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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:08:21 PM EDT
[#1]
One of the greatest criticisms of Masonry is that it accepts all religions
as being equal. This statement is true only in part Masonic affiliation requires that a member acknowledge a belief in a higher power. Whether that belief is of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim or other faith is not relevant. We as an organization do not judge one religion to be superior or inferior to another, in fact the subject of religion itself is strictly prohibited within the lodge. It seems quite a contradiction to me that Masonry is accused of being a religion, yet the organization itself prohibits the very subject from being addressed. This is not to say that Masons are not encouraged to fully practice their faith daily. In fact, it is a tenant of our brotherhood that our time should be divided equally between faith, family and service to mankind; our professional obligations and the requisite rest that will allow us to continue in our responsibilities. People often ask how I can look at people of other faiths and accept their beliefs without compromising my own faith. This is in truth a fair question. The answer itself is rather straightforward, I do not accept the other person's faith if different than my own, I do however respect his faith if its teachings include loving and helping your fellow man and living a moral life. The fact is the world has three major faiths, Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The birthplace of all three is in the Middle East, and these faiths are so intimately intertwined that none could exist without the other. When someone understands the history of the region and the roots of these religions they will see a deep commonality. My faith teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, part of the Holy Trinity and the Savior of all those who embrace him. The Muslim and Jewish faiths view him as a great prophet. I could never embrace the faith of my Jewish or Muslim brothers, but I can respect the commonality we share. The fact is, that the prohibition of religion within the lodge promotes the goals of all of these faiths by fostering acceptance where differences are found. One need only look to the tragic events of September 11 and the religious services held at Saint Patrick's in New York City and the National Cathedral in Washington. On the dais were leaders of several Christian faiths (including Catholicism), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et cetera. The message that they all shared was that we need to put aside our personal and religious differences and focus on what we have in common and work together to build a better world in which terrorism and evil can not exist unchecked or exploit the differences of our faith, nationality or ethnicity. In my mind this was a noble goal, and the only shame is that it took a tragic event to bring it about. Masonry has been embracing this message and philosophy for centuries. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:09:41 PM EDT
[#2]
How is it different that religious leaders from these multitude of faiths
offered prayers to "the Almighty," "the Heavenly Father," "Lord of All," et cetera and it was not viewed as an abomination, while people of differing faiths gathered in lodge offering a non-denominational prayer that they know in their hearts is directed to their personal God is viewed as a breach of faith? Does the Muslim in lodge find himself suddenly praying to God instead of Allah? Does the Jew suddenly offer prayers to Christ? Does the Christian adopt the Jewish faith and renounce Christ? Of course not! The words of the prayer are chosen so as not to offend anyone and the devotion of each brother is known in their heart, the true repository of faith. It might prove interesting for many of Masonry's detractors to know that Masonry has been able to bridge the deepest of chasms in history, including bringing combatants to a cessation of hostilities for the purpose of a lodge meeting. During the Revolutionary War, British and Colonial soldiers would attend my lodge together - leaving their weapons outside the lodge room and traveling in peace. German soldiers during World War II often showed greater compassion to allied prisoners who they knew to be Masons. True, that compassion should have been extended to everyone, but in times of war people act in ways contrary to their upbringing and moral norms. The Masonic affiliation of the prisoners however was able to remind the German soldiers of their obligation to treat their fellow man with respect and compassion. How many of our soldiers were spared death or torture because of the shared bond between them and their nation's enemy? As mentioned previously, there exists a long standing animosity between the Roman Catholic Church and Freemasonry. The roots of this animosity extend back to the days preceding the Crusades when the church supported several military orders to protect trade routes and the bands of pilgrims making trips from Europe to the Holy Land. One of these bands was known as the Poor Knights of King Solomon's Temple, or the Knights Templar. This order was at first small, numbering approximately one dozen knights, who spent most of their time excavating the ruins of King Solomon's Temple. What they found is the subject of much speculation, but given the Church's reaction, it was significant. In a matter of little time, the Templars found their influence, prestige and sheer power increasing exponentially. Soon the Templars were granted powers normally reserved only for kings and religious orders, such as the power to levy taxes and ordain priests. The Templars were essentially warrior monks who led a pious and austere life. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:10:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Despite the self-imposed austerity of their lives, the order itself became
