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Posted: 12/26/2003 10:37:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:41:28 AM EDT
I thought Iranians are not Arabs but Persians?  Does Iran have any radical muslim groups that want to destroy Israel and the US?
I didn't know 15K people perished.  In many ways Iran is way ahead of the stone age mentalities of the likes of Taliban, they're probably the most westernized country there.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:44:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy:
Does Iran have any radical muslim groups that want to destroy Israel and the US?
View Quote

Does Hizbollah ring a bell?
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 10:47:56 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:46:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 10:47:09 AM EDT by Airwolf]
It's 2 dead here.

The only reason that they died is because it was an old, unreinforced brick buliding that was built way pre-code.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:49:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 10:49:39 AM EDT by Dru]
No one likes us! [rolleyes]

Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:50:21 AM EDT
Just wondering.  Now they want our help, I say forget it.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:52:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If ever you needed a stark, impartial comparisson nature just provided one.

Iran just had a 6.3 earthquake, California recently had a 6.5 earthquake.

In Iran 15,000 people are dead.

In California I think 2 people died. Anyone got the actual number?

It is amazing that the people in Iran want to live a primitive stone age existence where natural disasters are catastrophic and not interfered with because it must be "Allahs Will."

[red]It may be amazing, but it's their choice.[/red]

But what is even more amazing to me is their desire to force this lifestyle onto the world

[red]Much like the current administrations desire to shove Democracy down the worlds throat?[/red]


and the incredible numbers of people who enjoy "our lifestyle" (yes fundamentalists muslim US citizens I'm talking about you) but encourage a transition from our lifestyle to theirs.
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:54:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy:
Just wondering.  Now they want our help, I say forget it.
View Quote


[red]Um,I don't think they've asked for our help dude.[/red]
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 10:54:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 10:57:51 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:02:03 AM EDT
Iranians are good people.  They just went a little overboard in 1979.  But it's a really young society that doesn't appreciate the corrupt oppression of the mullahs, and is generally friendly towards the US.  They're not like the Arabs who are just ogoing through a historical bout of psychosis, like the Germans did in the 1930's and 1940's.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:05:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Sniper_408:

[red]Much like the current administrations desire to shove Democracy down the worlds throat?[/red]

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Normally I'd be inclined to agree.

The exception is "If you make us come over there, we are going to change things. This way we don't have to go again later."
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The US may have the power to change thing's for a short-term, but if the people of a nation don't like the changes, they wont last for long.  What's more, everything the US does in the middle east come back to bite us in the ass;  And you better hope to God the fundies don't off the Musharif(sp?) the leader of Pakistan or the US forces in Afganistan and Iraq will make nice targets for those medium range low yeild nukes Pakistan has.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:13:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy:
An Iranian-American on CNN did.
View Quote


I stand corrected sir [:)]
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:19:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 11:20:09 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:28:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Sniper_408:

The US may have the power to change thing's for a short-term, but if the people of a nation don't like the changes, they wont last for long.  What's more, everything the US does in the middle east come back to bite us in the ass;  
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Yeah but just letting them shit on us and pretending they weren't like Clinton did wasn't exactly fixing things either.

Doing things half assed like Bush I just made us look not capable. Bush II is doing better but still leaves a bit to be desired.

Japan changed it's whole way of life and with noted exception generally learned that it was not cost effective to screw with our county.

[red]This is the lesson the muslim nations need to learn.[/red]
View Quote


I believe class is in session.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:39:42 AM EDT
Steyr,
The difference in death rates from the earthquakes is due to location, population density, and building techniques.
We have many locations here in the US that would suffer the same casualty figures in a quake like that, due to population congestion and older construction.
If that recent Cali quake had struck in a downtown area, casualties could have been horrible.

Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:52:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 11:53:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch:
Steyr,
The difference in death rates from the earthquakes is due to location, population density, and building techniques.
We have many locations here in the US that would suffer the same casualty figures in a quake like that, due to population congestion and older construction.
If that recent Cali quake had struck in a downtown area, casualties could have been horrible.

View Quote

[BS2] [BS2] [BS2] [BS2] [BS2]

Anybody remember the 1989 quake near San Francisco? 7.1 or 7.2 depending upon who you believe, but nevertheless much larger than the recent quake in Iran. The SF bay area is loaded with people, a much higher population density than anyplace in the middle east and we (yes, I was there) didn't suffer the fatalities that the ragheads did. SteyrAUG is 0.0 CEP.

CW
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:04:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 12:05:55 PM EDT by Hannah_Reitsch]
Cold Warrior, I mentioned construction techniques, did I not?

SF has had earthquakes in mind for a long time now, while rebuilding the city at various times.

Even at that, the Marina district, built on reclaimed salt marshes, and the Embarcadero multi-decked highway suffered some bad damage and cost some lives in that last big one, as I recall.

