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Posted: 1/30/2011 10:03:50 PM EDT


I say he won and America lost. In terms of 100's of billions of dollars in new government agencies that were created.
Pensions that will be paid over the next 20 years, medical insurance for retires of federal jobs created.

All at tax payers expense.


He won , we lost
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:07:32 PM EDT
I don't live in a cave.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:09:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Seraph:
I don't live in a cave.


You beat me. I had it all typed out too...Well played.

"I still live in a house while he is chilling in a cave. He can call that a victory if he likes."
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:09:55 PM EDT
We have the government the majority of Americans voted for. It's been moving this way since long before Osama came along.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:12:53 PM EDT
I've thought pretty much from the beginning he got the response he was looking for, I never bought the idea that he was dismayed by our course of action. The only purpose of such an act is to provoke a response.

I don't think he actually won anything though, at least not yet, other than managing to elude the US for ten years, something I didn't believe was possible.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:13:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Seraph:
I don't live in a cave.


It doesn't matter if he's dead right now or lives in a cave. Or in a hotel in Pakistan , he changed our government in how it deals with it's own citizens.
Grew it by billions of dollars.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:14:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 10:14:53 PM EDT by retgarr]
What with all these bullshit defeatist "we lost" threads lately?

Grow a fucking spine, get out there, and start winning already!
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:14:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By K2QB3:
I've thought pretty much from the beginning he got the response he was looking for, I never bought the idea that he was dismayed by our course of action. The only purpose of such an act is to provoke a response.

I don't think he actually won anything though, at least not yet, other than managing to elude the US for ten years, something I didn't believe was possible.


TSA
Dept of homeland security

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:16:22 PM EDT
Bin Laden and his minions are hiding under a rock and moving from place to place. They can't traing out in the open because we bomb their camps, they have completely had to move underground and they have no had a single terrorist attack on us.

Some think he is dead and Al-qaeda not wanting to give the USA a propaganda victory just haven't said anything. The kind of shape he was in the final videos he did, indicates he was in very bad shape.


Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:16:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By K2QB3:
I've thought pretty much from the beginning he got the response he was looking for, I never bought the idea that he was dismayed by our course of action. The only purpose of such an act is to provoke a response.

I don't think he actually won anything though, at least not yet, other than managing to elude the US for ten years, something I didn't believe was possible.


TSA
Dept of homeland security


You think that was his goal? To inconvenience us for shits and giggles? It's Osama bin Laden, not Snidely Whiplash!
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:18:32 PM EDT
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.
Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:19:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Bin Laden and his minions are hiding under a rock and moving from place to place. They can't traing out in the open because we bomb their camps, they have completely had to move underground and they have no had a single terrorist attack on us.

Some think he is dead and Al-qaeda not wanting to give the USA a propaganda victory just haven't said anything. The kind of shape he was in the final videos he did, indicates he was in very bad shape.




He's most likely dead.
But look at the things created in our country because of him.
One man cost a country most likely a trillion dollars.

How much do you think all these agencies will cost in the next 20 years.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:20:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.
Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.


Did I mention a war anywhere.

Get off the soap box.

It's what changed here.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:20:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By Seraph:
I don't live in a cave.


It doesn't matter if he's dead right now or lives in a cave. Or in a hotel in Pakistan , he changed our government in how it deals with it's own citizens.
Grew it by billions of dollars.

Ah, so you're saying he's a Democrat.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:23:18 PM EDT
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:25:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 10:28:11 PM EDT by retgarr]

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11


Yep, and he doesn't give a shit because those were never his goals.


Tell me something, did the Germans win WWI?
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:27:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11



So how does that equate to an OBL victory?

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:28:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By retgarr:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11


Yep, and he doesn't give a shit because those were never his goals.



But do you? Did he change America for the worse?

If he did then terrorism wins.

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:29:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 10:33:57 PM EDT by JDJR]
This war has been going on for 1500 years and will probably last another 1500. There is no winning or losing short of kill em all and give up everything we are about.

Armies are trivial for us, hard to defeat ideology.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:32:39 PM EDT
Wars are not won or lost in a single battle. If you look at it as long war over years the OP has a good point. We are spending billions we do not have as a direct response to the actions of 911 and other attacks. We are slowly being changed and going broke partially due to his actions and the actions of other muslim extremists.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:39:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By retgarr:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11


Yep, and he doesn't give a shit because those were never his goals.



But do you? Did he change America for the worse?

