesnt mean some guy in china won't be able to, especially since the chinese guy is the one who probably got your buddy's job.

This is era of globalization now.... we are stuck with it... so deal with it.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:15:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 1:15:42 AM EDT by AROptics]
We aren't "stuck" with shit. The rest of the world? Yup.

Like always, America is the "last best hope" of this earth. We need a "Bull Moose" party or the like that can kill off one of the rotting, putrid, stinking parties that we have today. History has seen the elimination of one of the two dominant parties. We need that today. We have no "loyal opposition". We only have the opportunistic opposition and they don't give a shit about Americans either.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:20:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:
We aren't "stuck" with shit. The rest of the world? Yup.

Like always, America is the "last best hope" of this earth. We need a "Bull Moose" party or the like that can kill off one of the rotting, putrid, stinking parties that we have today. History has seen the elimination of one of the two dominant parties. We need that today. We have no "loyal opposition". We only have the opportunistic opposition and they don't give a shit about Americans either.



Which party are you referring to??? They both believe in free trade. Bush himself is dedicated to free trade
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:32:28 AM EDT
On the actual issues that will maintain a vigorous American middle class they are the same. That's why one party has to go. The American middle class and American democracy are one and the same.

Neither party serves the interests of the American middle class.

The anomaly is world history is democracy. If America doesn't guard its democracy first. Then an anomaly is all democracy will have been.


Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:38:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AROptics:
On the actual issues that will maintain a vigorous American middle class they are the same. That's why one party has to go. The American middle class and American democracy are one and the same.

Neither party serves the interests of the American middle class.

The anomaly is world history is democracy. If America doesn't guard its democracy first. Then an anomaly is all democracy will have been.





I see what you are trying to say, however, a new party couldn't turn back the tides of globalization any more than either one of the parties we have today could. There is no turning the ship around. We can't isloate ourselves from the world... it would only hurt us in the long run. American manufacturing will never be totally eliminated, but very little will remain in 20 years. Americans will just have to find other work... new job skills and high level training is what is needed to ensure the middle class's security, not protectionism or isolationism.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:04:37 AM EDT
Could you imagine what a cell phone would cost if it were made in this country.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 10:38:29 AM EDT
I am in the process of starting a new business, and having gone to the American-based mfg/assy outlets, I cannot beat the price of a commie Chinese mfg/assy product. I tried Germany and Switzerland as well, and nobody can beat the commie Chinese prices. It is a real shame.

My retail price of the product if made in China would be <$185.00 while if it were mfg/assy in Europe it would be around $400.00 and, now get this - if it were made in the USA, the retail would be closer to $700.00!!! What a crock of shit!!

Yes, it is all about the bottom line. But it is also about much more than just that figure. IF, and I mean IF, this project gets off the ground, then by having the products mfg/assy in China, I will not need to invest in a building for the equipment; or the utilities and taxes that go along with said facility; nor will I need to hire the couple hundred people to work at the facility which includes paying mandatory minimum wages, unemployment, workers' comp., etc.; I won't need to go before the city/county boards and jump through hoops to get my facility approved; on and on and on.

I can have the products mfg/assy in China, shipped to me, stored in my garage and sold via website. Maybe after enough product is sold, I could try to start a facility in the USA - or, preferable, sell the small company to a larger company and retire with the big fat check in hand.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:04:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I am in the process of starting a new business, and having gone to the American-based mfg/assy outlets, I cannot beat the price of a commie Chinese mfg/assy product. I tried Germany and Switzerland as well, and nobody can beat the commie Chinese prices. It is a real shame.



Why is that? Because there's a sweatshop filled with little Chinese children that can make anything?

While I say it's a matter of principle I can't bame you for that big of a price difference. It's sad.

If more companies used US manufacturers is it possible that the prices would eventually come down? I just don't get it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:47:31 PM EDT
I think glockguy40 has the right theory on 'outsourcing' here. If I can remember correctly back to my (ohh so hazy) college days, the term is "economies of scale". Sure, kids in China and Taiwan can produce widgets at $0.30 each while American 30-somethings can produce the EXACT same thing for $2.30 each. That is why we buy widgets from China and Taiwan.

But in exchange for their $0.30 widgets, We get Japan's $20,000 Mazdas (factory in Tenn and others) and we get their Ford produced Jaguar supercars. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a sweet ride over a paddle that has a string attached to a rubber ball... It takes more skilled (American) workers to buld a car than it does for some dude in Asia to stand there with a staple gun. Ka-chunk... Ka-chunk... Ka-chunk...

