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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:16:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:11:17 AM EDT by senorFrog]
To get away from all the political talk, what's your opinon re bull-pup assault rifles...

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as19-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:17:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:19:17 AM EDT by w4klr]
I love the bullpup concept, especially with the execution of it in the Steyr Aug. It's a great way to keep barrel length to improve bullet performance, without sacrificing mobility with the weapon.

Having a 20" barrel on a bullpup platform will give the round higher velocity and will improve terminal ballistics at your target, while keeping the weapon in an M4ish size, even smaller.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:20:35 AM EDT
Bullpup rifles allow you to have a shorter rifle with a full length barrel. Some have been cited (I never handled one) for having poor reloading ergonomics and bad triggers, but if Bushmaster ever made their rifle a little less corny I would buy one.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:22:10 AM EDT
I agree about the M17S or whatever it is that BM sells. It looks wayy too corny for me to purchase one.

While firing a Steyr Aug from a generous range friend, I found it's ergonomics and trigger to be pleasing. Just my take on it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:22:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By w4klr:
I love the bullpup concept, especially with the execution of it in the Steyr Aug. It's a great way to keep barrel length to improve bullet performance, without sacrificing mobility with the weapon.

Having a 20" barrel on a bullpup platform will give the round higher velocity and will improve terminal ballistics at your target, while keeping the weapon in an M4ish size, even smaller.

with the exception of the FN 2000, bullpup weapons are shitty for military service what happens when you are faced with a MOUT situation and you have to use the weapon with the off hand. I will tell you what happens you get a face full of brass that burns a hole in your cheek.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:23:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:25:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:26:16 AM EDT by w4klr]
Having the right tool for the right job makes everything easier.

ETA: I love the concept, not necessarily the design!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:25:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:26:33 AM EDT
Bullpup-style weapons hold no appeal to me.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:29:09 AM EDT
I understand the concept of why they are a good thing.


But I have never found a bull pup design that I liked (and yes, I've fired many).
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:30:48 AM EDT
i tell you what, it's kinda scary hearing that bolt slamming back and forth right next to your face as opposed to it being in front! loading's not that bad even for a bullpup ak. just takes a little practice and getting used to it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:31:16 AM EDT
fs2000, already got mine preorderd. But its gonna come in a goofy color
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:33:46 AM EDT
I am seriously thinking of getting the FS 2000 when it comes out. One of my concerns is, what happens if there is a kaboom? It seems like you could easily sustain severe facial injury in such a case, as opposed to only extremities.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:34:45 AM EDT
Seems to me if properly designed they would be a good tool for certain situations. Don't think they are a unviersal can opener though.

For short range and confined spaces, they would probably be a better options than what we use. I suspect if standard rifles with a simular barrel length would be easer to control for accuracy though. Likewise, in this world of optics, the reduced sighting plain would not be as big of hinderance.

In theory a kaboom would hurt more (especially if ammo was sabatoged (which is a good psycological tactic).

I would enjoy having one.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:34:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
I am seriously thinking of getting the FS 2000 when it comes out. One of my concerns is, what happens if there is a kaboom? It seems like you could easily sustain severe facial injury in such a case, as opposed to only extremities.



Wear a football helmet at the range. I do. It also keeps me from licking my grape flavored windows.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:50:12 AM EDT
I'm on record as loving the things. The slower mag reload isn't much of a problem when you're talking about an entire squad shooting. The off-hand issue is a slight catch, but there is a method of shooting around a 'wrong' corner involving leaning 'sideways'. The Brits seem to have managed to take Basra and Um Qasr with their bullpups, some of that was heavy fighting. Yes, you expose more of yourself, but it's considered an acceptable compromise when compared to all the other benefits. Point of balance is usually directly above the pistol grip, as opposed to the nose-heavy attitude of conventional rifles. 22" barrell in a weapon shorter than an M-4 carbine.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:52:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:55:33 AM EDT by WildBoar]
ergonomcally retarded

I have shot the
SA-80
Aug
FMAS
M17

Didnt like any of them. I think you have to fiddle around too much to change mags and operate the weapon in general.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:02:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
fs2000, already got mine preorderd. But its gonna come in a goofy color



That's what they make spray paint for brother!
~Dg84
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:05:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 7:06:07 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:54:47 AM EDT
Bullpups are the wave of the future. In 100 years I bet 90% of the worlds militaries use them.

Honestly how common is shooting "off hand" anyway? If its SUCH a problem put your SAW gunner out there on the left. Besides newer designs from FN, P90 and F2000, have ejection systems that put the casings under the gun anyway.

Unbalanced is a crock. With all the optics, lights and lasers on everyone ninja guns on here, none of them are balanced any worse than a bullpup is.

Hand to hand? SHOOT the fool! This isn't a bayonet charge, run out of ammo reload or switch to side arm. If your in hand to hand and do not have anymore rounds your in a world of hurt besides hanving a shorter weapon to use as a spear.

Bullpup with a tristacked or quadstacked mag (50-60 rounds per mag) and a HBAR type barrel. Would elminate need for a SAW.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:58:57 AM EDT
If you're using the sights, isn't your head right there at the chamber?

