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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:14:39 AM EDT
I haven't seen this in a few years. Still great.

Verbally layin some hate to IPs
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:20:53 AM EDT
[#1]
so did it work like a good shaming would in Western culture by motivating them to excel, or did these Mesopotamian tribesmen merely sulk and nurse their grievance?
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:28:41 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
so did it work like a good shaming would in Western culture by motivating them to excel, or did these Mesopotamian tribesmen merely sulk and nurse their grievance?
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They likely fed intel to the bad guys to even the score

Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:29:21 AM EDT
[#3]
that speech inspired them to go fuck their goats later

great work
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:30:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Nah, they probably went back, smoked some hash, drank some chai, gave intel to the terrorists, falsified the payroll, and fucked their chai boys/goats.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:32:51 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew.
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can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq?
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:35:17 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq?
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I think he is saying that the Iraqi police always knew when s*** was going to hit the fan because they were coinciding with the Enemy and they would wear specific uniforms to signify a specific message
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:38:52 AM EDT
[#7]
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 2:38:18 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq?
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Edit: As an aside, how the IA and IP were dressed was a pretty reliable visual indicator of whether or not we were going to have contact on a particular mission. They always knew.
can you explain for those of us who weren't in Iraq?
To make a long story short; if they were chilling out in short-sleeves, beret, coolers and folding chairs out around checkpoints and roadside defensive positions - it was going to be smooth sailing. If they were wearing all their battle-rattle (helmets, vests, etc) and generally looking lively - we knew there was going to be trouble.

I'm not saying, as a fact, that they were involved but it appeared to me that they at least knew what was in the area and never shared this intel with us.

All I can say is that the above was 100% accurate every-time we left the gate. I never trusted a single one of them and I hated being around them on dismounts.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 2:53:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I haven't seen this in a few years. Still great.

Verbally layin some hate to IPs
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2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:19:14 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now.
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I haven't seen this in a few years. Still great.

Verbally layin some hate to IPs


2010, probably more than half of those police are dead from bombings now.
...or killed by their co-workers
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:27:48 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:31:48 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:34:29 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:42:44 PM EDT
[#14]
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
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So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:45:29 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
Don't be a fucking pussy.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:48:01 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
I remember the exact day when the Abrams and the Bradleys came inside the FOB from their last patrols... because they were too aggressive and scary
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:49:45 PM EDT
[#17]
never get tired of this video.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:51:25 PM EDT
[#18]
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I remember the exact day when the Abrams and the Bradleys came inside the FOB from their last patrols... because they were too aggressive and scary
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
I remember the exact day when the Abrams and the Bradleys came inside the FOB from their last patrols... because they were too aggressive and scary
Yellow and pink road wheels were floated around for a while...
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:53:37 PM EDT
[#19]
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So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
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Quoted:


Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
I read a story about how US troops in the early days of either Iraq or Afghanistan built a soccer field, complete with goals, bleachers, and sod.  Once it was completed, locals snuck in at 0dark30 and stole everything -- the goalposts, the bleachers, even the sod.

Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?"  
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 10:01:08 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
I read a story about how US troops in the early days of either Iraq or Afghanistan built a soccer field, complete with goals, bleachers, and sod.  Once it was completed, locals snuck in at 0dark30 and stole everything -- the goalposts, the bleachers, even the sod.

Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?"  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
I read a story about how US troops in the early days of either Iraq or Afghanistan built a soccer field, complete with goals, bleachers, and sod.  Once it was completed, locals snuck in at 0dark30 and stole everything -- the goalposts, the bleachers, even the sod.

Reporter quoted a US soldier as saying, "JFC, they even stole the fucking grass and the DIRT! THE DIRT! What the FUCK kind of people do that?"  
The only place I saw grassy lawns was North of checkpoint 5, where the Kurds were. Nice tidy homes and very little litter. It was obvious that they actually gave a shit about their country.

Maybe a grassy lawn was a novelty to the savages?
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 10:05:43 PM EDT
[#21]
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The only place I saw grassy lawns was North of checkpoint 5, where the Kurds were. Nice tidy homes and very little litter. It was obvious that they actually gave a shit about their country.