immensely wealthy through the creation of the first international banking system as well as the accumulation of land and treasure through military campaigns. This wealth became a source of contention between the order and the Church/France. I say Church/France because at the time of the downfall of the Templars, the Pope was essentially a puppet of the French throne. King Phillip the Fair convinced Pope Clement that he needed to bring the Templars down because they were a threat to him, as well as the fact that the Vatican's and France's coffers were essentially depleted, while the Templars were flush with wealth. The Vatican summoned the Templars and their Grand Master Jean Jacques DeMolay to return to France. The Templars set sail with much of their treasure in tow, having abandoned many of their fortifications in the Holy Land. Upon arriving, DeMolay was summoned to see the Pope. DeMolay knew he would be betrayed, but went freely to his own imprisonment and death. At the same time, the Pope and King ordered all Templars taken into custody and charged with a myriad of crimes. None with any basis. While many knights were taken into custody, a small contingent managed to escape by sea taking with them the "great treasure of the Templars." When the kings accountants audited the Templars wealth, they didn't find anything missing. So what was this great treasure that the Templars escaped with? Nobody knows for sure, but there is reason to believe it may have been either the Holy Grail of legend, the Ark of the Covenant (much anecdotal evidence supports this) or holy writings from the libraries of King Solomon's Temple which might have threatened the Church. In any event, the treasure was considered to be of such value that the Templars fled with it rather than material wealth, and left behind their Grand Master rather than risk capture trying to save him and allowing the treasure to fall into the wrong hands. The Templars escaped to Scotland and were given sanctuary by Robert the Bruce. Several Templars also escaped to Switzerland and became part of the aristocracy and founded what has become the modern Swiss banking system. The treasure of the Templars was never seen again and is rumored to still be under the protection of a remnant of the Templars that has survived nearly seven centuries. Whether this is true or not I can not say, only speculate. Freemasonry was developed as a means for the Templars to continue their work in a public that would alienate and attempt to eliminate them. The roots of Freemasonry themselves can be found in the trade guilds of the cathedral builders, well known to this military and religious order. In time these guilds admitted men who were not practicing masons, but what has become known as speculative masons. In time, the speculative masons within the guilds outnumbered and replaced the practicing or operative masons. The guild system itself allowed for the free movement of its members across national borders and an organizational structure that would provide some secrecy and protection from the Church which still desired to suppress the Templars. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:17:56 PM EDT
[#4]
The hostility from the Catholic church exists to this day, but less
overtly. There was/is a great deal of confusion as to whether a Catholic may be both a Mason and in good standing with the Church. The Vatican's written policies dropped Masonry from the rolls of organizations who threaten the Church, but there is a ruling from a council of bishops that states membership is still forbidden. From what I have read, the Pope gave his support, making it Church policy. Interestingly enough the penalty of excommunication is no longer in effect to those who are Masons and pose no threat to the Church. Instead they are considered to be living in a state of sin and are not supposed to receive communion. Those who are not Catholics might be interested in knowing that this is akin to one's status in the Church if they were to divorce. I don't know any Catholic priest who truly feels that a person is bound for hell simply because they are divorced. That however is a separate and distinct philosophical debate. From everything I have learned studying Catholic theology, a Catholic is not in mortal peril by simply being a Mason. In fact, the Church has attempted to have its cake and eat it too by saying a Mason can be in good graces with the Church and remain a Mason if his sole association with the lodge is the paying of dues and he does not attend meetings. The implication being that the philosophy of Masonry is not sinful, but the practice of attending lodge itself is. Curiously, I am willing to bet that none of those who devised this policy were ever Masons and could thus attest to what happens during a meeting. If they were, they would know there is nothing nefarious in a lodge's activities. The Church also acknowledges that much of its hostility toward Masonry stems from what they term "Elite European" Masonry, and not Masonry in America. I can not attest to what occurs in European lodges as there is no set format of Masonry, it differs country by country and state by state. Masonry in Albany, NY is not the same as Masonry in Bonn, Germany. Yes, we share many of the same underlying beliefs, it is however the application of those beliefs as practices where differences are found. Even within the United States the Catholic Church finds much to disagree with in terms of the Southern District of the Scottish Rite which they feel is virulently anti-Catholic and racist, but as we know Blue Lodge is not the same as Scottish Rite, nor is Scottish Rite in the Northern District the same as the Southern District. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:19:09 PM EDT
