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Posted: 6/6/2008 3:51:14 PM EST
Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace 'open carry'



www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-opencarry7-2008jun07,0,849912.story



PROVO, UTAH — For years, Kevin Jensen carried a pistol everywhere he went, tucked in a shoulder holster beneath his clothes.

In hot weather the holster was almost unbearable. Pressed against Jensen's skin, the firearm was heavy and uncomfortable. Hiding the weapon made him feel like a criminal.

Then one evening he stumbled across a site that urged gun owners to do something revolutionary: Carry your gun openly for the world to see as you go about your business.

In most states there's no law against that.

Jensen thought about it and decided to give it a try. A couple of days later, his gun was visible, dangling from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called the police. No one stopped him.

Now Jensen carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols dangling from their hip holsters, and have never received a complaint or a wary look.

Jensen said he tries not to flaunt his gun. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " he said.

But he and others who publicly display their guns have a common purpose.

The Jensens are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm as common an accessory as an iPod. Called "open carry" by its supporters, the movement has attracted grandparents, graduate students and lifelong gun enthusiasts like the Jensens.

"What we're trying to say is, 'Hey, we're normal people who carry guns,' " said Travis Deveraux, 36, of West Valley, a Salt Lake City suburb. Deveraux works for a credit card company and sometimes walks around town wearing a cowboy hat and packing a pistol in plain sight. "We want the public to understand it's not just cops who can carry guns."

Police acknowledge the practice is legal, but some say it makes their lives tougher.

Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man.

Greiner tells the story as a lesson for gun owners. "We've changed over the last 200 years from the days of the wild, wild west," Greiner said. "Most people don't openly carry. . . . If [people] truly want to open carry, they ought to expect they'll be challenged more until people become comfortable with it."

Jensen and others argue that police shouldn't judge the gun, but rather the actions of the person carrying it. Jensen, 28, isn't opposed to attention, however. It's part of the reason he brought his gun out in the open.

"At first, [open carry] was a little novelty," he said. "Then I realized the chances of me educating someone are bigger than ever using it [the gun]in self-defense. If it's in my pants or under my shirt I'm probably not going to do anything with it."

As Clachelle pushed the shopping cart holding their two young children during a recent trip to Costco, her husband admired the new holster wrapped around her waist. "I like the look of that low-rise gun belt," he said.

The Jensens' pistols were snapped into holsters attached to black belts that hug their waists. Guns are a fact of life in their household. Their 5-year-old daughter, Sierra, has a child-sized .22 rifle she handles only in her parents' presence

Clachelle is the daughter of a central California police chief and began shooting when she was about Sierra's age. She would take her parents' gun when she went out and hide it in her purse because the firearm made her feel safer.

"I love 'em," Clachelle said. "I wouldn't ever be without them."

Kevin Jensen's first encounter with guns came when he was 11. His grandfather died and left him a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun stayed locked away but fascinated Jensen through his teen years. He convinced his older brother to take him shooting in the countryside near their home in a small town south of Salt Lake City.

"I immediately fell in love with it," said Jensen, a lean man with close-cropped hair and a precise gait that is a reminder of his five years in the Army Reserve. "I like things that go boom."

Jensen kept as many as 10 guns in the couple's 1930s-style bungalow in Santaquin, 21 miles southwest of Provo. In January 2005, he decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, mainly for self-defense.

"I'm not going to hide in the corner of a school and mall and wait for the shooting to stop," he said.

When Jensen bought a Glock and the dealer threw in an external hip holster, he began researching the idea of carrying the gun in public and came upon OpenCarry.org.

The website, run by two Virginia gun enthusiasts, claims 4,000 members nationwide. It summarizes the varying laws in each state that permit or forbid the practice. People everywhere have the right to prohibit weapons from their property, and firearms are often banned in government buildings like courthouses.

According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely ban the practice, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns.