Maybe a grassy lawn was a novelty to the savages?
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The Kurds are the good guys, as much as any particular group in that fucked-up wasteland can be.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:36:44 AM EDT
[#22]
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We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
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That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
No, when we left in 2011 the Iraqi military was perfectly trained and equipped to deal with external and internal threats, right? That's why we are back.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:39:40 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. I spent 13 months in Iraq training and advising their military, like this stupid asshole was supposed to be doing.

Fortunately I received much better training than he did, and was actually successful at my mission. So much, in fact, that they shut down our unit a year after I left, because the Iraqis were able to operate with no need of further assistance.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:43:37 AM EDT
[#24]
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That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:52:30 AM EDT
[#25]
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
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"People"
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:02:46 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
View Quote
What needed to be done but wasn't? Which bad guys didn't we kill?

Fyi, I wasn't in air force,  was infantry squad leader with 24 months in Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:03:22 AM EDT
[#27]
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Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though.
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though.
It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:15:38 AM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies.
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Where has this worked when Islam was the ethos?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:18:46 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:25:27 AM EDT
[#30]
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Yeah if only we were nicer we would win wars. Im sure we just really close to winning their muslim hearts and minds though.
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Which Muslims minds were we trying to win and why? What was the point of US troops in Iraq after Saddam was captured? Who was running Iraq and what was national policy for US forces from day one of occupation that never ended.

TRANSITION

Everything we did from 2003 onwards was designed around the goal of securing the country enough for a smooth transition to self rule of a "friendly" parliamentary govt.

Everything we did or were supposed to do worked off that strategic and political end goal. So all tactics and operations are geared toward that.

Now tell me, considering everything we were doing was to hand over a peaceful nation to our Iraqi allies, what do you think we should have done?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:32:15 AM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
Where has this worked when Islam was the ethos?
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Quoted:


It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies.
Where has this worked when Islam was the ethos?
If i know someone's background i can create a method i can use to mindfuck them to compliance. But in the same vein that i wouldn't treat YOU as an Iraqi is treated (you won't like it), the same works for them.

There are a thousand and one ways to play operant conditioning to mindfuck someone but they only work if you know how that person thinks. The MP insulting the Iraqis didnt, he didn't have a fucking clue how an Arab mind works,  so while it appears to be a good ass chewing it would have backfired. The only positive is one American NCO got to get shit off his chest at the expense of turning that IP unit completely against his unit and making them enemies. In war you strive not to make your enemy stronger through your efforts,  but weaker.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:37:33 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:


Which Muslims minds were we trying to win and why? What was the point of US troops in Iraq after Saddam was captured? Who was running Iraq and what was national policy for US forces from day one of occupation that never ended.

TRANSITION

Everything we did from 2003 onwards was designed around the goal of securing the country enough for a smooth transition to self rule of a "friendly" parliamentary govt.

Everything we did or were supposed to do worked off that strategic and political end goal. So all tactics and operations are geared toward that.

Now tell me, considering everything we were doing was to hand over a peaceful nation to our Iraqi allies, what do you think we should have done?
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You tell me. The idea, probably borne in some neocon thinktank inside the beltway populated by ivy league morons, that we were going to install something resembling a stable republic in either Iraq or Afghanistan is laughable and tragic on its face.

US national security, which is the only thing I care about vis a vis the ridiculously named and conceived war on on a tactic called "terror" does not depend on either making everyone like us, or making everyone more like us.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 2:51:32 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:


You tell me. The idea, probably borne in some neocon thinktank inside the beltway populated by ivy league morons, that we were going to install something resembling a stable republic in either Iraq or Afghanistan is laughable and tragic on its face.

US national security, which is the only thing I care about vis a vis the ridiculously named and conceived war on on a tactic called "terror" does not depend on either making every like us, or making every more like us.
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Replacing national policy to isolationist strategy is accomplished once every four years by voting new president. After that you Charlie Mike. You stay in your lane and try to do the best you possibly can. Duty is a fickle bitch, the nature is it that you might not like what you have to do but you do it anyways because DUTY.

Your advice and contribution doesn't help the ignorant MP NCO unfuck himself because you are avoiding reality in lieu of "I wish" land, which shares a border with "If I were in charge"-stan.

