User Panel
Posted: 9/3/2005 7:22:18 AM EDT
One of the great things about what I do for a living, political consulting and public relations for elected officials, is I get to come into contact with so many experts on a variety of issues. Yesterday I had a meeting with some of the top energy analysts and economists for the State of New York, the issue was gas prices and what the State could do to ease the pressure on the consumer. I won't go into the proposals here, would not be appropriate and no decision has been made anyway. I do wish to share the analysis of several of the people who follow this for a living.
Price Gouging IS going on... these are not regular market forces at play. There is an oligapoly that for all intent and purposes is acting as a monopoly. The amount of refined product in inventory is more than enough to meet immediate demands for at least four weeks. The easing of environmental rules to do aay with boutique gas formulations means refineries can focus on one blend of gasoline. The announcement of release from the strategic petroleum reserves means the refineries that are operational know that they will have an uniterrupted supply of crude oil, so drop off of gulf region production should not be an issue. While regional spikes in price should be anticipated, they should not be national. There is simply no reason for states WITH refining capacity such as New Jersey to be seeing the spikes that they are, nor should the immediate surrounding states. What we are seeing in New York is one of the Big 4 controlling approximately 50% of all inventory in the state, both through their own retailers as well as independents who buy from them. They sell to the independents at the pump price they sell to the consumer at their franchises... thus forcing the independent to sell for twenty to twenty five cents a gallon more to remain in business. When anybody criticizes the supplier's price, they simply point to everyone else and say give us a break, we're cheaper than our competition, we're doing the consumer a favor! There is price fixing going on, they are gouging the consumers, and there is little that the states can do. Yes, the states can cut the taxes they impose on refined petroleum products, but there is no guarantee that the savings would be passed on to the consumer and not into the pockets of the companies that are already profiteering. You can attempt price controls, but this is pretty universally accepted as a bad idea, by me included. You can cut back on usage, but the fact remains you can only cut back so much, and a very large part of our economy is dependent upon transit and shipping. What's really needed in my opinion, and my opinion only, is the government needs to break up some of these conglomerates that have a stranglehold on the economy. Phone service improved and got cheaper when competition was introduced through the break up of Ma Bell. Similarly, electricity prices have fallen in areas that allow competition between providers. Instead of allowing mergers like Exxon-Mobil, they need to break these companies up and not allow them to get too much market share. Unlike many other businesses, it is simply not possible to say I can enter the market and provide an equal or superior product for less. The cost of entering the market place is too prohibitive, either due to lack of additional refining capacity, the inability to build new refineries, import rules against bringing in refined product from overseas. As it stands now the market is not working because there is for all purposes a monopoly. Anyway, just some thoughts and observations from people who know far more about this than I do, and likely just about everybody else on the board does as well. Yes, there are economic theories on the market place, and there are economic realities. In this case the two don;t seem to play well together. |
|
Wow, intersting how the crickets are chirping on this one...none of the usual "supply and demand" and market forces gas station/petroleum apologists are checking in.
Yesterday in WNY, prices went from $3.09 in the morning to $3.89 to $4.09 by lunch time. This morning all the prices are down to $3.49.....consistent, pretty much across the board... No, no gouging going on there...supply and demand and market forces don't work that fast, up or down. I am sure the NYS Consumer Protection lines were lit up, and the stations got the word, thats why prices dropped $0.50 overnight....It was gouging pure and simple. |
|
So I'm supposed to get excited about heresay? Links? Credentials? |
|
|
Exactly how am I supposed to link a meeting? As for my credentials, it is pretty well known by many people on this board what I do for a living and who I work for. No, I am not going to blab it all over cyberspace. Suffice it to say if you have doubts, feel free to ask some of the NY crew, in particular the New York based site staff who I know in real life and have helped with certain issues they have had navigating NY's often times cumbersome bureaucracy, if I'm full of shit or not.
|
|
If it is indeed a case of price fixing (and it appears as though it is), dropping a few oil-magnate CEOs in prison for a few years would do wonders on the willingness of the others to act in a moral fashion.
|
|
A station in town had regular for $2.99. He could have gouged it up, but didn't. The next load he gets may be higher to do the increased cost to him. A decent thing to do, I thought. He'll be getting more of my business in the future. I hate those SOBs taking advantage of a situation.
|
|
At what point is it "gouging"...........2 weeks ago gas was about $2.51 right now it is $3.39......................So what "should " the price be?.....yesterday I checked on no2 heating fuel $2.49 right now........andthe heating season isnt even here yet!!!
|
|
What do ya mean Dick Cheny's buddies? |
|
|
Well gouging is in many ways a subjective judgement... I would say when you are priced at $2.57 in the morning and are $3.19 in the afternoon, and you have not taken delivery of a new shipment of gasoline... you are probably gouging. Yes, your next delivery may cost more... than again, the one after might cost less... will you as a station owner charge less than the delivery charge you just paid for the current shipment?