Utah has no law prohibiting anyone from carrying a gun in public, as long as it is two steps from firing -- for example, the weapon may have a loaded clip but must be uncocked, with no bullets in the chamber. Those who obtain a concealed weapons permit in Utah don't have that restriction. Also, youths under 18 can carry a gun openly with parental approval and a supervising adult in close proximity.

Most of the time people don't notice Jensen's gun. That's not uncommon, said John Pierce, a law student and computer consultant in Virginia who is a co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

"People are carrying pagers, BlackBerrys, cellphones," Pierce said. "They see a black lump on your belt and their eyes slide off."

Sometimes the reactions are comical. Bill White, a 24-year-old graduate student in ancient languages at the University of Colorado at Boulder, wears his Colt pistol out in the open when he goes to his local Starbucks. Earlier this month a tourist from California spotted him and snapped a photo on his cell phone.

"He said it would prove he was in the Wild West," White recalled.

But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.

Deveraux saw the incident as not giving ground on his rights. "I'm proud that happened," he said.

Cases like this are talked about during regular gatherings of those who favor open carry. At a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy, more than 40 civilians with guns strapped to their hips took over a corner of the restaurant, eating pasta and boisterously sharing stories.

Hassles with law enforcement were a badge of honor for some.

Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave."

Having pistols strapped around their waists made Shel Anderson, 67, and his wife, Kaye, 63, feel more secure. Long-time recreational shooters, they began to carry their pistols openly after a spate of home-invasion robberies in their neighborhood. The firearms can serve as a warning to predators, they said.

"I decided I want to have as much of an advantage as I can have in this day and age," said Kaye Anderson, a retired schoolteacher.

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

The gangly graphics designer grew up in a home without guns and didn't think of owning one until he started dating a woman -- now his wife -- who lived in a rough neighborhood. One night last year, a youth had his head beaten in with a pipe outside her bedroom window. The next day, Thompson got a concealed-weapon permit.

Thompson found out about open carry last month while reading gun sites. He's become a convert. He likes the statement it makes.

Glancing around the restaurant, as armed families like the Jensens dined with men in cowboy hats and professionals like himself, Thompson smiled.

"I love this," he said. "I want people to be aware that crazy people are not the only ones with guns. Normal people carry them."

The Jensens' daughter, Sierra, and newborn son, Tyler, began to get restless, so they bundled up the children and pulled the manager of the restaurant aside to thank her for hosting them.

A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here."

Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left.

Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe.

"People can feel that way and it doesn't bother me," he said. "If they have irrational fears, that's fine."
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:00:17 PM EST
"Oh noes, the kiddies will be killed"!!!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:01:54 PM EST
Tag for the inevitable hue and cry that "open carry is dumb".
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:07:23 PM EST
Good article.

Never heard of an XD in .35 though...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:07:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:08:54 PM EST
Good article, cap.

As great as the state of TEXAS is, we don't have open carry. I don't think I would, but there are people that sure would down here.

HH
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:15:24 PM EST
Man, I wish Texas allowed open carry. Around here, masses of libtards would shit their pants!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:20:47 PM EST
Ohio allows open carry. I just never tried it. Really don't want to deal with the problem it could create and I don't really want many of my neighbors knowing I own guns quite yet.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:22:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Man, I wish Texas allowed open carry. Around here, masses of libtards would shit their pants!


...especially in Austin.



HH
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:23:57 PM EST
These guys do have a point though, trying to make it more common place and accepted. You have to (re)start somewhere.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:24:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By deliverator:
Good article.

Never heard of an XD in .35 though...


XD .45 typo?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:33:35 PM EST
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.


Flamesuit on.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:37:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.


Flamesuit on.


Possible, I suppose. I'm betting pretty darn unlikely though.

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:39:09 PM EST
Yeah, OC FTW!!!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:40:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.

Flamesuit on.

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:49:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By cjk1:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.


Flamesuit on.