If he did then terrorism wins.



that might be the worst piece of flawed logic I've read in a long time.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:43:43 PM EDT
It's not over yet. Shit idiot.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:44:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 10:47:11 PM EDT by TheTracker]
Originally Posted By Ptlm724:
Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By retgarr:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Those agencies were created in response to 9/11


Yep, and he doesn't give a shit because those were never his goals.



But do you? Did he change America for the worse?

If he did then terrorism wins.



that might be the worst piece of flawed logic I've read in a long time.



I'm all ears

explain

Name one thing I posted that is incorrect.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:45:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By imagetcha:
It's not over yet. Shit idiot.


Are you dense?

It's not the war .



Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:50:33 PM EDT
OP this is an ugly topic, I understand the point your trying to make, that it's cost us a lot more than it's cost them and the long term effects, but there's a bunch of our front line warriors on this board, who've sacrificed most, and it's perfectly understandable that they'd take it uglier than you intend.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:54:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.
Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.


Did I mention a war anywhere.

Get off the soap box.

It's what changed here.


Uh, the billions of dollars wouldn't be an issue if thare was no war or terrorism or 9/11 attack.
Is anything i said untrue or in any way self righteous?
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:00:28 PM EDT
RIF.
I thought I saw OBama
Clearly says Osama
Sometimes the line is blurry

FUBO
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:04:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 11:05:07 PM EDT by TheTracker]
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.


Did I mention a war anywhere.

Get off the soap box.

It's what changed here.


Uh, the billions of dollars wouldn't be an issue if thare was no war or terrorism or 9/11 attack.
Is anything i said untrue or in any way self righteous?



That's why I'm not talking about the two wars.

You seemed to imply that I'm equating the wars and the
sacrifices made by our soldiers in this topic.


I'm saying how our government changed here in how it deals with us.


Not them. You don't see a difference between the two topics?

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:07:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.
Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.


Did I mention a war anywhere.

Get off the soap box.

It's what changed here.

What you're saying is wrong.

OBL could care fucking less about new agencies cropped up or any of that shit. He could care less how much America is spending. The whole point for a war was so he could "defeat" another super power. If we left Afghanistan without achieving anything it will be seen as a victory for Al-Qaeda.

Nothing about what's going on here is making Al-Qaeda think they are winning, they care about what's going on in Afghanistan and the rest of the ME.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:11:40 PM EDT
I consider it a point of national pride to find him; something we certainly should have put more effort into.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:13:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By -GunNutJuell-:
Tell the families of loved ones who died on 9/11 That.
People too often lose sight of the bigger picture, and what would have transpired had we not invaded iraq and afghanistan.
I'm not about to tel the families of the 77 men we lost on my deployment that it was for nothing.
Get behind us or get in front of us is a nice cliche, but maybe a better term would be support the fight or fuck off and die.
But I realize nowadays people forget there is even a war or two going on. Nobody really gives a fuck if they aren't directly affected.
On second thought, maybe he did win.


Did I mention a war anywhere.

Get off the soap box.

It's what changed here.

What you're saying is wrong.

OBL could care fucking less about new agencies cropped up or any of that shit. He could care less how much America is spending. The whole point for a war was so he could "defeat" another super power. If we left Afghanistan without achieving anything it will be seen as a victory for Al-Qaeda.

Nothing about what's going on here is making Al-Qaeda think they are winning, they care about what's going on in Afghanistan and the rest of the ME.




Does it matter what they think some where in a cave right now.

Did he change our country and our government here whether it was intentional or as a result of...




Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:18:03 PM EDT
Yes he changed the way we live. It may not have been his intention but he and other like him did make the US a different place.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:20:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mikebiker:
Yes he changed the way we live. It may not have been his intention but he and other like him did make the US a different place.

Not really
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:27:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 11:28:26 PM EDT by JDJR]
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Mikebiker:
Yes he changed the way we live. It may not have been his intention but he and other like him did make the US a different place.

Not really


TSA pedophile voyeurism? Patting down little blue haired old ladies? I'd say so just a little bit though - nothing to be alarmed about.

But that's to be expected when on war footing. I would not wanted German heritage in WW2 either.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 11:31:27 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By JDJR:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Mikebiker:
Yes he changed the way we live. It may not have been his intention but he and other like him did make the US a different place.

Not really


TSA pedophile voyeurism? Patting down little blue haired old ladies? I'd say so just a little bit though - nothing to be alarmed about.

