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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/13/2004 10:26:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 10:28:25 PM EST by olyarms]
Why don't we take non violent criminals and put them to work to pay off their debt to society?Instead we add up more debt by placing them in jail cells.


If some one commits bank fraud I do not see it being a plus to spend $60 a day in jail for 5 years.
I would much rather see him working a 9-5 and giving every dollar off his paycheck back to the victims except for that of what is needed to live. Cheap apartment generic food, bread wheat cereal cheap cuts of beef etc. No fancy shit like cookies etc.

JMHO
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:38:12 PM EST
I agree. Problem is that an entire kingdom has grown up around the current Legal System. Pols trying to maintan power by empire building, lawyers breeding like roaches always looking for ways to make money off the system, judges that decide to "interpet" the laws and Constitution in order right perceived wrongs. The whole thing simply feeds off itself and demands ever more to continue to grow. Anything to upset that will be violently resisted.

Again, we have a system in place to enforce LAWS, not bring JUSTICE to criminals and victims. The two are often lightyears apart.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:54:01 PM EST
It does happen but isn't noticed enough if you are only looking at the people in jail. Instead consider the convicted who get probation, fines with payment plans, etc. I work in a County Jail and we have work furloughs available to allow an inmate to be punished with less punishment on his spouse and kids. He gets out for 8-12 hours a day depending on his work schedule and gets to pay his bills and feed the kids but has to report back to the jail after work for his whole sentence. The Adult Probation Dept controls the release conditions for the court and gets $12 per day form the inmate to cover overhead costs.

Most of the folks doing time aren't responsible enough to pay their fines or restitution unless you force them to.

We have a local Judge who sentences people to 180 days in jail for failing to pay off their fines or restitution. The problem is what is a bigger problem for society and taxpayers: punishing a nonworking alcoholic guy who won't/can't pay his $150 fine or taxpayers paying $10,000 to keep him in jail for 6 months?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:11:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:11:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 3:43:04 AM EST by CockedandLocked]
edited to remove illegal comment ..CnL


SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:21:22 AM EST
First of all, you are confusing "jail" with "prison". If someone is locked up for 5 years, they are in "Prison". And in Prison, they DO have a job. Every state inmate ( in NYS at least) must have some sort of job, as far as I know from talking to the State COs who are or have been in my Guard unit.They get paid a few pennies an hour to do things like build furniture that is sold to governmental agencies, run farms on certain prisons, etc.
In jail its a different issue. In NYS, local incarceration is for people sentenced to a term of incarceration of less than one year, or two consecutive one year terms ( in my years in Corrections before going to the Road, I only ever saw one guy draw the two consecutive one year bids, and within a month of being released he had intentionally smeared himself over a guardrail on his motorcycle..guess he flipped out during that jail bid more than we reallized). In jails in NYS, it is up to the discretion of the Sheriff whether he wants to run things like chain gangs/ work crews outside the facility. I don't know how other states run it. There are no industries like the farms or furniture building in which to employ jail populations, and most jails don't have sufficient staff to send some out with works crews. You can only require convicted inmates to perform any sort of labor ( one reason why the Trusty is a convicted inmate), as the pending-trial inmate still has the presumption of innocence in their favor.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:30:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 10:48:42 AM EST by MisterFloppy]
I hate crocodiles.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:32:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 1:32:39 AM EST by MisterFloppy]
Whoops
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 2:35:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Why don't we take non violent criminals and put them to work to pay off their debt to society?Instead we add up more debt by placing them in jail cells.


If some one commits bank fraud I do not see it being a plus to spend $60 a day in jail for 5 years.
I would much rather see him working a 9-5 and giving every dollar off his paycheck back to the victims except for that of what is needed to live. Cheap apartment generic food, bread wheat cereal cheap cuts of beef etc. No fancy shit like cookies etc.

JMHO



Where to start? The typical first time inmate in California prisons has alrerady been previously convicted of five felonies. Thats 5 chances to turn his life around, which were ignored before the state finally said fuckem and locked him up. Once locked up the typicall inmate only serves 1/3 of his sentance.

In my experiance I must arrest someone three times for the same felony before they even end up of formal probation. First offense, diversion. Second offense, informal probation. Third offense, formal probation.

