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Posted: 4/14/2010 10:39:54 AM EDT
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Below is my response to Optics Planet regarding my attempt to order a Burris 2-7 scope, a few deer paper targets and a sun shade for one of my Nikon scopes. DO NOT ever try to purchase anything from them online if you are deployed or on a business trip out of the states. They will not believe you are not trying to ship dangerous contraband out of country.

Service men if you deployed never try to order from them unless you are on government computers, which of course we know is against policy. They will expect you to sign and return export paperwork even if you are shipping to your residence inside the US.

BEWARE the low powered scopes and sinister paper deer targets they are a risk to national security.


–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––

Pierre Black

Risk Management Team

[email protected]

US Toll-Free Phone:  (800) 504-5897

Intl. Calls: (847) 513-6201

Fax: (847) 919-3043

http://www.OpticsPlanet.com



Mr Pierre Black,

There are a couple ideals and principles many people in our country, the United States of America, still live and raise their children by, those are honor and integrity.  Sir you and Optics Planets have insulted both in me.

I ordered items online to be shipped to my residence in Virginia. I am a US citizen using a US issued credit card, US billing and US ship to addresses. Despite all this I received an email requesting additional questions be answered.  I complied with the request to answer questions regarding the who, final destination and use of the items in my order, the Burris 2-7 scope, being the item in question. I did this, both by email and over the phone (I have a very obvious American accent).  You then send an Export Compliance Certification (EAR) form for me to sign and return though it is not required for purchases destined within the United States.

Since being deployed in Iraq for almost a year now, I have made dozens of online purchases and spent thousands of dollars on items shipped to my residence. These items range from firearm optics and ammunition to electronics and so forth. Optics Planet and your department are the first to require such extreme measures and inconveniences for an online purchase shipped to a residence within the continental United States.

I have completed and attached your EAR form to this email.

Sir I wish you to immediately cancel my order (Order 1419215 Reference 952662 ) and delete any account information which may be on Optics Planet’s and or affiliate company’s computer systems.

While you only lost the sale of a $170 scope and some paper deer targets on this order. You have earned a regular spot in many a chow hall and fire side hunting story sessions of how I find myself unable to recommend your company to anyone. Especially, to those deployed and defending our country.

Regrettably,

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 10:49:12 AM EDT
Fuck 'em.

They can suck my balls.

Not one more order from them, and I've bought a lot of stuff from them in the past.

No more.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 10:50:08 AM EDT
How would they know your deployed?

I could be anywhere in the world, but when I put my SHIP TO address and CC number it would be a US residence.

Doesnt make sense unless im missing something.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 10:56:17 AM EDT
Their system detected the IP address of the computer I was on was out of country. So since they detect my order was from an out of country IP address they made me jump through fire hoops.

Hence why I am warning anybody that is deployed.

They disregarded the US credit card, billing, shipping address, and my true American accent when I called them.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 10:58:53 AM EDT
Sadly I remember a similar thread like this in the past.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 10:59:48 AM EDT
Buy it elsewhere!
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:03:18 AM EDT
Quoted:
Their system detected the IP address of the computer I was on was out of country. So since they detect my order was from an out of country IP address they made me jump through fire hoops.

Hence why I am warning anybody that is deployed.

They disregarded the US credit card, billing, shipping address, and my true American accent when I called them.


. As long as the SHIPPING address is US it shouldnt matter.

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:05:45 AM EDT
Quoted:

(snipped your post)



The OP is incorrect.  

While I was deployed to Afghanistan, I ordered and had delivered to my home a Burris TAC30 rifle scope.  The company was fully aware that I was deployed and worked with me quite a bit to complete the sale.  

I signed the export paperwork which is not needed because you are currently deployed, but is required for your acknowledgement that certain optical products are subject to export restrictions.  So, while I had the rifle scope shipped to my CONUS address, I had to acknowledge that it is subject to export restrictions in the event I ever had an inkling to send it abroad.