Possible, I suppose. I'm betting pretty darn unlikely though.




I think it would be highly likely. Imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. There is no way you're going to be able to draw your weapon in time when they pull out their guns and decide they're just going to shoot you rather than try to disarm you.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:49:46 PM EST
I would rather have mine concealed, but I wish open carry was completely legal nd accepted everwhere for a couple of simple reasons.

OWB holsters are more comfortable and I don't want anyone to freak out if I stretch for a can of food on the top shelf at the grocery store. I don't like having to constantly be mindful of the wind blowing my shirt up and exposing my gun. If it was widely acceptible, I'd probably still carry concealed, but I'd like the peace of mind to know that I won't be hassled by the cops because it's a windy day.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:50:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?


These days cops do get shot every day. I can't sort out the ones that are shot simply because they've got guns from those that are shot simply because they're cops, and neither can you.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:54:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think it would be highly likely. Imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. There is no way you're going to be able to draw your weapon in time when they pull out their guns and decide they're just going to shoot you rather than try to disarm you.


Now imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. Rather than risk it, they leave and rob an easier target.

See, we both have good imaginations.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:56:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.

Flamesuit on.

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?


From the article:


But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.




You want a cop with a Glock, pointing it at you with his finger on the trigger? If the cop misjudges any movement you make, you're gonna get shot. Remember the US airman that was shot by a cop when the airman started to stand up after the cop told him to get up? I'm not saying it happens everyday, but there are numerous instances of cops shooting people when the cop misjudged the movement of a subject. If you don't put yourself in a position to have cops pointing their guns at you, you kinda minimize that risk.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:59:11 PM EST
Open carry is legal in PA, I havent done it yet for my own reason. I do understand why people do OC and I think its great that they do it. I commend them for taking all the hasles and risks associated with OC and do it to show the public that it is legal and normal people do carry and use the 2nd for more than just hunting.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:00:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bloencustoms:
I would rather have mine concealed, but I wish open carry was completely legal nd accepted everwhere for a couple of simple reasons.

OWB holsters are more comfortable and I don't want anyone to freak out if I stretch for a can of food on the top shelf at the grocery store. I don't like having to constantly be mindful of the wind blowing my shirt up and exposing my gun. If it was widely acceptible, I'd probably still carry concealed, but I'd like the peace of mind to know that I won't be hassled by the cops because it's a windy day.


This is my favorite response, including the logic behind the statement.

+1

HH
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:04:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jack_T:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think it would be highly likely. Imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. There is no way you're going to be able to draw your weapon in time when they pull out their guns and decide they're just going to shoot you rather than try to disarm you.


Now imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. Rather than risk it, they leave and rob an easier target.

See, we both have good imaginations.




Criminals aren't know for their use of good judgment. Otherwise they wouldn't be criminals.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:06:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?


These days cops do get shot every day. I can't sort out the ones that are shot simply because they've got guns from those that are shot simply because they're cops, and neither can you.


Indeed not, but we also can't sort out those that were shot simply because they were cops from those who were shot simply for wearing polyester; I have a hunch as to which motivation is more likely though.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:09:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Man, I wish Texas allowed open carry. Around here, masses of libtards would shit their pants!




Can't you open-carry a rifle or shotgun in Texas?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:10:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By capnrob97:
...snip...

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

...snip...


WTF?!?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:14:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By tr_1127:

Originally Posted By capnrob97:
...snip...

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

...snip...


WTF?!?


probably a typo or a misquote. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch about
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:14:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 5:15:35 PM EST by mmsurber]

Originally Posted By tr_1127:

Originally Posted By capnrob97:
...snip...

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

...snip...


WTF?!?


Typo. Either meant XD-357 or XD-45.

ETA: Damnit. Beat by several seconds.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:19:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.

Flamesuit on.

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?


From the article:


But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.