Between diverson, drug court, probation and house arrest you must make crime a lifestyle choise for a significant portion of your adult life before you will ever see the inside of a prison cell.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 2:49:48 AM EST
In Maricopa County Arizona ALL inmates of the County Jails who are NOT in isolation (murderers, child molesters) are allowed to volunteer for work cleaning highways, servicing county property.

We have chain gangs.

We also have a rescue center for abused animals that the inmates can volunteer for work at.

And also those who are in jail for certain economic crimes that are required to pay restitution are allowed work release at their existing job so they can continue to make payments.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:10:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:16:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink:
I think we should take all our prisoners and make them ride stationary bicycles that generate electricity. They can do it in 30 minutes shifts.






I like it.


I'd prefer to see jail terms replaced with hard labor terms spent stacking rocks on the souther border to build "the great wall of the USA".

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:22:02 AM EST


[
Where to start? The typical first time inmate in California prisons has alrerady been previously convicted of five felonies. Thats 5 chances to turn his life around, which were ignored before the state finally said fuckem and locked him up. Once locked up the typicall inmate only serves 1/3 of his sentance.

In my experiance I must arrest someone three times for the same felony before they even end up of formal probation. First offense, diversion. Second offense, informal probation. Third offense, formal probation.

Between diverson, drug court, probation and house arrest you must make crime a lifestyle choise for a significant portion of your adult life before you will ever see the inside of a prison cell.



Which only reinforces my "conviction" (haha) that the whole system is about extracting money and not so much about the lofty ideals thrown around by prosecutors, judges and lawyers.

Where did all these clients of the system come to learn that America is a place where you can get something for nothing? Who taught them that? The public schools maybe? An awful lot of Americans have an awful lot of bad habits, it seems. Or are you dealing with mostly illegal alien border crossers or what?

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:22:39 AM EST
we have "Pay to stay" you pay to be in the clink here.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:26:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
In Maricopa County Arizona ALL inmates of the County Jails who are NOT in isolation (murderers, child molesters) are allowed to volunteer for work cleaning highways, servicing county property.

We have chain gangs.

We also have a rescue center for abused animals that the inmates can volunteer for work at.

And also those who are in jail for certain economic crimes that are required to pay restitution are allowed work release at their existing job so they can continue to make payments.



+1

Two words for effective criminal management - Joe Arpaio
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:33:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
Which only reinforces my "conviction" (haha) that the whole system is about extracting money and not so much about the lofty ideals thrown around by prosecutors, judges and lawyers.


No, what he's talking about is the philosophy that drives the ATI ) Alternatives to Incarceration) movement in this country; essentially that all crime is the cause of mental illness and therefore should not be treated by incareceration but by mental health treatment and intervention. That is nothing about money ( although ATI geta ton of money), but about a philosophy about the root causes of crime. Of course, its a broken philosophy when its put into practice



Where did all these clients of the system come to learn that America is a place where you can get something for nothing? Who taught them that? The public schools maybe? An awful lot of Americans have an awful lot of bad habits, it seems. Or are you dealing with mostly illegal alien border crossers or what?




They are your neighbors, your classmates, the people you pass on the street. I cannot walk down a street in my town without seeing someone I know was in jail, and if I know them, it was more than once. They are not some boogie man foreigner that you can conveniently blame.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:37:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
In Maricopa County Arizona ALL inmates of the County Jails who are NOT in isolation (murderers, child molesters) are allowed to volunteer for work cleaning highways, servicing county property.

We have chain gangs.

We also have a rescue center for abused animals that the inmates can volunteer for work at.

And also those who are in jail for certain economic crimes that are required to pay restitution are allowed work release at their existing job so they can continue to make payments.



+1

Two words for effective criminal management - Joe Arpaio



Sadly most of his deputies and civilian employees hate him...
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:38:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:40:06 AM EST
Why do you beleve that anything has changed from the past Campybob?

There was a time we just hanged everyone the jury didn't like, so there was no need for prisons, other than that, were there really fewer people being arrested?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:45:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
why is it that way?

why is there so damn many people going thru the justice system?

man, we live in crazy times.



Not so. The criminal element only comprises about 1 % of the population. I don't believe that number has gone up. But the population has gone up as well. When this country was formed, the largest cities barely held a population of 100,000, and there was only a handful of those. The national population was, what..a few million, if that, right? The social dynamics on how a small population interacts in general and how it deals with its own offenders is different than how a larger population recognizes the offenders in its midst and how it deals with them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:43:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
why is it that way?

why is there so damn many people going thru the justice system?

man, we live in crazy times.