They'd want $15 an hour for that nonsense here!!!!


Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:57:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
The reason is, ...<snip>...

That is the true and sad reality that is capitalism. Don't like it... I guess you could become a commie



A good grasp of economic theory. And that is why the solution of trade barriers is not so simple.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:59:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 556newman:
If I can remember correctly back to my (ohh so hazy) college days, the term is "economies of scale".



Free trade theory is based in part on the Production Possibilities curve. Too much to write here.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:09:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 8:12:06 PM EDT by Mattl]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
It seems like an extremely simple solution to a lot of the financial and employment problems in this country.

If companies actually made products in the USA and employed US citizens, wouldn't it make sense that more people would be employed and therefore more people to spend money? Not to mention more people to tax, which would drop our national deficit.

Also, what about cutting back on the amount of shit we take in from other countries. Let some people here start companies making cheap plastic crap. Employ more people in the process.

Why isn't it actually this simple?



We are a CAPITOLISTSConsumer driven economy. Price is everything to a consumer and the consumer is the backbone of the market. If it is cheaper to produce elsewhere and quality of product is consistent why pay bloated labor costs here? Unions and Gov. regs and restrictions just burden the market. Why should someone be paid $20 an hour to do a job a trained monkey can do or a machine can do better?


ETA:It might not have occurred to you but you were just preaching the virtues of Socialism.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:25:25 PM EDT
Tell you what. I'll go to Barnes & Noble and pick up a copy of your book when it is published. But for the condensed version of MY book, what is given up to 'outsourcing' is more than made up for by the jobs and productivity that the 'insourcing' the overseas low costs provide. Not that anyone would have bought it or anything, I just saved you $14.95 ($24.95 hardcover). $4.95 if autographed. Hehe...


Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:34:33 PM EDT
One real big problem that I see with business in this country is that top executives are making $30-$50 million plus bennies and stock options. Sorry but no one is worth that much money. Spread that around to workers, stock holders and to produce a more affordable product. It isn't the end all to the problem but a damn good start.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:02:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By river_rat:
One real big problem that I see with business in this country is that top executives are making $30-$50 million plus bennies and stock options. Sorry but no one is worth that much money. Spread that around to workers, stock holders and to produce a more affordable product. It isn't the end all to the problem but a damn good start.



One real big problem I see with the solution to your one big real problem is that the Marxist system has never worked in real life. I don't think it will EVER work, nor has 55+ years of Western economists. Socialist and Communist theories may sound good to some, but remember it was just a theory. It doesn't work in real life. There once was a THEORY that the world was flat....
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:04:17 PM EDT
R.I.C.O
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:11:40 PM EDT
Socialist /Communist has nothing to do with it. It is about the people, consumers and stockholders taking control of the country instead of the elite ruling. You know "For the people, by the people." I have nothing against capitalism. However excessive greed has a tendency to be self-ruinous.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 10:04:00 PM EDT
RiverRat, you make a good argument. I agree with you in principle. The heads of the gigantor corporations are pulling in more than they are worth (I mean, come on -- $30-50 MILLION a year? thats freakin' rediculous!)
For arguments' sake however, the people and the consumers happen to be the same. The stockholders are the real owners in a capitolist system. The elite are the few who try to keep the whole sytem chugging.

In our society, the people/consumers are going to buy the goods of greater quality and lesser price. Those goods (and some of the services) will come from overseas. That has been the fact since mankind learned how to build carts and boats. I think that some people/consumers will buy inferior and overpriced goods just because they are Made in America, but most will not.

As stated, I believe the stockholders are the real owners and benifactors of the capitolist system. Sure the 'elite' own the most of the corporations, but believe me, they listen when the shareowners speak up. Worldcom, Enron, Tyco -- the 'elite' DO answer to the common citizen when they try to take what is ours. which leads us to...

Greed. When it comes to the question of greed many are guilty. But there are other owners and presidents and CEO's and whatevers out there who take the profits of their industry and redeploy it into research and development. Take the oil companies for example. While I am not defending the recent surge in energy costs, we must believe that a high portion of their profits are going towards searching for new forms of energy. Whether they are attempting to exploit known petrol sites in the US (ANWAR anyone?) or developing alternative sources to keep us warm, I doubt all of the RECORD profits they are receiving go to the heads of Exxon/Mobile etc.

But the head of a multi-billion dollar company does deserve a just reward. After all it's not like they just strutted into a super-duper job. If it was that easy, all those people/consumers/shareholders would be CEOs and Presidents and Chairmen of the freakin' Boards.

-556newman
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