[#5]
If the Southern District is as described by the Catholic Church I too would
find it more than disagreeable, and I am a Mason. We must take care not to brush with too broad of strokes and paint Masonry as some type of mindless cult where individuals can not make their own decisions. There are good and bad Masons, as in any organization, including the Catholic Church. This however does not imply that all members are equally guilty of wrong doing simply by association. Would it be fair to brand all Catholic priests as pedophiles? Of course not! It would be equally unfair to accuse all Masons of being anti-Catholic or racist, much less accuse the organization of being institutionally so inclined. I find it most disturbing that the greatest critic of Masonry is not the Catholic church, but the fundamentalist Christian movement, or more appropriately certain segments thereof. These people believe that anyone who does not view the world as they do will burn in hell. This belief seems to apply exceptionally so to Catholics and Masons, thus I am doubly damned in their eyes. Perhaps two negatives equal a positive and thus I am assured of going to heaven after all. But to the fundamentalist anti-Catholic/Mason I am the embodiment of evil because I follow Jesus's teaching to love my neighbor, no matter their skin color, race, nationality, sex or religion. However, they feel that they stand in greater grace with God because they denounce those who do not agree with them rather than attempting to respect their right to believe what they do even if they can not embrace it themselves. If this is how they wish to live their life, I wish them well and do not wish for them to join Masonry, for it would truly be a horrible torture indeed to force someone to confront their own bigotry. As Jesus would say, turn and offer them your other cheek Michael, and thus I do. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 3:58:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Very nice post...
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Posted: 2/12/2002 4:05:06 PM EDT
[#7]
I thought the problem between the Church and the Masons went back to the Crusades and the Inquisition. Sorry if you talked about this in your posts, I didn't read all of it.
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Posted: 2/12/2002 5:55:29 PM EDT
[#8]
The Templars along with the Hospitlars were active on behalf of the Church in the Crusades, that was one of the ways they grew in power and holdings.
The Inquisition was the tool used by Clement to discredit the Templars and sieze their assets, in fact they faced a combined total of 127 charges by the Inquisition. |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 6:50:45 PM EDT
[#9]
That's all well and good, but it still doesn't explain the orgy scene in [I]Eyes Wide Shut.[/I]
[devil] Just kidding, thanks for explaining all that. [:D] |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 8:35:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Those who are not Catholics might be interested in knowing that this is akin to one's status in the Church if they were to divorce. [b]100% incorrect[/b]. This is one of the most common misunderstandings about the Catholic stance on divorce. Simply being divorced does not mean a person has committed mortal sin (thus is not to receive the Body of Christ in the Eucharist). Divorcing and remarrying outside the Church (for those who are Catholic) bars one from receiving communion, as it is seen as adultery (another mortal sin). At least present Catholic teachings correctly. The rest of your posts sound almost exactly like Freemason websites I've looked at. What is your source for all of this, especially the Knights Templar stuff? Pope Clement V didn't seize the Templars assets. They were transferred to the Order of Hospitalers, not the Vatican. Pope Nicholas IV had already been considering merging the two orders (12 years before Clement V became pope) due to rivalry between the two orders. Clement was a weak pope who was easily deceived, and Philip the "fair" took advantage of that. Check out [url]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm[/url] |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 8:52:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cement.
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Posted: 2/12/2002 9:00:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: That's all well and good, but it still doesn't explain the orgy scene in [I]Eyes Wide Shut.[/I] [devil] Just kidding, thanks for explaining all that. [:D] That was The Masons'? |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 9:19:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cement. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:56:52 AM EDT
[#14]
loony, my apologies on the marriage confusion. I was thinking back to my father and his divorce from my mother. He sought, and received, an annulment so that he could remarry in the church. I know one of the driving factors was his desire to be able to receive communion. I should have more fully explained the restrictions. I got on a roll writing and didn't proof it well enough.
