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Posted: 9/14/2004 4:01:24 PM EST
And because of that nothing is taking off or landing from LAX or any other South West airport including Sky Harbor.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:05:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:06:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:08:14 PM EST by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Any explanation of why they are having an outage?



probably a telco or fiber optic line cut, all the RAG sites come into the ARTCC that way
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:06:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:07:45 PM EST
Not yet, it was just on Ch3 news here in PHX, they had their chopper over at Sky Harbor showing several airliners just on the tarmac, where they landed to take on fuel since they could not get into LA, San Diego, or Orange County.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:08:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:09:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:



+1.......
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:09:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:10:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Any explanation of why they are having an outage?



probably a telco or fiber optic line cut, all the RAG sites come in the the ARTCC that way



All they have is telephone, CH3's chopper talked to Sky Harbor tower and they told them that Palmdale has power, radar, and telephone but cannot talk to any aircraft. They have neither main nor backup radio communications. They are calling the Airlines and having their dispatchers text message their planes with instructions on where to go.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:11:01 PM EST
Can you say non-radar procedures - pucker factor approaching 10.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:13:57 PM EST
Planes are taking off right now. My dad is on his way to Hawaii and stoped over at LAX. He is staying at the Radisson at the airport and just told me they are flying again.
Burl1
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:15:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:15:39 PM EST by Pangea]
Y2K+4

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:15:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By BYU:
Can you say non-radar procedures - pucker factor approaching 10.



Thats why Sky Harbor is suddenly so crowded, no airliners are being allowed into Palmdales airspace to try and help that out. Las Vegas is getting similar traffic from westbound jets.

Trans Pacific are going to SFO

If you are going to or are waiting for anyone coming out of that region, you could have a long wait today.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:15:45 PM EST
Damn, this is just odd. Sounds like the opening script of a freaking Diehard movie or something. Anything like this happened before?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:16:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Any explanation of why they are having an outage?



probably a telco or fiber optic line cut, all the RAG sites come in the the ARTCC that way



Don't they have diversity in thier network, I mean having diverse routes has been standard practice for most all sensitive systems for a decade now?



On net yes. But last mile is completely dependent on the customer. You want protection, you pay for it. Most companies dont want to pony up to run 2 individual lines to the prem, so when a local area cut happens guess what? You go down. We have some systems that are *almost* disaster proof barring the building just falling right the hell down around you.

Now, for the record. I see more network outages due to the customers broke ass, cheap ass, busted ass shit then I do because of any telco issues.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:17:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By burl1:
Planes are taking off right now. My dad is on his way to Hawaii and stoped over at LAX. He is staying at the Radisson at the airport and just told me they are flying again.
Burl1



Well thats a relief.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:18:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:20:57 PM EST by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Any explanation of why they are having an outage?



probably a telco or fiber optic line cut, all the RAG sites come in the the ARTCC that way



Don't they have diversity in thier network, I mean having diverse routes has been standard practice for most all sensitive systems for a decade now?



yes there are redundant networks but the primary system is PC based & if it crashes
the backup system is limited in it's scope (number of freqs)

I have seen major problems though when Sprint or AT&T has a line cut (or other problem) outside the facility, never all the freqs though

if that does happen though the TRACON's should be able to range out their radar &
help take up some of the slack but there still limited by the range of the land based
VHF/UHF radio sites
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:19:06 PM EST
Another update from my dad. They had 11 minutes of power and both primary and back-up systems failed again.
Burl1
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:19:50 PM EST
Thank god! When I read the title of the thread, I thought it was a possible terrorist attack.

They need a lot more redundancy in their systems, apparently.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:19:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Now, for the record. I see more network outages due to the customers broke ass, cheap ass, busted ass shit then I do because of any telco issues.



quite possible, the FAA is cheap BUT all the Lockheed Martin hardware is about 5-6yrs old max
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:20:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By burl1:
Another update from my dad. They had 11 minutes of power and both primary and back-up systems failed again.
Burl1



After reading that i have to point you to my statement about the customers equipment....
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:21:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Now, for the record. I see more network outages due to the customers broke ass, cheap ass, busted ass shit then I do because of any telco issues.



quite possible, the FAA is cheap BUT all the Lockheed Martin hardware is about 5-6yrs old max



Whos there carrier? AT&T?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:23:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Damn, this is just odd. Sounds like the opening script of a freaking Diehard movie or something. Anything like this happened before?



Just a regular fubar? Still, Air Traffic monitoring has got to be one of the best ways to pick up on something going on (not just with planes, mind you) - if something happens, .gov can squash a story for the general public, but not for a bunch of planes running on fumes. - also you can pick up planes from a lot further than ground traffic, line of sight goes a fair piece from 35000 feet.



Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:25:06 PM EST
WTF is up with their backup radio system?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:25:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:29:02 PM EST by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Now, for the record. I see more network outages due to the customers broke ass, cheap ass, busted ass shit then I do because of any telco issues.



quite possible, the FAA is cheap BUT all the Lockheed Martin hardware is about 5-6yrs old max



Whos there carrier? AT&T?



I don't know if it varies by region but the FAA has used Sprint here at ZHU for several years,
it was AT&T before that
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:26:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 4:28:18 PM EST by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Damn, this is just odd. Sounds like the opening script of a freaking Diehard movie or something. Anything like this happened before?