You want a cop with a Glock, pointing it at you with his finger on the trigger? If the cop misjudges any movement you make, you're gonna get shot. Remember the US airman that was shot by a cop when the airman started to stand up after the cop told him to get up? I'm not saying it happens everyday, but there are numerous instances of cops shooting people when the cop misjudged the movement of a subject. If you don't put yourself in a position to have cops pointing their guns at you, you kinda minimize that risk.

Your first reference was to getting shot by a gang banger for the pistol. I'm well aware cops can be idiots but I doubt they would shoot you because you were packing on your hip. Now if you had it in your hand walking down the street thats a different story...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:24:57 PM EST
Good article.

But no one has mentioned the use of the 'F' word yet... The guns make them 'FEEL safer'...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:26:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

You want a cop with a Glock, pointing it at you with his finger on the trigger? If the cop misjudges any movement you make, you're gonna get shot. Remember the US airman that was shot by a cop when the airman started to stand up after the cop told him to get up? I'm not saying it happens everyday, but there are numerous instances of cops shooting people when the cop misjudged the movement of a subject. If you don't put yourself in a position to have cops pointing their guns at you, you kinda minimize that risk.


Maybe if y'all had some cops that knew what they were doing...

Truth is, 90% of the time, a gun on your hip doesn't get so much as a second glance. Of course, if you'd move outta that commie state and head for a freedom loving state, you wouldn't have to worry about it.

As for the whole "but but but you're gonna get shot first!" folks, I'll betcha I can get my pistol out and up from a belt holster than you can from your tucked deep concealment rig. Theives don't want to risk their asses-that's why there aren't many gun store robberies. I'm sure there have been a few, but not very many.

I think I'll continue excersizing my rights-I don't really care how un-tactical other folks think it is.

And again, maybe you should get outta Texas and head for a free state that allows you to carry a gun without a permission slip.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:29:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:


Maybe if y'all had some cops that knew what they were doing...

Truth is, 90% of the time, a gun on your hip doesn't get so much as a second glance. Of course, if you'd move outta that commie state and head for a freedom loving state, you wouldn't have to worry about it.

As for the whole "but but but you're gonna get shot first!" folks, I'll betcha I can get my pistol out and up from a belt holster than you can from your tucked deep concealment rig. Theives don't want to risk their asses-that's why there aren't many gun store robberies. I'm sure there have been a few, but not very many.

I think I'll continue excersizing my rights-I don't really care how un-tactical other folks think it is.

And again, maybe you should get outta Texas and head for a free state that allows you to carry a gun without a permission slip.


G-T, were you OCing when I met you? if so, I never noticed.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:31:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By Bloencustoms:
I would rather have mine concealed, but I wish open carry was completely legal nd accepted everwhere for a couple of simple reasons.

OWB holsters are more comfortable and I don't want anyone to freak out if I stretch for a can of food on the top shelf at the grocery store. I don't like having to constantly be mindful of the wind blowing my shirt up and exposing my gun. If it was widely acceptible, I'd probably still carry concealed, but I'd like the peace of mind to know that I won't be hassled by the cops because it's a windy day.


This is my favorite response, including the logic behind the statement.

+1

HH


THAT is my reason for supporting open carry laws - in EVERY state.

+2
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:33:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By AGW:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
Tag for the inevitable hue and cry that "open carry is dumb".


All the anti open-carry fooz have never been to the four corners. And what's an XD-35?


They make a 9mm? That's technically .35...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:33:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jack_T:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think it would be highly likely. Imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. There is no way you're going to be able to draw your weapon in time when they pull out their guns and decide they're just going to shoot you rather than try to disarm you.


Now imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. Rather than risk it, they leave and rob an easier target.

See, we both have good imaginations.


+1 Jack's scenario is actually the more likely one.



A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here."

Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left.

Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe.

"People can feel that way and it doesn't bother me," he said. "If they have irrational fears, that's fine."



So, the other patron berated Jensen for having a gun.

