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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/12/2002 3:06:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:08:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:09:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:10:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:17:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:19:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 3:58:47 PM EDT
Very nice post...
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 4:05:06 PM EDT
I thought the problem between the Church and the Masons went back to the Crusades and the Inquisition. Sorry if you talked about this in your posts, I didn't read all of it.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 5:55:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 6:50:45 PM EDT
That's all well and good, but it still doesn't explain the orgy scene in [I]Eyes Wide Shut.[/I] [devil] Just kidding, thanks for explaining all that. [:D]
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 8:35:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: Those who are not Catholics might be interested in knowing that this is akin to one's status in the Church if they were to divorce.
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[b]100% incorrect[/b]. This is one of the most common misunderstandings about the Catholic stance on divorce. Simply being divorced does not mean a person has committed mortal sin (thus is not to receive the Body of Christ in the Eucharist). Divorcing and remarrying outside the Church (for those who are Catholic) bars one from receiving communion, as it is seen as adultery (another mortal sin). At least present Catholic teachings correctly. The rest of your posts sound almost exactly like Freemason websites I've looked at. What is your source for all of this, especially the Knights Templar stuff? Pope Clement V didn't seize the Templars assets. They were transferred to the Order of Hospitalers, not the Vatican. Pope Nicholas IV had already been considering merging the two orders (12 years before Clement V became pope) due to rivalry between the two orders. Clement was a weak pope who was easily deceived, and Philip the "fair" took advantage of that. Check out [url]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 8:52:58 PM EDT
Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cement.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 9:00:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Texason: That's all well and good, but it still doesn't explain the orgy scene in [I]Eyes Wide Shut.[/I] [devil] Just kidding, thanks for explaining all that. [:D]
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That was The Masons'?
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 9:19:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BillofRights: Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cement.
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Ya know, working in the Pre-stressed concrete field, this was my first thought, as well. Talk about bringing my work home with me, JEEEZ.....
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:56:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:06:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: loony, my apologies on the marriage confusion. I was thinking back to my father and his divorce from my mother. He sought, and received, an annulment so that he could remarry in the church.
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I never understood this... what happens to the status of the kids if a many-years-long marriage is "annulled"? Does that make you guys somehow illegitimate? Seriously, how does the catholic church justify this practice, as it just sounds like a legalistic "game" to get around the prohibition against divorce?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:15:21 AM EDT
Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:22:12 AM EDT
HiramRanger, As an Entered Apprentice, I thank you.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:29:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course
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According to your definition, then so would Judaism and every other world religion. Am I right?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:49:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course
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According to your definition, then so would Judaism and every other world religion. Am I right?
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Not to mention Alcoholics Anonymous, the American Legion, the local schoolboard, the kosher butcher shop, and Red Green's Possum Lodge. NONE of THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE fundamentalist Christian organizations, and yet they all seem to have prayers and other religious observances. Burn the WITCH! Burn the WITCH! Burn the WITCH! Boy, _I_ feel better.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:14:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course
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Your opinion would seem to be mistaken, given that the very DEFINITION of a pagan religion is: "One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion." Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe in the divinity of Jesus. If you mean to say that no other religion is CORRECT, that's your opinion and a legitimate one to hold. But you can't redefine words to suit your beliefs...words have meaning. Changing the meaning is something the PC liberal deconstructionist crowd does.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 1:06:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: I never understood this... what happens to the status of the kids if a many-years-long marriage is "annulled"? Does that make you guys somehow illegitimate? Seriously, how does the catholic church justify this practice, as it just sounds like a legalistic "game" to get around the prohibition against divorce?