That NCO needed remedial training, not encouragement.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 8:22:45 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:


Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
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THIS!  Treating 7th-Century Mesopotamian tribesmen like they are 21st Century corn-fed Iowa football-playing farmboys simply does not work.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 8:25:12 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:


We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
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Link Posted: 8/17/2017 8:48:18 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
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Why? By pretending that by training barbaric muslim men (who were majority the product of inbreeding because of cultural traditions) to fight other barbaric muslim men that we would accomplish something?

We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan.

Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention.

Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad.









High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad.





Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad.



Civil War? Firing Squad

Link Posted: 8/17/2017 8:57:47 AM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
Why? By pretending that by training barbaric muslim men (who were majority the product of inbreeding because of cultural traditions) to fight other barbaric muslim men that we would accomplish something?

We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan.

Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention.

Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad.

https://i0.wp.com/rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/german_commandos_american_uniform_small.jpg?resize=350%2C200

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wNo7X8hNTik/hqdefault.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/458267-4/123_002

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/47/fc/1b47fc61cfb1164f0325450f58558b80.jpg

High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/4c/8f/964c8fcca105cfd45294a2e14589f01a--excited-face-german-army.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pfqPrhA6VZw/UwEeoM80NwI/AAAAAAAAIrw/j4tAo2Kt7xE/s1600/German+General+Anton+Dostler+is+tied+to+a+sta­ke+before+his+execution+by+a+firing+squad,+It­aly,+1945.jpg

Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e5/1e/42/e51e4287eb53c323d88b44ac549285f2.jpg
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Quoted:
That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Why? By pretending that by training barbaric muslim men (who were majority the product of inbreeding because of cultural traditions) to fight other barbaric muslim men that we would accomplish something?

We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan.

Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention.

Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad.

https://i0.wp.com/rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/german_commandos_american_uniform_small.jpg?resize=350%2C200

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wNo7X8hNTik/hqdefault.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/458267-4/123_002

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/47/fc/1b47fc61cfb1164f0325450f58558b80.jpg

High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/4c/8f/964c8fcca105cfd45294a2e14589f01a--excited-face-german-army.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pfqPrhA6VZw/UwEeoM80NwI/AAAAAAAAIrw/j4tAo2Kt7xE/s1600/German+General+Anton+Dostler+is+tied+to+a+sta­ke+before+his+execution+by+a+firing+squad,+It­aly,+1945.jpg

Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e5/1e/42/e51e4287eb53c323d88b44ac549285f2.jpg
Hell yeah! We sure showed those Japanese and Germans what was up. Stabilized those countries and got the fuck out of there amirite!
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 9:45:07 AM EDT
[#38]
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We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
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That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
Where do you normally get your news?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 10:29:23 AM EDT
[#39]
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Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
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All valid points. He knew it was a waste of time and was blowing off some steam and intimidating and shaming the enemy (likely +/- 50% of that crowd) more than anything.

As you mentioned, whomever drew up that security apparatus and thought it had any chance in hell of it working was an imbecile or just threw his hands up and executed the easiest plan once they ran out of time and had to do something.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 10:31:35 AM EDT
[#40]
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THIS!  Treating 7th-Century Mesopotamian tribesmen like they are 21st Century corn-fed Iowa football-playing farmboys simply does not work.
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When it came to security, nothing worked other than paying them off to keep shit quiet.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 10:48:20 AM EDT
[#41]
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THIS!  Treating 7th-Century Mesopotamian tribesmen like they are 21st Century corn-fed Iowa football-playing farmboys simply does not work.
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Exactly.  Iraqis dont know who Vince Lombardi and never played organized sports. You'd probably have better results not yelling at all, just have a senior officer tell them "I'm disappointed in your performance," then he sends his SGT to grab one dude that is known as the worst, beat the shit out of him with a cane and then blow his brains out in front of everyone with a pistol,  then CO tells the rest "I hope we don't need to have  this conversation again." They'll get that because that's what their culture is used to. Targeted terror instead of  mass berating. Culture...

I've shown videos of USMC bootcamp to Brit and Aussie soldiers before, they laugh at the screaming because that's not how they do it, their DS/DI yell less still get shit done (think like Color Sergeant Bourne in Zulu). Meanwhile a Korean or Russian soldier would watch USMC video and say "why aren't they hitting the men?" Because culture...
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 10:56:37 AM EDT
[#42]
A long time ago I remember seeing a video that was probably posted here on GD about an Army or Marine dude who took home a hot Iraqi wife.
She barely spoke English, barely knew how to cook, didn't know how to operate a vacuum cleaner as in she didn't even know what a vacuum cleaner was, had an entitled attitude for just about everything and everything was an offense to her pride, and blamed all of her problems on the Jews.
Basically, a real winner here.

