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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 12/15/2013 6:06:49 AM EST
Although there are things that go against what we have come to believe about liability. This is interesting.

After many arguments, the liberals don’t seem to understand that NO Obamacare is a valid alternative to Obamacare. That even though we’ve suffered many evils so far with ObamaCare, there are more yet to suffer and that repealing it will go miles to making life better in the United States.

ObamaCare itself is either the greatest confluence of incompetence ever known in history, or it is an intentional botch up. You can see it now every time a democrat gets in front of a microphone or camera. “This [massive government intrusion into free enterprise] is a failure of Capitalism. A single payer system will solve everything!”

And yet No Obamacare is not a solution to Obamacare? Fine. I’ll propose a real solution. And I’ll fix the entirety of the Health Care system at the same time.
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Link to article
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:20:22 AM EST
That's because they are laboring (poor choice of words, perhaps, for liberals) under the false premise that something was wrong with our healthcare to begin with.

In before the health provider and health insurance company haters.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:24:51 AM EST
His step one is stupid and falls under the trap of the only way to fix government intervention is more government intervention. Not having ANY insurance is just unwise.

If you owned your home outright you are welcome to not have homeowner's insurance. You'd be a fool not to, but nobody is going to make you.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:31:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2013 6:33:32 AM EST by RPMG]
This article does go against things that we have come to believe as good or that help alleviate fears. Having and Paying for years for insurance "just in case" is one of those fears alleviated. If we put that premium in an investment or plain saving account and saved say $10,000-$20,000 that would take care of most incidents since cost should come down due to the other areas. I do think maybe some catastrophic insurance for to handle the big things may be in order though. If you never used it then it would still be your money. you would not have given it to someone else "just in case".

Be self insured to handle the non-catastrophic things.

ETA: This plan may not be perfect but it is better that government takeover and rationing of 1/6 of the economy. Unless you are into that kinda thing.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:36:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2013 6:41:43 AM EST by godzillamax]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
That's because they are laboring (poor choice of words, perhaps, for liberals) under the false premise that something was wrong with our healthcare to begin with.

In before the health provider and health insurance company haters.
View Quote


Oh, there were a myriad of things wrong with America's healthcare system, and almost all were government induced. That, was the heart of the problem.
- Low CMS reimbursement rates - government problem
- Mandates on what services insurers must cover - government problem
- Mandates on where and how insurers could/couldn't sell coverage - government problem
- Threat of reverse engineering pharmaceuticals if they aren't sold at or below cost - government problem
- People unable to afford healthcare insurance because of massive government spending and inflation over the decades - government problem

I could go on and on. 9 out of 10 issues with the pre-Obamacare healthcare system in the U.S. can all be attributed to government rules/regs and intervention.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:41:07 AM EST
The only way to fix it is to not let the government have a hand in it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:44:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2013 6:45:43 AM EST by dirtyboy]
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:47:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RPMG:
This article does go against things that we have come to believe as good or that help alleviate fears. Having and Paying for years for insurance "just in case" is one of those fears alleviated. If we put that premium in an investment or plain saving account and saved say $10,000-$20,000 that would take care of most incidents since cost should come down due to the other areas. I do think maybe some catastrophic insurance for to handle the big things may be in order though. If you never used it then it would still be your money. you would not have given it to someone else "just in case".

Be self insured to handle the non-catastrophic things.

ETA: This plan may not be perfect but it is better that government takeover and rationing of 1/6 of the economy. Unless you are into that kinda thing.
View Quote


There is one flaw in your thinking, and that is you are thinking about healthcare insurance like it was insurance. It was not. Healthcare insurance over the past few decades was more akin to a gym membership than actual insurance. Automotive insurance is how healthcare insurance should function. But it does not.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:48:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.
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Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:53:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.


No flame, but a little history lesson: The employer-provided insurance took hold because the government allowed companies to deduct premiums from their taxes. The problem began 70 years ago when politicians got into bed with health insurance companies. dirtyboy is asking for it to go back to the way it was before the federal government got involved. That's less government, not more.

The vast majority of people still don't seem to understand that insurance is the problem.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:53:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.
View Quote


I disagree. I have no problem with an employer offering healthcare insurance as a compensation benefit. Their company, their choice to offer that perk. And people do pay for their insurance, it's called co-pays and a premium. The root problem is that it isn't really insurance as it is a gym membership. If an employer no longer wishes to pay for healthcare insurance, fine, cancel your employee's policies and adjust their salaries to compensate for the loss (which would mean giving all employees a raise equal to the tax adjusted cost of the employee and employer premium). And to make this work, eliminate the government rules that disallow buying of plans outside state lines. Now for the 6-10 million uninsured, just add them onto the rolls of Medicaid and find some equivalent pork spending to cut elsewhere to remain revenue neutral. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:55:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
His step one is stupid and falls under the trap of the only way to fix government intervention is more government intervention. Not having ANY insurance is just unwise.