Your own experience is obviously different, but IMO does not warrant the letter you wrote.

I find Optics Planet a great company to order from and continue to do so at the exclusion of all others.

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:08:52 AM EDT
I'm not defending their actions or commenting on whether they are right or wrong however...

Many firearms related products, especially optics, are ITAR and/or export controlled.  The regulations associated with this get more complicated and convoluted every year.  The penalty for violating these regs is severe.  Some may consider it too much risk without appropriate paperwork.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:09:15 AM EDT
When I got my M3x light I made the mistake of buying from them. Never again! Paid for M3x and additional end cap that were 'in stock', then after I paid they said the tail cap was no longer in stock but they would happily charge me for shipping TWICE to ship me the M3x first and later the tail cap. After trading emails with some ass hat CS rep for a few weeksI finally got a manager ended up giving me a discount and 'free' shipping once the end cap was restocked.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:10:45 AM EDT
I ordered from them at least 6 times last year while in Iraq, and had the items sent to my home.

If this is true, then it must be a new policy.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:11:05 AM EDT
Quoted:
I find Optics Planet a great company to order from and continue to do so at the exclusion of all others.



This.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:11:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:12:20 AM EDT
Why in the hell would you order form them in the first place? Optics Planet is always right at or above MSRP
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:14:05 AM EDT
ITAR, I'd bet money on it.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:17:17 AM EDT
I am glad you had a better experience than I did. I still feel it was unreasonable and BS to have to sign a statement not to export form when there was no reasonable indication the items would be shipped out of country. Especially once I answered their questions and spoke to them on the phone.

Signing that form would do nothing to prevent someone from shipping overseas if they wanted.

Not everyone deployed will have access to a scanner in order to send them back the signed form.

Call me guilty of being offended when I am treated like the bad guy.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:17:25 AM EDT
new member, low post count and a controversial topic...



i'm just saying...
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:22:27 AM EDT
Quoted:
I am glad you had a better experience than I did. I still feel it was unreasonable and BS to have to sign a statement not to export form when there was no reasonable indication the items would be shipped out of country. Especially once I answered their questions and spoke to them on the phone.

Signing that form would do nothing to prevent someone from shipping overseas if they wanted.

Not everyone deployed will have access to a scanner in order to send them back the signed form.

Call me guilty of being offended when I am treated like the bad guy.


1.  Don't get your panties in a wad.  Everybody has to sign export control forms for items that fall under export control laws.

2.  They don't need a "reasonable indication" that you are going to ship the item anywhere.  The form merely makes you aware that the item is subject to export controls.

3.  The form doesn't prevent anybody from shipping anything anymore than current laws prevent anybody from committing murder.  However, since you've been made aware of the applicable regulation, any violation would make prosecution easier for the gov't and more costly for you.

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:23:13 AM EDT
Meh, they dicked me over on my first order from them.



I will not be ordering from Optics Planet again.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:23:25 AM EDT
Quoted:
I am glad you had a better experience than I did. I still feel it was unreasonable and BS to have to sign a statement not to export form when there was no reasonable indication the items would be shipped out of country. Especially once I answered their questions and spoke to them on the phone.

Signing that form would do nothing to prevent someone from shipping overseas if they wanted.

Not everyone deployed will have access to a scanner in order to send them back the signed form.

Call me guilty of being offended when I am treated like the bad guy.


You're right.  But it does cover their ass (Optics Planet) if someone does.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:27:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:31:21 AM EDT
I think the OP's point is that he was asking to have the items shipped to his home address within the United States.  It should not matter where he was sitting when he placed the order.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:33:13 AM EDT
Optics Planet has the worst customer service in the business. THIS IS NOTHING NEW.  Keep spreading the word and kick em where it hurts the most: their greedy wallets.  Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
 
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:35:29 AM EDT
OK. Points taken

They are boxer not panties and they are loosening up. Everyone deserves to vent once in a while. :-)

Just seemed like BS that other well established vendors had no issues shipping to my residence under the same circumstances.