I don't know if they lived happily ever after, but the moral of the story is know your enemy. Then you know their weaknesses and strengths and how to use them to your favor.
That NCO didn't and didn't particularly care to, just like that stupid idiot who married that Iraqi woman and here we are...
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 10:59:45 AM EDT
[#43]
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Hell yeah! We sure showed those Japanese and Germans what was up. Stabilized those countries and got the fuck out of there amirite!
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I know you arent suggesting that we could achieve similar results in Iraq and Afghanistan if we didnt "suck at COIN" amirite?

This thread is about arguing the correct tactic to implement a failed strategy.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:02:31 AM EDT
[#44]
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Why? By pretending that by training barbaric muslim men (who were majority the product of inbreeding because of cultural traditions) to fight other barbaric muslim men that we would accomplish something?

We should have done what the 'greatest generation' did to Germany and Japan.

Mass executions of the enemy -- it tends to get peoples attention.

Come in contact with a non-uniformed enemy combatant? Firing squad.

https://i0.wp.com/rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/german_commandos_american_uniform_small.jpg?resize=350%2C200

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wNo7X8hNTik/hqdefault.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/458267-4/123_002

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/47/fc/1b47fc61cfb1164f0325450f58558b80.jpg

High ranking enemy officer? Firing squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/4c/8f/964c8fcca105cfd45294a2e14589f01a--excited-face-german-army.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pfqPrhA6VZw/UwEeoM80NwI/AAAAAAAAIrw/j4tAo2Kt7xE/s1600/German+General+Anton+Dostler+is+tied+to+a+sta­ke+before+his+execution+by+a+firing+squad,+It­aly,+1945.jpg

Oh, you are in the Philippines and encounter the enemy? Firing Squad.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e5/1e/42/e51e4287eb53c323d88b44ac549285f2.jpg

Civil War? Firing Squad

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/illustration-of-a-deserter-being-executed-by-a-firing-squad-at-the-picture-id106416800?s=612x612
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We only executed those Germans and Japanese who committed war crimes ee had evidence of. We weren't executing people during the occupation because it never called for it (and because no real insurgency existed).

That could work in certain circumstances in Iraq, we should have emptied the prisons of hard core insurgents through mass executions instead of leaving them to get released or break out to join ISIS later on. But that is only useful after you catch them doing something dirty, not before.

However the war was already hugely unpopular within the US and worldwide. No US would allow summary execution or mass executions following quick trials because they'd rightly worry about impeachment, war crime charges,  the total destruction of their political career.

A much simpler fix is to disregard existing rank and MTOE of deploying units and simply relieve for cause all "leaders" who don't get it,  replace them with smarter sibordinates who do get it, field promote them, suddenly you have officers and NCOs running shit who are acting like Lawrence of Arabia and not GySgt Hartman from FMJ. Then we still win and our CinC doesn't have to worry about building a legal defense team for possible future trial in The Hague
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:03:38 AM EDT
[#45]
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Exactly.  Iraqis dont know who Vince Lombardi and never played organized sports. You'd probably have better results not yelling at all, just have a senior officer tell them "I'm disappointed in your performance," then he sends his SGT to grab one dude that is known as the worst, beat the shit out of him with a cane and then blow his brains out in front of everyone with a pistol,  then CO tells the rest "I hope we don't need to have  this conversation again." They'll get that because that's what their culture is used to. Targeted terror instead of  mass berating. Culture...
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Youre not wrong, but now who is living in fantasy land. What a cluster.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:17:27 AM EDT
[#46]
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...or killed by their co-workers
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.....or by us when they were out playing with their insurgent pals.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:32:21 AM EDT
[#47]
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I know you arent suggesting that we could achieve similar results in Iraq and Afghanistan if we didnt "suck at COIN" amirite?

This thread is about arguing the correct tactic to implement a failed strategy.
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My point was we never left Germany or Japan.  