Not so. The criminal element only comprises about 1 % of the population. I don't believe that number has gone up. But the population has gone up as well. When this country was formed, the largest cities barely held a population of 100,000, and there was only a handful of those. The national population was, what..a few million, if that, right? The social dynamics on how a small population interacts in general and how it deals with its own offenders is different than how a larger population recognizes the offenders in its midst and how it deals with them.


Um your wrong there I am willing to be 1/5 adults will be put in jail atleast one time in their life.,
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:53:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Why don't we take non violent criminals and put them to work to pay off their debt to society?Instead we add up more debt by placing them in jail cells.


If some one commits bank fraud I do not see it being a plus to spend $60 a day in jail for 5 years.
I would much rather see him working a 9-5 and giving every dollar off his paycheck back to the victims except for that of what is needed to live. Cheap apartment generic food, bread wheat cereal cheap cuts of beef etc. No fancy shit like cookies etc.

JMHO



Cookies is fancy?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:07:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
we already lock up more people than any other country on the planet and more per capitata.

man, i wish i had an answer to what ails our justice system. we live in a country full of 'real' criminals and insist on writing new laws everyday that make MORE folks into criminals.

the incarceration 'business' in one of the most rapidly growing in the country and there is something disturbing in that statement.



IMHO, because we're also a freerer society than any where else. Freedom of choice also entails bad choices.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:11:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 11:15:36 AM EST by legalese77]

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Why don't we take non violent criminals and put them to work to pay off their debt to society?Instead we add up more debt by placing them in jail cells.


If some one commits bank fraud I do not see it being a plus to spend $60 a day in jail for 5 years.
I would much rather see him working a 9-5 and giving every dollar off his paycheck back to the victims except for that of what is needed to live. Cheap apartment generic food, bread wheat cereal cheap cuts of beef etc. No fancy shit like cookies etc.

JMHO



cuts of beef? that sounds like you would improve conditions...the entree at most jails that I am familiar with is something like this:

breakfast: oatmeal/gruel type substance served cold and congealed
lunch: tuna fish spread with unidentifiable substances in it served cold on bread so stale you'd swear it was toast
dinner: cold hot dog and if you are fortunate, there will be some stale bread left over to wrap around it

eta: maybe you're thinking of prison? the prisons I have been in are a little nicer
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:19:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
why is it that way?

why is there so damn many people going thru the justice system?

man, we live in crazy times.



Not so. The criminal element only comprises about 1 % of the population. I don't believe that number has gone up. But the population has gone up as well. When this country was formed, the largest cities barely held a population of 100,000, and there was only a handful of those. The national population was, what..a few million, if that, right? The social dynamics on how a small population interacts in general and how it deals with its own offenders is different than how a larger population recognizes the offenders in its midst and how it deals with them.


Um your wrong there I am willing to be 1/5 adults will be put in jail atleast one time in their life.,



Only if your black Oly.

Otherwise you need to prove that.

We have almost 300 million people in this country.
2.5 million are in prison right now.

Not even one percent. When you consider the rate of recidivism there is probably no more than 3 percent or so of the population ALIVE that is a ex con.

Its very hard to get to your one in 5 figure.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:26:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
First of all, you are confusing "jail" with "prison". If someone is locked up for 5 years, they are in "Prison". And in Prison, they DO have a job. Every state inmate ( in NYS at least) must have some sort of job, as far as I know from talking to the State COs who are or have been in my Guard unit.They get paid a few pennies an hour to do things like build furniture that is sold to governmental agencies, run farms on certain prisons, etc.
In jail its a different issue. In NYS, local incarceration is for people sentenced to a term of incarceration of less than one year, or two consecutive one year terms ( in my years in Corrections before going to the Road, I only ever saw one guy draw the two consecutive one year bids, and within a month of being released he had intentionally smeared himself over a guardrail on his motorcycle..guess he flipped out during that jail bid more than we reallized). In jails in NYS, it is up to the discretion of the Sheriff whether he wants to run things like chain gangs/ work crews outside the facility. I don't know how other states run it. There are no industries like the farms or furniture building in which to employ jail populations, and most jails don't have sufficient staff to send some out with works crews. You can only require convicted inmates to perform any sort of labor ( one reason why the Trusty is a convicted inmate), as the pending-trial inmate still has the presumption of innocence in their favor.