From my recollection the Hospitlars received the holdings of the Templars, read military fortifications. The treasure, read gold and other valuables, was used to replenish the coffers of the Vatican and France. As for my source on the Templars, Edward Burman's "The Templars, Knights of God." |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:06:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: loony, my apologies on the marriage confusion. I was thinking back to my father and his divorce from my mother. He sought, and received, an annulment so that he could remarry in the church. I never understood this... what happens to the status of the kids if a many-years-long marriage is "annulled"? Does that make you guys somehow illegitimate? Seriously, how does the catholic church justify this practice, as it just sounds like a legalistic "game" to get around the prohibition against divorce? |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:15:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God
And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:22:12 AM EDT
[#17]
HiramRanger,
As an Entered Apprentice, I thank you. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:29:43 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course According to your definition, then so would Judaism and every other world religion. Am I right? |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:49:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course According to your definition, then so would Judaism and every other world religion. Am I right? Not to mention Alcoholics Anonymous, the American Legion, the local schoolboard, the kosher butcher shop, and Red Green's Possum Lodge. NONE of THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE fundamentalist Christian organizations, and yet they all seem to have prayers and other religious observances. Burn the WITCH! Burn the WITCH! Burn the WITCH! Boy, _I_ feel better. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 7:14:22 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Does "Masonry" confess that there is but One True God ..the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in mans place that He (Jesus) was crucified -died and was burried -descended into Hell -and rose from the dead according to the Bible and that He is the [b]only[/b]way man can be reconcilled to God And that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way man can be saved and spend eternal life in Heaven? If so then I have no problem with it..as long as no other God but the afore mentioned is worship or deified even if its all just "pretend"...if not then Masonry despite protestations meets the definition of a pagan religion IMO of course Your opinion would seem to be mistaken, given that the very DEFINITION of a pagan religion is: "One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion." Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe in the divinity of Jesus. If you mean to say that no other religion is CORRECT, that's your opinion and a legitimate one to hold. But you can't redefine words to suit your beliefs...words have meaning. Changing the meaning is something the PC liberal deconstructionist crowd does. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 1:06:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I never understood this... what happens to the status of the kids if a many-years-long marriage is "annulled"? Does that make you guys somehow illegitimate? Seriously, how does the catholic church justify this practice, as it just sounds like a legalistic "game" to get around the prohibition against divorce? Very good question. It's not a game at all. The Catholic Church views matrimony as a sacrament, which the civil authority has no jurisdiction over (and quite frankly, doesn't care about). Il/legitimate children is the concern of civil law, not the sacrament. When one enters into the Sacrament of Matrimony, it is "til death do us part." Even if a civil divorce is granted, in the eyes of God the two are still married ("Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." Luke 16:18). What the anullment process does is investigate to determine if a [i]sacrament[/i] existed at the time that the couple exchanged vows. That the couple loved each other at the time they exchanged vows isn't questioned. The Church can't change the status of a person's marriage, only determine what that status actually is. Certain criteria must be met for the marriage to be a sacrament: both parties must be free to marry (nothing impeding them either in natural or church law--marrying 1st cousin, previous sacramental marriage, no coercion, etc.) and freely and knowingly consent to marry as the Church sees it. For a Catholic, the marriage must be witnessed by a priest or deacon and two witnesses. During the annullment process, the marriage is examined to see if one of the necessary elements was missing when they married (e.g. the couple at the time they married intended to [i]never[/i] have kids, they didn't know what they were doing because they didn't understand/agree with the Catholic view on marriage, he married his cousin, etc.). If these elements were missing, then the sacrament never took place to begin with, and they are free to marry. [i]However,[/i] not every annullment proceeding receives a "declaration of nullity," which is the exact term. To use Hiram's dad as an example (hope you don't mind!), if the investigation had found that his first marriage had indeed been a [i]sacramental[/i] marriage, then he would not have been free to marry again. As it is, the investigation discovered that his first marriage was not a sacrament, thus he was free to marry in the Church. If it was just a legalistic way around divorce, then everyone would get a declaration of nullity if they wanted, which isn't the case. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:16:40 PM EDT
[#22]
loony, no problem at all. I wish I knew more about the specifics of my parents divorce and annulment, but I was 11 when it happened. From what I have learned, mostly through my grandparents, is that my mother was not a Catholic when they married and my father requested that the bishop in Syracuse at the time seek a dispensation from Rome for my parents to marry in the church. I believe my mother was supposed to convert, but she never did. She did attend mass with my father, sister and I, but she remained an Episcopalean.