If you owned your home outright you are welcome to not have homeowner's insurance. You'd be a fool not to, but nobody is going to make you.
View Quote

What about people who can't get insurance?

The .gov is a big part of the problem. Scumbag lawyers are a bigger part. Don't think for a second the behavior of some of the insurance companies didn't help push this.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:55:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By godzillamax:


There is one flaw in your thinking, and that is you are thinking about healthcare insurance like it was insurance. It was not. Healthcare insurance over the past few decades was more akin to a gym membership than actual insurance. Automotive insurance is how healthcare insurance should function. But it does not.
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Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By RPMG:
This article does go against things that we have come to believe as good or that help alleviate fears. Having and Paying for years for insurance "just in case" is one of those fears alleviated. If we put that premium in an investment or plain saving account and saved say $10,000-$20,000 that would take care of most incidents since cost should come down due to the other areas. I do think maybe some catastrophic insurance for to handle the big things may be in order though. If you never used it then it would still be your money. you would not have given it to someone else "just in case".

Be self insured to handle the non-catastrophic things.

ETA: This plan may not be perfect but it is better that government takeover and rationing of 1/6 of the economy. Unless you are into that kinda thing.


There is one flaw in your thinking, and that is you are thinking about healthcare insurance like it was insurance. It was not. Healthcare insurance over the past few decades was more akin to a gym membership than actual insurance. Automotive insurance is how healthcare insurance should function. But it does not.


Exactly. Insurance is for catastrophic events ie. cancer, organ transplant, multiple complicated traumas from an MVA, etc. If auto insurance paid for oil changes then they would cost $250.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:57:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:


No flame, but a little history lesson: The employer-provided insurance took hold because the government allowed companies to deduct premiums from their taxes. The problem began 70 years ago when politicians got into bed with health insurance companies. dirtyboy is asking for it to go back to the way it was before the federal government got involved. That's less government, not more.

The vast majority of people still don't seem to understand that insurance is the problem.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.


No flame, but a little history lesson: The employer-provided insurance took hold because the government allowed companies to deduct premiums from their taxes. The problem began 70 years ago when politicians got into bed with health insurance companies. dirtyboy is asking for it to go back to the way it was before the federal government got involved. That's less government, not more.

The vast majority of people still don't seem to understand that insurance is the problem.


Employers offered healthcare insurance BECAUSE of government wage controls. It was a perk that allowed an employer to attract talented employees at a time when government regulations limited how much they could pay them in salary. Had those government wage controls never existed healthcare insurance would probably today be no different than automotive insurance.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:57:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By godzillamax:


I disagree. I have no problem with an employer offering healthcare insurance as a compensation benefit. Their company, their choice to offer that perk. And people do pay for their insurance, it's called co-pays and a premium. The root problem is that it isn't really insurance as it is a gym membership. If an employer no longer wishes to pay for healthcare insurance, fine, cancel your employee's policies and adjust their salaries to compensate for the loss (which would mean giving all employees a raise equal to the tax adjusted cost of the employee and employer premium). And to make this work, eliminate the government rules that disallow buying of plans outside state lines. Now for the 6-10 million uninsured, just add them onto the rolls of Medicaid and find some equivalent pork spending to cut elsewhere to remain revenue neutral. Problem solved.
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Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.


I disagree. I have no problem with an employer offering healthcare insurance as a compensation benefit. Their company, their choice to offer that perk. And people do pay for their insurance, it's called co-pays and a premium. The root problem is that it isn't really insurance as it is a gym membership. If an employer no longer wishes to pay for healthcare insurance, fine, cancel your employee's policies and adjust their salaries to compensate for the loss (which would mean giving all employees a raise equal to the tax adjusted cost of the employee and employer premium). And to make this work, eliminate the government rules that disallow buying of plans outside state lines. Now for the 6-10 million uninsured, just add them onto the rolls of Medicaid and find some equivalent pork spending to cut elsewhere to remain revenue neutral. Problem solved.


It's their right to offer it as a perk, but they shouldn't be allowed any more tax deduction than if it were bought by an individual.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:58:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By godzillamax:


Employers offered healthcare insurance BECAUSE of government wage controls. It was a perk that allowed an employer to attract talented employees at a time when government regulations limited how much they could pay them in salary. Had those government wage controls never existed healthcare insurance would probably today be no different than automotive insurance.
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Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.