As far as every inmate having a job, well they have a "job title" the lazy ones that wont do anything they call WALKMAN they walk around the housing unit BSing and moving drugs. and get paid $7.50 state tip plus $1 for the job( and thats a month) Its bullshit the way they get special treatment in there, most of them have it better in there then they did at home.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:27:43 AM EST
So many people going through the criminal justice system is not because of the system itself. It's because of society. My parents taught me right from wrong, about responsability, integrity and honor. As a younger man, I broke the law and had to pay the consequences....which included 24 hours of jail time.
This affected me later on in life and made it very difficult for me to become a LEO (set me back by about 10+ years). I didn't blame the system, I blamed myself.
Crime is crime. People need to take and accept responsability and suffer the consequences of their actions....but that doesn't seem to be the values that are taught to the kids these days.
Parents don't want to take responsability for disciplining their kids either. They expect the schools or the police to do it for them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:27:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
In Maricopa County Arizona ALL inmates of the County Jails who are NOT in isolation (murderers, child molesters) are allowed to volunteer for work cleaning highways, servicing county property.

We have chain gangs.

We also have a rescue center for abused animals that the inmates can volunteer for work at.

And also those who are in jail for certain economic crimes that are required to pay restitution are allowed work release at their existing job so they can continue to make payments.



+1

Two words for effective criminal management - Joe Arpaio



The unsentenced guys in Maricopa County jails all look forward to getting out of jail and going to prison.

Makes me wonder what it would be like if the prisons only had two meals, no pillows, no tobacco or coffee, etc.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:42:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:49:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Where to start? The typical first time inmate in California prisons has alrerady been previously convicted of five felonies.



I though California had a three strikes law for felons.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 2:25:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Where to start? The typical first time inmate in California prisons has alrerady been previously convicted of five felonies.



I though California had a three strikes law for felons.




Not all felonies apply. Those felonies and wobblers that are flexed down to misdemeanors, or for which the defendant completes diversion, never apply. Say a guy gets arrested for an ounce of methamphetamine, a switchblade, and drunk driving (drugs). The DA throws out the weapon change and under the influence charge, and flexes the possession for sales charge down to simple possesion. in exchange the defendant pleads guilty to simple possession and is sentanced to an 18-month outpatient rehab program. He does his 20 AA classess and three clean piss tests, and 18 months later the "conviction" never happened. Most times he will contuinue to sell drugs during the process. if he gets arrested for any drug related charge during that time its not handled as a new crime or even probation violation, is just a sight setback in his treatment program, everyone slips...

the worst part is all drug relatred crimes are handled as drug crimes. If I arrest a guy in a stolen car he may go to county jail for 90 days for possession of stolen property, or at least formal probation. But if the same guy is arrested in a stolen car with cocaine in his pocket, now its a drug crime, no jail, treatment only. Some cops have taken to throwing drugs away that they find on suspcet to take the caes out of the realm of the drug courts.

There are simular programs for chronic drunk drivers, sex offenders, and wife beaters.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:39:32 PM EST
Ar15fan, that's just nuts. A guy gets arrested in a stolen care with cocaine and he gets treatment? Strange.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:52:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:
Ar15fan, that's just nuts. A guy gets arrested in a stolen care with cocaine and he gets treatment? Strange.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...


Same here; that case would be tagged a drug related case and he'd be put into the drug ATI court.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:07:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Why don't we take non violent criminals and put them to work to pay off their debt to society?Instead we add up more debt by placing them in jail cells.
If some one commits bank fraud I do not see it being a plus to spend $60 a day in jail for 5 years.
I would much rather see him working a 9-5 and giving every dollar off his paycheck back to the victims except for that of what is needed to live. Cheap apartment generic food, bread wheat cereal cheap cuts of beef etc. No fancy shit like cookies etc.
JMHO



Here's why you should lock up non-violent crimals.
Accused was on work release
Man arrested on suspicion of assaulting volunteer firefighter
By Heidi Rowley
Staff writer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The man arrested on suspicion of assaulting a Lindsay volunteer firefighter had been working at the fire station that same day as part of the Tulare County Sheriff Department's work-release program.