Seems like a potentially bad situation to me.

What about sighting distance as well - wouldn't it have a very short sight radius?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:05:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:
If you're using the sights, isn't your head right there at the chamber?

Seems like a potentially bad situation to me.

What about sighting distance as well - wouldn't it have a very short sight radius?



You are screwed either way if you gun goes kaboom, so relax and don't worry about it.

Most modern firearms can mount good optics as primary sights, sight radius not an issue IMO.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:07:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Bullpups are the wave of the future. In 100 years I bet 90% of the worlds militaries use them..




100 years, eh? Won't we have phasers by then?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:11:00 AM EDT by Manic_Moran]
In fairness, the British do seem to have a tradition of getting one or two good bayonet charges in in every war. The current goings-on in Iraq appear to be no different. And they still won. "It's not size that counts, it's how you use it!"

When was the last US Army or USMC bayonet charge, out of interest?

NTM
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:12:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Bullpup-style weapons hold no appeal to me.


x 10,000
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:13:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
fs2000, already got mine preorderd. But its gonna come in a goofy color



Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:15:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Bullpup-style weapons hold no appeal to me.


x 10,000



/10,001) +1


Bullpups are cool, I would love to have a compact rifle with a full length barrel.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:18:05 AM EDT
I'm a southpaw.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:20:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I'm a southpaw.



Some bullpups allow you to switch the ejection port side from left to right.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:28:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:31:29 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Where is that opinion from the Aussie Sargeant about his country's severe problems with the Steyr AUG?

I used to have it bookmarked for discussions such as this.

Eric The(GooglingHisTailOff)Hun



Aussies made their own AUGs to a much lower standard than Austria.

AUGs can be fired from the offhand, you just can't put your face over or near the ejection port. A little unerving but it can be done if needed.

AUG mag changes can be done just as fast as more rifles and faster than an AK if you know the proper way.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:35:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
fs2000, already got mine preorderd. But its gonna come in a goofy color



www.impactguns.com/store/media/fn_f2000.jpg



Hey, its a super soaker!

-Storm
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:49:33 AM EDT

Hey, its a super soaker!


That is exactly what I was thinking...it looks SOOOO bulky. It must be 5" wide.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:54:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
Bullpup-style weapons hold no appeal to me.



Ditto.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:56:28 AM EDT
cool concept, but not great for lefties. The Kb might be a problem too.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:11:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 10:12:43 AM EDT by Mauser101]

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I'm a southpaw.



Some bullpups allow you to switch the ejection port side from left to right.




Hell, get the FS2000 then. You get the good parts of a bullpup (short overall length w/ decent length barrel) and you get forward ejecting so you don't have to worry about how you hold it.

Hell, since it's a delayed eject anyway I'm betting the brass has cooled off a considerable amount before it comes out.

KBs are a problem nomatter if you're using a bullpup or a traditional rifle. It doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:16:49 AM EDT
Too short a sight radius.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:22:47 AM EDT
Iwant a FS2000
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:26:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Too short a sight radius.



What's the sight radius on an AK?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:27:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 12:33:02 PM EDT by bloodmoon]

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Bullpups are the wave of the future. In 100 years I bet 90% of the worlds militaries use them.

Honestly how common is shooting "off hand" anyway? If its SUCH a problem put your SAW gunner out there on the left. Besides newer designs from FN, P90 and F2000, have ejection systems that put the casings under the gun anyway.

Unbalanced is a crock. With all the optics, lights and lasers on everyone ninja guns on here, none of them are balanced any worse than a bullpup is.

Hand to hand? SHOOT the fool! This isn't a bayonet charge, run out of ammo reload or switch to side arm. If your in hand to hand and do not have anymore rounds your in a world of hurt besides hanving a shorter weapon to use as a spear.

Bullpup with a tristacked or quadstacked mag (50-60 rounds per mag) and a HBAR type barrel. Would elminate need for a SAW.

what if your saw gunner is laying in a pile of his own intestines screaming for his mother because a grenade blew him to shit and his saw looks like a slinky it is alwaysbetter to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it. Bullpup weapons with the exception of the FN2000 are not as usefull all the time as regular rifles are. try joining the military and doing MOUT work you have to position your weapon in all kinds of strange angles. I dont want to worry about a face full of brass when I should be worrying about engaging enemy soldiers
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:32:57 AM EDT
I like the P90. It dosente matter what hand you fire with!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:35:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
In fairness, the British do seem to have a tradition of getting one or two good bayonet charges in in every war. The current goings-on in Iraq appear to be no different. And they still won. "It's not size that counts, it's how you use it!"

When was the last US Army or USMC bayonet charge, out of interest?