No flame, but a little history lesson: The employer-provided insurance took hold because the government allowed companies to deduct premiums from their taxes. The problem began 70 years ago when politicians got into bed with health insurance companies. dirtyboy is asking for it to go back to the way it was before the federal government got involved. That's less government, not more.

The vast majority of people still don't seem to understand that insurance is the problem.


Employers offered healthcare insurance BECAUSE of government wage controls. It was a perk that allowed an employer to attract talented employees at a time when government regulations limited how much they could pay them in salary. Had those government wage controls never existed healthcare insurance would probably today be no different than automotive insurance.


This is all pointing out that when government gets involved in the private market it does nothing but fuck things up.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 6:59:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chadjetlag:

What about people who can't get insurance?
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Originally Posted By chadjetlag:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
His step one is stupid and falls under the trap of the only way to fix government intervention is more government intervention. Not having ANY insurance is just unwise.

If you owned your home outright you are welcome to not have homeowner's insurance. You'd be a fool not to, but nobody is going to make you.

What about people who can't get insurance?


What about them? Try clarifying what you asking.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 7:00:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:


It's their right to offer it as a perk, but they shouldn't be allowed any more tax deduction than if it were bought by an individual.
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Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.


I disagree. I have no problem with an employer offering healthcare insurance as a compensation benefit. Their company, their choice to offer that perk. And people do pay for their insurance, it's called co-pays and a premium. The root problem is that it isn't really insurance as it is a gym membership. If an employer no longer wishes to pay for healthcare insurance, fine, cancel your employee's policies and adjust their salaries to compensate for the loss (which would mean giving all employees a raise equal to the tax adjusted cost of the employee and employer premium). And to make this work, eliminate the government rules that disallow buying of plans outside state lines. Now for the 6-10 million uninsured, just add them onto the rolls of Medicaid and find some equivalent pork spending to cut elsewhere to remain revenue neutral. Problem solved.


It's their right to offer it as a perk, but they shouldn't be allowed any more tax deduction than if it were bought by an individual.

I agree with your point and the history portions. I just can't stand the "make it illegal" part.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 7:02:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2013 7:04:12 AM EST by godzillamax]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:


It's their right to offer it as a perk, but they shouldn't be allowed any more tax deduction than if it were bought by an individual.
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Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.


I disagree. I have no problem with an employer offering healthcare insurance as a compensation benefit. Their company, their choice to offer that perk. And people do pay for their insurance, it's called co-pays and a premium. The root problem is that it isn't really insurance as it is a gym membership. If an employer no longer wishes to pay for healthcare insurance, fine, cancel your employee's policies and adjust their salaries to compensate for the loss (which would mean giving all employees a raise equal to the tax adjusted cost of the employee and employer premium). And to make this work, eliminate the government rules that disallow buying of plans outside state lines. Now for the 6-10 million uninsured, just add them onto the rolls of Medicaid and find some equivalent pork spending to cut elsewhere to remain revenue neutral. Problem solved.


It's their right to offer it as a perk, but they shouldn't be allowed any more tax deduction than if it were bought by an individual.


Then we would need to eliminate the child tax credit, homeowners credit, student loan credit, and a pretty much all other credits because credits are a method for incentivizing certain actions/behavior. Imagine the political backlash from pretty much every voter (except single non-college educated (via loans) males who rent) if that were to happen.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 7:06:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.
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Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.

How about the worker gets to pay income tax on the insurance? Why can a business deduct something I can not? The disconnect between costs and coverage is what snowballed this shit.
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 7:12:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By godzillamax:

- Low CMS reimbursement rates - government problem
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the existence of CMS is more of a problem.

Link Posted: 12/15/2013 7:13:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By dirtyboy:
Solution is not outlawing insurance but in outlawing employer provided insurance. If people had to actually pay for their own policy, things would have never gotten to where we are. People have gotten used to "free" insurance and now expect it, even if they don't have a job.

Reality is that the gov will never give up their new found power and control over 1/6 th of the economy. Embrace the suck citizens.


Who the hell is the government to make insurance as part of a compensation package illegal?

Some of you folks just don't understand how to stop the government from interfering with shit.



don't need to make it illegal, just get rid of the bit of the tax code that makes health insurance benefits payable tax free
Link Posted: 12/15/2013 8:55:54 AM EST
They could have fixed it by giving everyone a 1500 tax credit to buy insurance.
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