California Department of Forestry and Fire Prevention Capt. Manuel Garcia said Juan Nunez, 19, worked last Thursday at the fire station, at 19603 Avenue 228. He was one of several workers who are part of the Sheriff's Work Alternative Program.

Sheriff's Lt. Kevin Mizner said the work-release program is for those who are convicted of nonviolent crimes, saving space in the jails for people with heavier sentences.

Without revealing Nunez's conviction, Mizner said it was a misdemeanor, and that he had been sentenced to six days in jail. He was approved to work off his sentence in the SWAP program.

"This was obviously not the type of crime that he was in the SWAP program for," Mizner said.

Nunez was working one day every week at the Lindsay station. Garcia said SWAP workers are usually required to mow lawns or clean up around the station.

Nunez had finished the fifth day of his sentence when he left for the day. The fire department says he returned with a juvenile to the CDF station to burglarize it. He and the juvenile were taking a lawn mower and tools when they were caught by volunteer firefighter Ken Hilton according to the fire department. Hilton was hit, and Nunez and the juvenile fled.

Fire Prevention Specialist Mike Weger said that about 8 p.m. Thursday, firefighters were dispatched to a pile of olive trees that was on fire about two miles away at Ave-nue 245 and Road 208. When the firefighters left, the paid volunteer firefighters were called in to take their place.

Garcia said the firefighters were only gone a few minutes before Hilton showed up and caught two people burglarizing the station. The two got away, but Nunez and the juvenile were arrested two hours later, and the stolen items were recovered.

Weger, who is investigating the debris fire, said it was set deliberately and that he believes it was started as a diversion for the robbery. He is still investigating who may have set the fire.

This is the second time in a year inmates who were part of a work-release program have participated in a high-profile crime.

Oviando Villareal was sentenced to 302 days for elder

Assault

abuse by theft but was accepted into the Day Reporting Center Program. He was to work five days per week on a 400-acre farm set up by the Sheriff's Department. In January he was arrested for slashing the tires of at least 11 elderly women. He would pretend to help them change a tire, but managed to steal four purses. At least two of the robbery attempts happened on days he didn't show to do his work release program.

Mizner said inmates who commit crimes while they are on the work release program are "very rare."

"It's been in place [since 1995], and the significant incidents have been very few," he said.

Garcia said SWAP inmates have been working at the Lindsay CDF station for several years, and the station has never had any problems with them until now.

"This is just an isolated case," Garcia said. "This is not something that happens all the time."

Mizner said there are about 400-450 people working in one of the two work-release programs, most of them participating in community service-like programs, while being able to maintain their own employment and serve their sentence.

"Occasionally they are going to be involved in criminal activity, but it's no different from those who are out on parole or probation," Mizner said.

Nunez is now facing felony charges of burglary and assaulting a firefighter.

Email this story

Originally published Tuesday, October 12, 2004



Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:42:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Where to start? The typical first time inmate in California prisons has alrerady been previously convicted of five felonies.



I though California had a three strikes law for felons.




Not all felonies apply. Those felonies and wobblers that are flexed down to misdemeanors, or for which the defendant completes diversion, never apply. Say a guy gets arrested for an ounce of methamphetamine, a switchblade, and drunk driving (drugs). The DA throws out the weapon change and under the influence charge, and flexes the possession for sales charge down to simple possesion. in exchange the defendant pleads guilty to simple possession and is sentanced to an 18-month outpatient rehab program. He does his 20 AA classess and three clean piss tests, and 18 months later the "conviction" never happened. Most times he will contuinue to sell drugs during the process. if he gets arrested for any drug related charge during that time its not handled as a new crime or even probation violation, is just a sight setback in his treatment program, everyone slips...

the worst part is all drug relatred crimes are handled as drug crimes. If I arrest a guy in a stolen car he may go to county jail for 90 days for possession of stolen property, or at least formal probation. But if the same guy is arrested in a stolen car with cocaine in his pocket, now its a drug crime, no jail, treatment only. Some cops have taken to throwing drugs away that they find on suspcet to take the caes out of the realm of the drug courts.

There are simular programs for chronic drunk drivers, sex offenders, and wife beaters.



maybe you guys are too efficient out there and there's no room left for the BGs
1oz of coke just once here and you're off to DOC, have a nice trip... no diversion, no plea to misdemeanor, do your treatment in prison
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