When the marriage fell apart they divorced. The annulment occurred years later and itself took quite awhile to obtain. I remember having to meet with a group of priests and the bishop who asked me all kinds of questions about my parents marriage and our faith practices. My sister was not interviewed because she was far too young. The Church eventually granted my father's request. I'm not sure what the grounds were, but perhaps they were that the marriage was entered into under false pretense, that my mother would convert and never did. I don't know, maybe one of these days I'll ask. |
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Posted: 2/13/2002 4:21:27 PM EDT
[#23]
I agree with HiramRanger as a whole. But i dont trust the "Brother Hood". Its members in the higher degrees tend to be leftists. not to mention that those in the higher degrees hide the meanings of its rituals from the lower degrees (1-3).
Please dont think this a flame HiramRanger as i know for a fact that Masons are regular people. My own grandfather is a Mason and so is my Gunsmith. However i find i can not trust the "Brother Hood". "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike (a KKK member) left me with a very negative impression of Masonry. True that Masonry is not a religion per see, but has all of the trapping of one in that it deals with the supernatural which is evident in its rituals and motiff. The Masonic lodge is not like a Moose lodge in which members just meet to play Bingo. There are even punishments for members who expose "secrets" of the lodge. sounds like a "secret society" to me if even its own members cant trust "secrets" with other members. what sort of "secrets" are being kept? not spiritual "secrets" of course. A Brit. Stephen K. Knight wrote a book about "Jack the Ripper" who committed murders according to Masonic punishments to "secret" breakers. and the ensueing coverup by Masonic policemen who didn't want any connection between the murders and the Masonic lodge. Another book of his "The Brotherhood" is also an interesting read. particularly because Knight takes a neutral stance on Masonry without the Christian bashing. More reasons why i dont trust the Brotherhood: Albert Pike, a racist pig who fled to Canada after Abhraham lincoln was shot so he couldn't be tied to what his name that shot him. His statue stands in DC without nary a peep from the NAACP. strange The Klu Klux Clan (Knights of the Golden Circle) itself wich is built similar to Freemasonry and founded my members of the Brotherhood. The defunct Illumunati. Luciferians who worshipped Lucifer as an angel of light (a concept consistant with Pike's work) and Global in view. To George Washingtons credit who is a Freemason spoke out against the Illumunati and its aims. apparently the Illumunati were a deranged offshoot. Founding of todays banking system. I consider the International Banking elite to be Global in scope and a threat to soverignty of this nation. This is why i perceive higher degree masons to be leftists. having destroyed our Federal Reserve by placing it into the hands of foreingers. The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds are both Masons. Freemasonry, although not a religion is beset by a multitude of pagan symbolism. just look in Albert G. Mackey's "Ecyclopedia of Freemasonry" for examples. this certainly lends it to a "New Age" motiff that could lead one to perceive them as spiritual in outlook. Both Jehovah's witness and Mormanism were founded by former Freemasons. conributing to christian cults. The founder of Mormanism is "against" Masonry; in Mormanism is some ideals taken from the Brotherhood. Freemasonry and Theosophy have seemed to go hand in hand. Theosophy was founded by Madame Helena Blavtsky who was an anti-semitc whore and supported what Hitler did to the jews. Theosophy today is just New age feel good spirituality, but considering who founded it. i wouldn't trust it. Having said the above i must also say that Freemasons are very much often misunderstood and are more varied in opinion and outlook then its detractors whould have others to beleive. JOHBULON Lib [:D] [:D] |
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