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:36:06 AM EDT
Quoted:
I think the OP's point is that he was asking to have the items shipped to his home address within the United States.  It should not matter where he was sitting when he placed the order.


You will notice that the OP did not include any communication from Optics Planet, so we only have 1 side of this story.  He merely railed against what he thinks is their corporate policy, when I'm more inclined to believe that he misunderstood their request for him to sign the form.

As a couple posters (including me) in this thread have pointed out, Optics Planet does not restrict CONUS shipments of items ordered by service members serving abroad.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:37:04 AM EDT
Quoted:
I think the OP's point is that he was asking to have the items shipped to his home address within the United States.  It should not matter where he was sitting when he placed the order.


You are exactly right.

Thank you.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:38:41 AM EDT




Quoted:

ITAR, I'd bet money on it.




It's not just that, or UN protocols that some countries have signed. We have a new administration with new people who, compared to the last administration, don't know what the hell they're doing. My last export license (submitted 1DEC09) took almost 4 months to get along with almost 20 emails and 6 phone calls. All because their new leaders don't understand their own rules. Many companies don't want to export scopes, and it's not just the requirements that the US puts on it. The importing countries usually have a shit load of requirements as well. It's not fun any more.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:40:56 AM EDT




Quoted:

Optics Planet has the worst customer service in the business. THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Keep spreading the word and kick em where it hurts the most: their greedy wallets. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
For one thing, if you purchase a Beamshot laser from them, they remove the mount that the manufacturer includes with the laser.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:44:20 AM EDT
Same thing happened to me. I was in Israel and asked to have a laser shipped to my home in the US, we went back and forth about it and in the end they wouldn't sell to me.

FUCK OPTICS PLANET

And fuck Obama.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 11:55:29 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think the OP's point is that he was asking to have the items shipped to his home address within the United States.  It should not matter where he was sitting when he placed the order.


You will notice that the OP did not include any communication from Optics Planet, so we only have 1 side of this story.  He merely railed against what he thinks is their corporate policy, when I'm more inclined to believe that he misunderstood their request for him to sign the form.

As a couple posters (including me) in this thread have pointed out, Optics Planet does not restrict CONUS shipments of items ordered by service members serving abroad.


Unfortunately they did restrict shipment to a CONUS address. They did so based solely on  the location of the computer from which I placed the order not my billing or shipping address.

This email thread starts with the newest and ends with the oldest.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––-
Hello,



Thank you for your prompt response. The Burris 2-7x35mm FullField II Riflescope is government regulated and due to geographical location when placing the order our internal system triggered a hold for our compliance team to review. We have not taken these actions regarding your order based on our company’s policy, but based on those of the United States Government.  We do not make the law, but we are obliged to comply with it.  



While we proudly support the Members of the US Military deployed around the world and believe that it is our unique privilege to service their needs, we must fully comply with the United States Export Control Laws and Regulations. Under these Laws and Regulations we are obligated to treat any shipment to an APO/FPO that is physically located outside of the United States as an export, regardless of your military service status, rank, etc.  



We will not be able to ship you any products which are included on the United States Munitions List (USML) in accordance with the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations Part 120-130 or the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) without a license.  And that is why we are requesting the EAR Compliance Certification to be signed by you stating that you understand these regulations even though you are shipping domestically.



We strongly regret the inconvenience that thus may have caused you and encourage you to contact your US Representative if you feel that these Laws need to be modified in order to accommodate the unique circumstances of US Military personnel deployed overseas. You can visit the United States House of Representatives official website to write to your Representative.



Export control laws and regulations are complex.  Any summaries of such laws and regulations provided by OpticsPlanet, Inc. herein are not comprehensive and are not to be taken as legal advice or counseling.