NTM



Marines actually have done at least one bayonet charge that I know of if Iraq. I can't remember if they actually got in hand to hand though. Of course most Marines still carry M16A2s.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:36:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 11:41:00 AM EDT by Manic_Moran]
Which now you mention it raises another point. With the increasing prevalence of the M-4 carbine as the 'weapon of choice' for the US Army, the shorter length of the bullpup in hand-to-hand bayoneting vs a 'standard' rifle becomes irrelevant.

try joining the military and doing MOUT work you half to position your weapon in all kinds of strange angles

Try doing MOUT work with a full-length M-16A2. There's a reason the M-4s were in high demand. When 'stacking', we were taught to hold an A2 in such a manner that the stock was resting on top of the shoulder, and sticking over the back in order to make the thing shorter and less unwieldy. If you get an M-4, you lose the long barrel the bullpup has. If you get a bullpup (bar central-ejecting ones), you lose the ability to shoot wrong-handed. It's all a compromise.

The long A2s were also problematic for us in the vehicles. Hard to find where to fit them in the tank.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:03:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Where is that opinion from the Aussie Sargeant about his country's severe problems with the Steyr AUG?

I used to have it bookmarked for discussions such as this.

Eric The(GooglingHisTailOff)Hun



Aussies made their own AUGs to a much lower standard than Austria.

AUGs can be fired from the offhand, you just can't put your face over or near the ejection port. A little unerving but it can be done if needed.

AUG mag changes can be done just as fast as more rifles and faster than an AK if you know the proper way.



Once again Steyr AUG is right.

I own two Steyr AUGs and with a little practice you can preform mag changes with a AUG has fast has a M1A, AK47, or HK91.

A Second complaint is the ergonomics of a bullpup is bad. This is BS, my AUG feels just as balanced and comfortable to shoot as my AR15.

Another bullpup complaint is that the trigger suck, I can not speak for a FAMAS or FN2000 but the Steyr AUG has a 7 or 8 pound trigger which is better than a HK.

Finally, the new complaint about bullpups is the chance they will KB. Well if you are that worried about firearms and the very slim chance they will KB, then you should not use a gun at all. There have been plenty of pictures posted here of Glocks, 1911, USPs ARs, and FALs with KB damage. And many of use have Glocks,1911, USP, ARs and FALs in our safes.

I enjoy shooting/hunting bullpup rifles, granted I am not in Law Enforcement or the Military so I can not comment on bullpups as a combat weapon, but IMO the AUG is a well built weapon that is just as good as a HK, FN or AR.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:11:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 4:36:16 PM EDT by sgthoskins]
I shot this model in Scotland a couple of years ago. They called it a Bull-pup.



I'm not sure if it is a bull-pup but I do know that it is not very accurate at 300 meters. The optics make for quick target aquisition, but the accuracy isn't there. They look cool, but I don't care for them.

Derek
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:29:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 4:38:53 PM EDT by mcantu]
Its funny how all of the comments I've ever read from Aussie and Austrian soldiers say that reloads and MOUT are not a problem. They are trained on bullpups from day one so they have no conflicting habits to unlearn.

The SA80 was a failure not because it is a bullpup but because of a bad design. And anti-French comments not withstanding, I have never heard any negative remarks about the FAMAS. The latest rifles from Israel, Singapore, South Africa, China have all been bullpups...

And for those that use the left side of cover arguement against bullpups, here is a quote from the USMC Rifle Marksmanship training manual

If, however, a right-handed
Marine must fire from the
left side of cover, he fires
right-handed but adjusts his
position behind cover and
uses the rollout technique
(see para. 6003) to engage
the target. See figure 6-12.



Here is the link to it

Page 6-5

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:37:45 PM EDT


Uh, yes please!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:39:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Its funny how all of the comments I've ever read from Aussie and Austrian soldiers say that reloads and MOUT are not a problem. They are trained on bullpups from day one so they have no conflicting habits to unlearn.

The SA80 was a failure not because it is a bullpup but because of a bad design. And anti-French comments not withstanding, I have never heard any negative remarks about the FAMAS. The latest rifles from Israel, Singapore, South Africa, China have all been bullpups...



I always wanted a FAMAS. I also like Israel's TAVOR. I'm not really sure if bullpups are good or bad, though, I never even handled one.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:42:07 PM EDT
If the SAW Gunner is dead of out of action someone should be using the SAW. Its the weapon with the most direct firepower at the squad level, it should always be in action.

Besides if the design adopted had a downward ejecting, or front ejecting brass then this wouldn't even nee to be an issue.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:50:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:41:06 PM EDT by mcantu]
For comparison purposes

FAMAS

Tavor

South African CR21

Chinese Type 95

Singapore SAR21


Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:42:36 PM EDT
Just fyi...there WERE pics in my post above
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:19:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By w4klr:
I love the bullpup concept, especially with the execution of it in the Steyr Aug. It's a great way to keep barrel length to improve bullet performance, without sacrificing mobility with the weapon.

Having a 20" barrel on a bullpup platform will give the round higher velocity and will improve terminal ballistics at your target, while keeping the weapon in an M4ish size, even smaller.

with the exception of the FN 2000, bullpup weapons are shitty for military service what happens when you are faced with a MOUT situation and you have to use the weapon with the off hand. I will tell you what happens you get a face full of brass that burns a hole in your cheek.




+1

I burned the fuck out of my ear with some hot brass when I was in the Army due to this sort of thing. I'd rather take a slightly longer rifle instead of locking myself out of 50% of the possible shooting positions.
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