The city of Bam, in Iran, the epicenter of this quake, was mostly *2,000* year old mud brick construction, and was somewhat of a historical site as well.

As we have nothing that old to compare to here in the US, it is silly to argue that it is somehow our cultural superiority that keeps us safe during earthquakes.

Look at what happens when big quakes hit Mexico City, for example.

That would explain the difference, I am sure.
It has nothing to do with religion or culture, and everything to do with population density, construction techniques, and age of the city.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:20:56 PM EDT
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:30:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:47:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch:
Cold Warrior, I mentioned construction techniques, did I not?

SF has had earthquakes in mind for a long time now, while rebuilding the city at various times.

Even at that, the Marina district, built on reclaimed salt marshes, and the Embarcadero multi-decked highway suffered some bad damage and cost some lives in that last big one, as I recall.

The city of Bam, in Iran, the epicenter of this quake, was mostly *2,000* year old mud brick construction, and was somewhat of a historical site as well.

As we have nothing that old to compare to here in the US, it is silly to argue that it is somehow our cultural superiority that keeps us safe during earthquakes.

Look at what happens when big quakes hit Mexico City, for example.

That would explain the difference, I am sure.
It has nothing to do with religion or culture, and everything to do with population density, construction techniques, and age of the city.
View Quote

You also mentioned location and population density. I lived near the epicenter of the 89 quake in a victorian home that was built in 1863 in an area of millions of people. The point I am trying to make is that the technology of the structures involved will determine to a great extent the number of deaths per capita. And I equate structure technology as it relates to shelter from the elements to the advancement of a culture. NYC would be toast if it was hit by a strong earthquake, but it is located in an earthquake benign region, thus structure technology goes the path of other necessities such as cost, weather protection, etc. The same applies to the village structures in Africa. No earthquakes there, so structure technology follows the necessities required to provide adequate shelter from the elements. In Iraq, earthquakes are quite common and to continue to use the rock and brick technology speaks of a culture that is not advancing to provide the shelter needs of the people in that culture. Having said all that, nuke 'em till they glow.

CW
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 4:41:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
View Quote


Yea, our culture is about 5% the age of their culture. Deep, man, deep.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 5:25:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
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That was more or less the direction I was going.

Ditto for US vs. Mexico.
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Steyr, again, it's mostly a function of their crap government.  The Shah dictatorship was gearing up Iran to become the Germany of the middle east.  A more or less secular modern industrial power.  He was planning to build nuke reactors to Iran could power its industrialization and send its petroleum for export.  He envisioned a skilled, educated population.  But the Islamic crazies took over and pulled Iran back into the Islamic dead-end nightmare that Bush is trying to free Iraq from.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 7:41:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:03:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
View Quote


[img]http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0312/iran.earthquake.gallery/08.quake.ap.jpg[/img]

A 2,000-year-old medieval fortress, pictured here in September 2003, reportedly was destroyed in the earthquake in Bam, Iran. A relief worker told Iran's official Islamic Republic News Agency that the city's historic quarter had been completely destroyed.

Not quite a mud hut, is it?
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:28:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:05:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch:
Cold Warrior, I mentioned construction techniques, did I not?

SF has had earthquakes in mind for a long time now, while rebuilding the city at various times.

Even at that, the Marina district, built on reclaimed salt marshes, and the Embarcadero multi-decked highway suffered some bad damage and cost some lives in that last big one, as I recall.

The city of Bam, in Iran, the epicenter of this quake, was mostly *2,000* year old mud brick construction, and was somewhat of a historical site as well.

As we have nothing that old to compare to here in the US, it is silly to argue that it is somehow our cultural superiority that keeps us safe during earthquakes.

Look at what happens when big quakes hit Mexico City, for example.

That would explain the difference, I am sure.
It has nothing to do with religion or culture, and everything to do with population density, construction techniques, and age of the city.
View Quote


But all of those things that you mentioned [i]are[/i] based on culture. (Some would say religion plays a part too, but I don't want to get into that).

Why are they living in 2,000 year old mud huts in the 21st century? It's a little more then just a cultural thing. Their culture opposes technological advancement and all the prosperity that it brings. That's why their cities are 2,000 years old - they apparantly haven't advanced much in 2,000 years. What US city is full of buildings even 200 years old? Very few, because our culture prizes technology advancements. We don't just sit on our butts and live in the same old buildings as technology advances. We build them bigger, better, and safer using today's technology. That's why they die by the thousands every time a natural disaster comes around, and we lose, at most, hundreds, tens, or even less. Don't tell me that it's their buildings and not their culture - if their culture was equal to ours, they wouldn't be living in those buildings.