Best regards,



Pierre Black

Risk Management Team

[email protected]

US Toll-Free Phone:  (800) 504-5897

Intl. Calls: (847) 513-6201

Fax: (847) 919-3043

http://www.OpticsPlanet.com


––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

From:  
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:21 AM
To: RM-RM
Cc: Pierre Black;
Subject: RE: Your OpticsPlanet.com Order 1419215 Reference 952662 On Hold -Please Respond (OP:3060171)
Importance: High



I am not trying to be difficult but please inform me what on this order is restricted for delivery to Virginia? If I was ordering night vision or lasers or anything of that sort I might understand a little better, however I am failing to see why this is such a difficult process. Paper deer targets and a low powered scope does not seem to raise any red flags for nation security or export rules. NOTHING IS BEING EXPORTED, however you did import those items from foreign countries.



I have ordered holographic sights, ammo, etc since being deployed in Iraq and had them delivered to my residence in Virginia and never had to jump through one hoop in order to do so.



I understand caution but believe your policies are way over board on this one. An US citizen orders a couple common ordinary items with an US issued credit card and wants it sent to an US residence. If I was on a business trip in Germany instead of serving our country in Iraq would I still be jumping through these hoops?



Frustrated




––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

From: OpticsPlanet Risk Management [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tue 4/13/2010 9:02 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Your OpticsPlanet.com Order 1419215 Reference 952662 On Hold -Please Respond (OP:3060171)

Hello ,



Thank you for your email.  We have received the answers to the questions that we have asked in our previous email.  Before we can process your order, we will need a signed and completed EAR Compliance Certification.  I will be sending you a separate email explaining the EAR Compliance Certification and a link to where it can be found.  Once we have received the EAR Compliance Certification, your order will be sent to our Order Processing Team to be processed.  Our Order Processing Team may request information to verify your payment method.  I do apologize for the inconvenience of this procedure, but we must ensure that we are performing the proper due diligence for restricted/regulated items and that we are complying with the rules and regulations of the U.S. Government regarding export control.  If you have any additional questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to ask.



Export control laws and regulations are complex.  Any summaries of such laws and regulations provided by OpticsPlanet, Inc. herein are not comprehensive and are not to be taken as legal advice or counseling.



Best regards,



Pierre Black

Risk Management Team

[email protected]

US Toll-Free Phone:  (800) 504-5897

Intl. Calls: (847) 513-6201

Fax: (847) 919-3043

http://www.OpticsPlanet.com

Link Posted: 4/14/2010 12:09:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 12:42:38 PM EDT
I can tell you one thing there not above lieing I ordered a 3x vortexs and scope .They sent me email that it was sold out becouse it was one of there best sellers. I talk to the Scott the vortexs guy and he tells me there not out for sale till next month
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 12:49:22 PM EDT
After reading the compliance form, I'm not sure what the big deal is.  The form simply notifies you that this item is export restricted under ITAR.  Your signature verifies that you understand this.  They may actually be doing you a favor.  Here's an example:  You are deployed and want to purchase a scope.  The scope you want is ITAR restricted, so the company cannot ship it to you.  You figure, "OK, I'll have it shipped to my US address and have my wife ship it to me".  Doing this would put you and your wife (or whomever shipped it to you) in violation of ITAR and subject to all the penalties that come along with it.  ITAR applies to individuals also, not just companies.

I'm not implying this was your intent, but I don't doubt this exact situation has happened.  It may be an innocent error due to lack of knowledge associated with export law.  The government does not care and will prosecute.  

They are providing you fair warning.  Considering the average citizen doesn't know anything about ITAR, it's probably a much needed warning.  Despite what you may think, it appears to me that they are looking out for your interests as well as their own.
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 12:53:24 PM EDT
i have had nothing but problems with op and will never deal with them again
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 1:18:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2010 1:20:32 PM EDT
Quoted:
ITAR, I'd bet money on it.


this. welcome to our shitty world !
Link Posted: 4/17/2010 7:21:59 PM EDT
i had the same issues, ordered a scope to my house when i was in afghanistan, they didnt want to ship it, but after 3 phone calls and a few emails it got pushed through
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