Jensen should have replied, "Sir, if you are so afraid that someone will go crazy and shoot people don't you think it is stupid to try to provoke an argument with that person? But apparently you don't think I would do that, or you wouldn't be here talking to me now, would you? So, what exactly is your problem?"
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:35:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

Originally Posted By stangboy555:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.

Flamesuit on.

Kind of like how detectives and police are getting capped every day for open carrying?


From the article:


But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.




You want a cop with a Glock, pointing it at you with his finger on the trigger? If the cop misjudges any movement you make, you're gonna get shot. Remember the US airman that was shot by a cop when the airman started to stand up after the cop told him to get up? I'm not saying it happens everyday, but there are numerous instances of cops shooting people when the cop misjudged the movement of a subject. If you don't put yourself in a position to have cops pointing their guns at you, you kinda minimize that risk.

Your first reference was to getting shot by a gang banger for the pistol. I'm well aware cops can be idiots but I doubt they would shoot you because you were packing on your hip. Now if you had it in your hand walking down the street thats a different story...




You fail to realize that when a cop doesn't know the law about open carry, he thinks you're a criminal when he sees you with a gun on your hip and you can't produce a badge. When the cop pulls his gun on you (like what happened to the guy in the article), the cop is thinking you are a threat. Otherwise, why would the cop pull his gun and point it at you (like the cop in the article)? The cop's adrenaline is high and any misjudgment by the cop MAY end up with him pulling the trigger.


I can't count the stories I've read where cops draw down on people legally open carrying. Do you feel perfectly safe when a cop is pointing his gun at you? I know i wouldn't.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:24:36 PM EST
This author is full of so much firearm terminology FAIL it makes me laugh.

While it is abundantly clear that he knows NOTHING about firearms, he's written an incredibly open minded and favorable article concerning open carry, concealed carry, and gun owners in general. Bravo to someone not overcome with yellow journalism.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:52:07 PM EST

Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man.



And somehow, this is supposed to illustrate the "dangers" of open carry.


Why can't I be around when idiots spout nonsense like this?
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 3:22:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2008 3:25:46 AM EST by MarkNH]

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

You fail to realize that when a cop doesn't know the law about open carry, he thinks you're a criminal when he sees you with a gun on your hip and you can't produce a badge. When the cop pulls his gun on you (like what happened to the guy in the article), the cop is thinking you are a threat. Otherwise, why would the cop pull his gun and point it at you (like the cop in the article)? The cop's adrenaline is high and any misjudgment by the cop MAY end up with him pulling the trigger.


I can't count the stories I've read where cops draw down on people legally open carrying. Do you feel perfectly safe when a cop is pointing his gun at you? I know i wouldn't.


and that is enough reason to avoid doing something 100% legal? just because you may encounter a cop who thinks you are breaking the law and maybe just maybe that cop would shoot you?

The vast majority of the people on the opencarry site do not go out looking for confrontations with the police, they go about their everyday lives and in almost every instance they do not have any interaction with the police.

When there is a "man with a gun" call made and the police have to investigate 99 times out of 100 it is a friendly encounter, no guns drawn, no shootouts at the ok corral.

Sometimes the officer responding doesn't understand the law and that is seen as an opportunity to educate, either directly with the officer or later with his superiors with the intent of getting a training bulletin issued to all officers in the area.

Maybe in downtown Houston/Philly/NY/DC/Boston etc a cop would see a man with a holstered handgun and think criminal but most of the country isn't like that.

ETA: a scruffy goth with a CCW carrying "mexican style" who fails to conceal properly is a lot more likely to have a gun drawn encounter with law enforcement than a well dressed man open carrying a holstered handgun.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 3:30:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:

You fail to realize that when a cop doesn't know the law about open carry, he thinks you're a criminal when he sees you with a gun on your hip and you can't produce a badge. When the cop pulls his gun on you (like what happened to the guy in the article), the cop is thinking you are a threat. Otherwise, why would the cop pull his gun and point it at you (like the cop in the article)? The cop's adrenaline is high and any misjudgment by the cop MAY end up with him pulling the trigger.