Seems to me that charging per gallon based upon what you think you will next pay is poor busines management on the dealer's part. What they are saying is they have no cash flow to cover a shipment and wait a few days to recover their purchase price, so they need to spike prices in anticipation of what might happen. When the price suddenly drops, you can rest assured they will not drop the price enough to give back their windfall. The problem is compounded when station B sees station A charging a higher price and figures they can too... afterall, where are you going to go? It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to see what is going on, they are charging as much as they think they can get away with knowing that gas consumption is fairly inelastic... you can only cut back so much. If there were greater competition than the Big 4, you can damn well believe you would have lower prices. That is the basic economic principle you should be focusing on, the lack of competition, the barriers to entry of competition that create a monopolastic effect that hurts consumers. |
|
Well, trolly-boy - I don't really care who their friends are or who aren't. Nitwit. |
||
|
Nitwit X 2 |
|
|
wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=31297
I took these pics during my bike ride yesterday. 1st shows the price gouging second shows the lines. The news channel from the link above happened to have gone to these two stations as part of the story |
|||
|
Not a single gas station in Albany with lines or out of gas... I can understand prices spiking if there is a true shortage, that is a supply and demand issue. In the capital region there is plenty of supply, no increased demand and skyrocketing prices.
|
|
Well I don't know HiramRanger personally but I do know in the NY forum he speaks quite often of govt type stuff he knows about. Also most of the members over there ask him about state govt stuff
|
|
If half the people going 75 would drop to 50 or 55, that would make a dent. Also planning those errands better would help. Remember the national 55 speed limit? It was a pain and often ignored, so I'm in favor of the voluntary approach. The asshats will be asshats, and occasionally we have a NEED to get somewhere fast. How often do we THINK about how fast we're going and fuel economy (optimal speed & acceleration can vary with the vehicle)? Last night I was trying to hold it to 50-55 in the RH lane and kept creeping up until I'd notice. Meanwhile most people were passing me by at least 20-25 mph and the ricers were still failing to make us stop laughing with some actual performance.
ETA: While on vacation, 2 weeks ago prices in that area jumped over 10 cents in a few days. It didn't take more than a few days to a week before the price leader there was dropping already. I think they were either overestimating how much they could gouge during the August vacation period, or trying to determine/update price elasticity of demand. |
|
Prices by me went down over 20 cents/gal. overnight. (down to $3.09/gal retail in my area)
The overall increases certainly haven't kept anyone at home so far. Lots of people out and about today. |
|
there just seems to be too many "experts" on these boards, that claim to be this, or that........I would take it for it's worth, just a opinion and nothing more.
|
|
In cali the price was $2.70 on Monday, $2.79 on tuesday, and $2.99 on friday.
That's gouging. Cali has its own refineries and doesnt get its gas from the gulf. The prices should have went down when Bush did the nationwide suspension of gas blend requirements. |
|
2.95 just down the road from me, was 3.05 yesterday |
|
|
The problem as I personally see it and its only my opinion, is that there is an unholy alliance between the federal and state legislatures, EPAs and the oil companies. Govt knows zero on how to run an oil company, but the EPAs are mandated by law to regulate the oil companies. Govt wanted fewer number of oil companies because that would make it easier for them to regulate, and of course the oil companies wanted few companies too, to prevent and/or limit the competition, so it was a win-win for everyone except of course for the consumers. Now we are stuck with a government regulated a monopoly(essentially) among those in the petroleum fuel business. Now what's the difference between socialism and communism? There is a difference, abeit fine line, but it exists.
|
|
gas prices here went from $2.999 to $2.799///Rochester area///
|
|
I am friggin tired of folks who say or post BS to posts like this. |
||
|
Is that you, Jimmy Carter? |
|
|
Rest assured that Hiram has the requisite credentials, and I would consider this to be far from 'hearsay' if it comes form him.... |
||
|
All of this just to tells us its gouging?Like we didnt already know that..
|
|
The Oklahoma Attorney General's office announced that they were opening an investigation into the reasons for the wild price hikes and that about another 39-40 states' attorneys general had announced that they were too. I don't know if they can get to the bottom of this but I don't think that they can get 40 states to lie simultaneously so I hope that it does some good. Even if it just puts the oil companies on notice that they are being watched.
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.