We suck a fat dick at COIN.  COIN isn't some optional "strategy" it's a fact of life when faced with a lethal insurgency.  You either counter the insurgency (COIN), or you leave.  We spent the first 3-4 years there accomplishing jack shit and getting our teeth kicked in by fucking peasants (and Iran).  We smartened up a little in small pockets, but never really got a good grasp on COIN, and then we left with the job half done, thanks to the shitty puppet presidents of both Iraq and the US.  The whole shitshow came crashing down, and now we are there again.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:42:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
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Here's what I take from your serious and welcome analysis. Iraqis (perhaps by extension all Arabs) are not motivated by shame. They are, however, motivated by fear, which I would posit is a Universal cultural motivator, so in that respect, they are just like us. They are also motivated by self interest which means they are just like everyone else.

From your experience, It would appear the US made a major mistake in staffing Iraqi police from local inhabitants, but bringing them in from other areas would also create issues. The basic ones would be housing and food, but perhaps tribal tensions would flare from bringing in Iraqis that would have police power over a different tribe...or even worse, bringing in Shias to police Sunnis.

Edit to add: You describe the police staffing problem, but what was the solution? My question to you: how would you have resolved the issue of traitorous/useless Iraqi Police? My personal opinion is there was no effective way to resolve the problem. I think foreigners would never be welcome in Iraq/Afghanistan, so cooperation would have its limits.

I wonder what you think of the essay,"Why Arabs Lose Wars"? I thought it was interesting and confirms Winston Churchills analysis of Arab culture.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 11:44:19 AM EDT
[#49]
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My point was we never left Germany or Japan.  
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My point was we never left Germany or Japan.  
I am not sure what point you are making.  Germany and Japan were conventional war, not COIN.  We did not stay there from 1945 to today to keep Germany and Japan from rebelling against our control or to maintain their government in the face of continued insurgency; we stayed there as forward bases against Soviet/Warsaw Pact aggression in Europe and against Soviet, CHinese, and North Korean aggression in the Far East.



We suck a fat dick at COIN.  COIN isn't some optional "strategy" it's a fact of life when faced with a lethal insurgency.  You either counter the insurgency (COIN), or you leave. We spent the first 3-4 years there accomplishing jack shit and getting our teeth kicked in by fucking peasants (and Iran).  We smartened up a little in small pockets, but never really got a good grasp on COIN, and then we left with the job half done, thanks to the shitty puppet presidents of both Iraq and the US.  The whole shitshow came crashing down, and now we are there again.
There is a third option:  Bellum Romanum.  Destroy all the infrastructure that supports the natives, kill all their men, enslave the women and children and ship THEM off to distant parts of the empire, then resettle with your own population.  The Romans and Mongols would approve.  The US won't do that, but it's the only thing that would work in an Arab/Islamic country like Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 12:51:24 PM EDT
[#50]
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Here's what I take from your serious and welcome analysis. Iraqis (perhaps by extension all Arabs) are not motivated by shame. They are, however, motivated by fear, which I would posit is a Universal cultural motivator, so in that respect, they are just like us. They are also motivated by self interest which means they are just like everyone else.

From your experience, It would appear the US made a major mistake in staffing Iraqi police from local inhabitants, but bringing them in from other areas would also create issues. The basic ones would be housing and food, but perhaps tribal tensions would flare from bringing in Iraqis that would have police power over a different tribe...or even worse, bringing in Shias to police Sunnis.

I wonder what you think of the essay,"Why Arabs Lose Wars"? I thought it was interesting and confirms Winston Churchills analysis of Arab culture.
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Having locals defend their own neighborhoods is a great idea. But it doesn't work if we're fucking them over by not supporting them properly, which is what was happening. US forces didn't have a real game plan for quelling the local Sunni insurgency inside a population center besides "kill people with guns". If we're not even making a dent, not doing fuck all to actually hurt the cells, then why would the local Iraqi police be motivated to risk all? They never started supporting us until we showed we were committed and even then it took a shared enemy (Al Qaeda in Iraq) before a lot of the Sunnis came over to ally with the US/

CPT Travis Patriquin: How to Win the War in Al Anbar  

This powerpoint slide show helped us win the war (until Obama threw it all away). In hindsight, the concept is utter simplicity and yet 95% of the US Army and Marine Corps were baffled by it, to them it was like rocket science and ancient greek.
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