This one is kinda off-topic, but I had to ask:

Originally Posted By Sniper_408:
The US may have the power to change thing's for a short-term, but if the people of a nation don't like the changes, they wont last for long.  What's more, everything the US does in the middle east come back to bite us in the ass;  And you better hope to God the fundies don't off the Musharif(sp?) the leader of Pakistan or the US forces in Afganistan and Iraq will make nice targets for those medium range low yeild nukes Pakistan has.
View Quote


If you thing this way, then what, exactly do you think we should do? Ignoring them doesn't work. If you're arguing that trying to change them won't work, then what's left? Do you think we should kill every last one of them rather then trying to change them first? Or do you think that the west is doomed and we should bend over and kiss our butts goodbye to nations and peoples that couldn't field a decent division of troops?
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:08:06 AM EDT
A great many of the people in Iran don't like the government there or what they do. Most of them were born post-Khomenni and are eager to kick out the mullahs.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:26:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
View Quote


Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Yea, our culture is about 5% the age of their culture. Deep, man, deep.
View Quote


So you agree with me. We have, in what you say is five percent of the time, established a design and construction method able to withstand common environmental events. Something they have failed to accomplish in thousands of years. Seems like evidence of a superior culture to me.

Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch:
Not quite a mud hut, is it?
View Quote


I mis-quoted. In your post you wrote "mud brick construction". That was the point upon which my comment was based. We do not use mud bricks to build our houses or buildings. We also do not build with sticks, piled rocks, or palm fronds.

I hope you don't see this as some kind of "serves them right" attitude. I see the loss of life in Iran as a tragedy. The only thing more tragic than the horrific loss of life is its preventability.

I consider a cultures ability to thrive in the face of natural disaster as a sign of superiority. The tragedy in Iran show that they are lacking in that area.

To simplify:
Loss of life in Iran due to earthquake: tragic.
Loss of life in Iran due to poor engineering: indicative of a culture that should put more emphasis on the value of their people.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:29:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch:
Originally Posted By Delta_3_63:
I think the fact that we don't live in 2,000 year old mud huts speaks volumes about our cultural superiority.
View Quote


[url]http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0312/iran.earthquake.gallery/08.quake.ap.jpg[/url]

A 2,000-year-old medieval fortress, pictured here in September 2003, reportedly was destroyed in the earthquake in Bam, Iran. A relief worker told Iran's official Islamic Republic News Agency that the city's historic quarter had been completely destroyed.

Not quite a mud hut, is it?
View Quote


"A 2,000-year-old medieval fortress,"-- I don't see how a 2000 year old object qualifies as "medieval"....

does anyone know the name of that building?? It doesn't look arab/muslim. Could it have been built by someone else perhaps???
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:51:54 AM EDT
I often wonder why the Japanese and Germans adapted to democracy so well and quickly, especially after their coutries were obliterated by war, but the Middle Eastern folks have such resistence.  The Germans have always been pragmatic and efficient, the Japanese, though deeply rooted in their own ancient culture, were also quick to see the obvious.  Maybe it boils down to religion.  The Arabs hardly progressed in the last century, if it weren't for their oil they'd be still riding on camels and living in mud huts.  What industry and manufacturing capabilities do they have other than oil?
With each hybrid and electric powered car rolling off the assembly line, their doom is that much closer at hand.  Once their oil runs out or when we are not so dependent on it, THAT's when they'll really raise a stink.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:52:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:58:44 AM EDT
The latest headline "...fear the toll could reach 40,000"

There are many cultural differences that are a factor, however some of our low casualty numbers are due to circumstance (God smiling on us) [;D]

For example, the Oakland Cypress Structure alone could have killed thousands had it happened during a commute, instead of at the beginning of a world series game. I've driven it many times, and I [i]vividly[/i] remember my feelings of discomfort at being inside that thing.

The recent quake also was in a relatively sparsely populated area. Yes, it could be worse.

However, if you do a side by side comparison of a given strength quake in a major downtown area, local building practices as dictated by culture/government will show a telling difference between us. For example, in Egypt it is common practice to add stories to a building not designed for the added weight and a collapse due to structural failure is not uncommon, let alone in a quake.

Yes we are smarter and have our priorities mostly in order, but we shouldn't kid ourselves about how good things are.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 6:16:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 7:04:18 PM EDT
Slightly off topic, some observations seem equally inexplicable.
Of the ancient powers and cultures that invented/discovered gun powder, printing press, compas and other crucial developments that shaped the world, few of their decendents are having the impact on the world they once did.
What happened?  China is another topic altogether, the ancient and sleeping dragon will rise again to trouble the unhappy world.  Seems to me these old cultures ran out of steam and their engery was spent long ago, and those ready to embrace science and progress have dominated the world ever since, the Arabs had a long and glorious past but they, like the Mongols, would have only that to savor except for their oild rich land, and our insatiable apettite for oil to give them the impression they're indispensable.  What have they done to benefit mankind lately?  The invention of suicide bombers is all I can think of.
Like a poor, uneducated punk that newly inherited a large sum of money, their wealth does not veil the underlying filth and uncouth ambitions to avenge old grudges long past, and spread death and oppresion under an evil banner of Allah.
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