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Very good question. It's not a game at all. The Catholic Church views matrimony as a sacrament, which the civil authority has no jurisdiction over (and quite frankly, doesn't care about). Il/legitimate children is the concern of civil law, not the sacrament. When one enters into the Sacrament of Matrimony, it is "til death do us part." Even if a civil divorce is granted, in the eyes of God the two are still married ("Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." Luke 16:18). What the anullment process does is investigate to determine if a [i]sacrament[/i] existed at the time that the couple exchanged vows. That the couple loved each other at the time they exchanged vows isn't questioned. The Church can't change the status of a person's marriage, only determine what that status actually is. Certain criteria must be met for the marriage to be a sacrament: both parties must be free to marry (nothing impeding them either in natural or church law--marrying 1st cousin, previous sacramental marriage, no coercion, etc.) and freely and knowingly consent to marry as the Church sees it. For a Catholic, the marriage must be witnessed by a priest or deacon and two witnesses. During the annullment process, the marriage is examined to see if one of the necessary elements was missing when they married (e.g. the couple at the time they married intended to [i]never[/i] have kids, they didn't know what they were doing because they didn't understand/agree with the Catholic view on marriage, he married his cousin, etc.). If these elements were missing, then the sacrament never took place to begin with, and they are free to marry. [i]However,[/i] not every annullment proceeding receives a "declaration of nullity," which is the exact term. To use Hiram's dad as an example (hope you don't mind!), if the investigation had found that his first marriage had indeed been a [i]sacramental[/i] marriage, then he would not have been free to marry again. As it is, the investigation discovered that his first marriage was not a sacrament, thus he was free to marry in the Church. If it was just a legalistic way around divorce, then everyone would get a declaration of nullity if they wanted, which isn't the case.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:16:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 4:21:27 PM EDT
I agree with HiramRanger as a whole. But i dont trust the "Brother Hood". Its members in the higher degrees tend to be leftists. not to mention that those in the higher degrees hide the meanings of its rituals from the lower degrees (1-3). Please dont think this a flame HiramRanger as i know for a fact that Masons are regular people. My own grandfather is a Mason and so is my Gunsmith. However i find i can not trust the "Brother Hood". "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike (a KKK member) left me with a very negative impression of Masonry. True that Masonry is not a religion per see, but has all of the trapping of one in that it deals with the supernatural which is evident in its rituals and motiff. The Masonic lodge is not like a Moose lodge in which members just meet to play Bingo. There are even punishments for members who expose "secrets" of the lodge. sounds like a "secret society" to me if even its own members cant trust "secrets" with other members. what sort of "secrets" are being kept? not spiritual "secrets" of course. A Brit. Stephen K. Knight wrote a book about "Jack the Ripper" who committed murders according to Masonic punishments to "secret" breakers. and the ensueing coverup by Masonic policemen who didn't want any connection between the murders and the Masonic lodge. Another book of his "The Brotherhood" is also an interesting read. particularly because Knight takes a neutral stance on Masonry without the Christian bashing. More reasons why i dont trust the Brotherhood: Albert Pike, a racist pig who fled to Canada after Abhraham lincoln was shot so he couldn't be tied to what his name that shot him. His statue stands in DC without nary a peep from the NAACP. strange The Klu Klux Clan (Knights of the Golden Circle) itself wich is built similar to Freemasonry and founded my members of the Brotherhood. The defunct Illumunati. Luciferians who worshipped Lucifer as an angel of light (a concept consistant with Pike's work) and Global in view. To George Washingtons credit who is a Freemason spoke out against the Illumunati and its aims. apparently the Illumunati were a deranged offshoot. Founding of todays banking system. I consider the International Banking elite to be Global in scope and a threat to soverignty of this nation. This is why i perceive higher degree masons to be leftists. having destroyed our Federal Reserve by placing it into the hands of foreingers. The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds are both Masons. Freemasonry, although not a religion is beset by a multitude of pagan symbolism. just look in Albert G. Mackey's "Ecyclopedia of Freemasonry" for examples. this certainly lends it to a "New Age" motiff that could lead one to perceive them as spiritual in outlook. Both Jehovah's witness and Mormanism were founded by former Freemasons. conributing to christian cults. The founder of Mormanism is "against" Masonry; in Mormanism is some ideals taken from the Brotherhood. Freemasonry and Theosophy have seemed to go hand in hand. Theosophy was founded by Madame Helena Blavtsky who was an anti-semitc whore and supported what Hitler did to the jews. Theosophy today is just New age feel good spirituality, but considering who founded it. i wouldn't trust it. Having said the above i must also say that Freemasons are very much often misunderstood and are more varied in opinion and outlook then its detractors whould have others to beleive. JOHBULON Lib [:D] [:D]
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