I can't count the stories I've read where cops draw down on people legally open carrying. Do you feel perfectly safe when a cop is pointing his gun at you? I know i wouldn't.

That's the whole point of what these guys are trying to do. Educate people and ignorant cops. If more of us did OC on a daily basis (where legal) then it would eventually become the norm instead of the exception. Cops would eventually learn the law and thugs would think twice about taking out a convienence store with 3 or 4 armed men out of 10 people in the store.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 3:36:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2008 3:37:25 AM EST by DvlDog]
the vast majority of people I know who filrt with open carry are n00bs. Yes we're all very proud of you for finally buying a firearm when youre 30. youve got 300rds downrange in your shooting career and you still flinch when you drop the slide...please, open carry in wal-mart so we can all give you the attention you so richly deserve.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 3:36:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.


Flamesuit on.


+1. But I defend other's right to open carry. It means the bad guys will shoot them first and allow me draw and shoot them with my concealed weapon.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 3:57:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think open carry is just plain dumb. You WILL be faced with numerous people and police that do not know the law. It could get you killed by some dumbass cop. Also, there is no doubt about it that a criminal has a element of surprise advantage over you, and he may just shoot you right off the bat when he sees you are armed. I think people that open carry love the shock factor that it generates when they are in public. It's like a woman that walks around without a bra and a tight shirt. They love the attention.


Flamesuit on.


Have you ever tried it?
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:08:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
the vast majority of people I know who filrt with open carry are n00bs. Yes we're all very proud of you for finally buying a firearm when youre 30. youve got 300rds downrange in your shooting career and you still flinch when you drop the slide...please, open carry in wal-mart so we can all give you the attention you so richly deserve.




And sometimes it's necessary.

Like here in VA. If I want to carry into a restaurant that serves alcohol, I MUST expose my gun, or leave it in the car.

I would much rather leave it concealed, but open carry doesn't really bother me either. On occasion I've OC'd when I just didn't feel like changing my clothes or holsters.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:16:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By deliverator:
Good article.

Never heard of an XD in .35 though...


It's sold in the same stores as the 40mm Glock pistols.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:20:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I think it would be highly likely. Imagine this scenario: You're in a convenience store late at night paying for your goods. Two men come in the store. They look just like typical mid-twenty year old guys that don't have much on the ball. You know, the typical type of people you see in a convenience store at 2AM. As it turns out, they are intent on robbing the place. You don't know they are going to rob the place and their weapons are concealed. They're just acting normal as they approach the register. They see your gun on your hip and their hands are on their pistols in their jacket pocket. There is no way you're going to be able to draw your weapon in time when they pull out their guns and decide they're just going to shoot you rather than try to disarm you.


Nothing good goes on downtown after 9pm. You should be in bed by 2am.



Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:25:13 AM EST
i would open carry if it was legal in SC. i would also carry an AK slung on my back if i could too. everywhere i went. im not joking.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:28:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
the vast majority of people I know who filrt with open carry are n00bs. Yes we're all very proud of you for finally buying a firearm when youre 30. youve got 300rds downrange in your shooting career and you still flinch when you drop the slide...please, open carry in wal-mart so we can all give you the attention you so richly deserve.

I didn't realize the 2nd Amendment had "as long as DvlDog says it's ok" at the end.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:28:40 AM EST
OH NO!!!!!

Dont you know that you will be shot first during a bank robbery if you open carry!!!!

lol
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:29:15 AM EST
In 23 years of living in NH/VT (where open carry is legal), I think I've seen it 2 or three times.

That said, none of those situations created any fuss.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 4:35:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Man, I wish Texas allowed open carry. Around here, masses of libtards would shit their pants!



I don't no....any one know the answer?
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