But that's to be expected when on war footing. I would not wanted German heritage in WW2 either.

Do you get searched every time you leave your house and start your car and goto work in the morning? Do you get searched when you enter a building?

It seems the only visible place where you actually see the "war on terrorism" get searched for weapons is when you are going to fly in an Airplane. And even though I am only 29 years old, I know they've been searching and using metal detectors in Airports since before my time, so it's not something brand new.

99.9% of your life is spent not being bullied or stripped search by "the man" and you're going about doing your own thing.

Meh, I guess people just need something to bitch about.

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:35:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Meh, I guess people just need something to bitch about.



Pretty much just playing devil advocate a bit (and I fly a lot) LV to reno office every 2nd week.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:38:48 PM EDT
OBL is no more than a useful idiot. The MB is in charge. For now anyway.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:21:07 AM EDT
We have a moslem in the White House. So, I wouldn't call that winning...
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:29:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 3:50:12 AM EDT by SHRIKERAAR]
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:42:35 AM EDT
AQ has not met their strategic objectives. But they are getting closer in states like Egypt.

Unless you've met your objectives, you haven't "won"
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:49:34 AM EDT
Osama bin Laden long ago stated that the best way to defeat the United States was to destroy the economy.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:55:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 4:04:37 AM EDT by Normal_Guy]
Osama (if he actually exists) didn't beat us - we beat ourselves by sinking to that level. Sinking into a fascist police state that is.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:02:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
To "win" OBL would have had to achieve some of his goals.

Has America, and the west, pulled western forces and civilans out of the ME, especially Saudi Arabia?
Have Islamic states been established in secular Arab countries?
Is there any progress towards a unified middle-eastern Arab caliphate?
Is the Taliban ruling a Central Asian Caliphate that includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir and the Muslim former Soviet 'stans?
Is western cultural influence on the decline in the Muslim world?

I don't recall OBL being an advocate for the TSA and increased Federal pensions.


Someone knows what he's talking about!

By those (OBL's own) measures, he's failed or "broke even" at best.

Why broke even? Because he knew that - just like the Afghanis did with the Russians - if they just stayed strong long enough, they could out-wait us. We're out of money and we'll have to withdraw soon enough. So we've spent billions while OBL and his crew have spent millions, and the threat is still there. Diminished but still there.

Then there's the untold billions/trillions spent on new bureaucracy and "safety measures"...
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:14:37 AM EDT


"We will not allow this enemy to win the war by changing our way of life or restricting our freedoms." - George W. Bush


They have won, according to Bush's definition of winning.

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:17:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 4:18:00 AM EDT by pdg45acp]
We are still here and still doing our thing, that is not what he (Osama) wanted.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:25:23 AM EDT
He's probably dead.

That said, the America we knew prior to 9/11 is dead too. Homeland Security, evesdropping by the Fed, TSA sticking their hands down your pants to touch your junk. From America the land of the free and the home of the brave to America the land of the sheeple.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:29:41 AM EDT
What Osama Bin Laden accomplished is that he and his band of insurgents were able to challenge the biggest baddest military on earth.

He will not beat the military on the battlefield, instead he will beat us with a thousand paper cuts.

A cheap IED takes out a 1 million dollar MRAP. If he blows up 6 Mraps a month, that quickly adds up.

Throw in some harrasment In direct fire, which we automatically use technology which costs money to counter the threat and the damage they inflict also costs money.

Until we figure out what the center of gravity is for the Insurgents, we will always have a hard time with them.

Max
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:37:21 AM EDT
I say he lost. He wanted the US out of the mideast and we are all over it and then some. He got the opposite of what he was wanting. He thought we would stay home, we didn't we fent!!!
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:38:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxell27:
What Osama Bin Laden accomplished is that he and his band of insurgents were able to challenge the biggest baddest military on earth.

He will not beat the military on the battlefield, instead he will beat us with a thousand paper cuts.

A cheap IED takes out a 1 million dollar MRAP. If he blows up 6 Mraps a month, that quickly adds up.

Throw in some harrasment In direct fire, which we automatically use technology which costs money to counter the threat and the damage they inflict also costs money.

Until we figure out what the center of gravity is for the Insurgents, we will always have a hard time with them.

Max

As long as they hate us more than they love their children
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:38:33 AM EDT
He won life in seclusion. Probably with sex slaves (little dancing boys) of his choosing. But still in seclusion (cave).
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