Just a regular fubar? Still, Air Traffic monitoring has got to be one of the best ways to pick up on something going on (not just with planes, mind you) - if something happens, .gov can squash a story for the general public, but not for a bunch of planes running on fumes. - also you can pick up planes from a lot further than ground traffic,
line of sight goes a fair piece from 35000 feet.



about 250ish miles depending on the strength of the transmitter/receiver, the topography,
& weather conditions
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:28:50 PM EST
Good thing this is not a tango attack, or we'll be screwed. Just equipment failure. It has been reported on any of the nationwide or local news media outlets.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:30:11 PM EST
Oops spoke too soon.
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http://www.kfwb.com/content.asp?table1tabCount=6&table1tabOn=1&table2tabCount=6&table2tabOn=1&displayOption=&contentGUID={8B939574-AD2F-4410-9490-4517F257115D}&groupName=KFWB%20News%20Local%20Headlines&siteGUID={3B62BF55-4A93-48E6-A45D-6A495DC423AD}

FAA Radio Outage Affects Airports, Flights in West

Ground Stop Lifted at 6:06pm, Reinstated at 6:17pm

LOS ANGELES (KFWB/AP) 9.14.04, 6:20pm -- Radio failure at a Federal Aviation Administration control facility forced some airports in the West to hold flights on the ground Tuesday afternoon, a Los Angeles International Airport spokeswoman said.

The outage occurred at 4:40 p.m. PDT at the Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center in Palmdale, in the desert north of Los Angeles, said Gaby Pacheco, citing information from a regional FAA office.

Control of the airspace was turned over to other air traffic control facilities.

"We want to stress there are no safety issues just delays because control over the air space has been turned over to other air traffic facilities," Pacheco said.

Flights were not being allowed to depart, but flights in the air were being allowed to land.

There was no estimated time as to when the FAA will lift the national ground stop.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:48:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:

There was no estimated time as to when the FAA will lift the national ground stop.



National ground stop? Is that just for planes headed to that neck of the woods?

btw, the Flight Trackers come in handy when trying to figure out just where the plane is (approximately) that you are listening to...

anybody have the link for the site that used to show a national map of all the planes in the air at a given time? (think I remember that right, it was a few years, maybe pre-911)

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:50:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By warlord:

There was no estimated time as to when the FAA will lift the national ground stop.



National ground stop? Is that just for planes headed to that neck of the woods?

btw, the Flight Trackers come in handy when trying to figure out just where the plane is (approximately) that you are listening to...

anybody have the link for the site that used to show a national map of all the planes in the air at a given time? (think I remember that right, it was a few years, maybe pre-911)




Yeah thats just for flights going to that airspace.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:52:50 PM EST

Watch out, the Internet has started to crash!


Seriously, I hope everyone comes out alright with this.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:29:15 PM EST
All this stuff was caused by human error.
================================================================================
sign-in req'd
[ur]www.latimes.com/news/local/la-091504faaerror_lat,1,2401921.story?coll=la-home-headlines[/ur]

Human Error Blamed in Air Traffic Breakdown
A worker did not complete required monthly maintenance in Palmdale and the backup system failed to work because technicians had rigged it improperly, FAA officials said.
By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar and Megan Garvey
Times Staff Writers

3:33 PM PDT, September 15, 2004

Two separate human errors caused the breakdown in radio communications that brought Southern California's major airports to a near stop Tuesday, Federal Aviation Administration officials said today.

The system that failed ? a high-tech touch screen tool that allows air traffic controllers to quickly communicate with planes in transit ? shut itself down at the Palmdale communications center shortly after 4:30 p.m. Tuesday after a worker did not complete required monthly maintenance.

Then, the backup system failed to work because technicians had rigged it improperly, FAA officials said.

The dual failures ? which took nearly three hours to fix ? effectively grounded hundreds of flights and forced controllers working from other centers to divert scores more to locations outside Southern California.

FAA officials said today that within weeks the computer software used throughout the nation's air traffic control system would be fixed to prevent automatic shutdowns.

While the FAA on Tuesday insisted that the system failure posed no safety risks, officials acknowledged today that they investigated five incidents in which planes got closer to each other than regulations allowed.

Air traffic controllers union officials contended that the system failure ? which allowed its members in Palmdale to see the planes on their screens but not reach them by radio ? caused two near misses of airplanes. But officials from at least one of the airlines the controllers say was involved, Northwest, said it knew of no problems with its Flight 277, a plane bound to Orange County from Detroit.

Union officials from Professional Airways Systems Specialists, or PASS, which represents FAA computer technicians, said today that the system should never have been designed to shut itself down, although they acknowledged that an incorrectly trained employee failed to reset the system.

"What happened is that every 49.7 days, a counter has to be reset on that system," said Ray Baggett, a vice president of PASS. "If it isn't, the system will shut down. A PASS technician is supposed to reset it. The guy on duty hadn't been properly trained on the system. He apparently missed that step."

The FAA had initiated the practice of resetting the systems at communication centers as a "work around" of a problem that first emerged last year in Houston and Atlanta when the agency switched to new computers.

The latest glitch disrupted voice and radio communications at the Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center in Palmdale for 3½ hours. As many as 800 Southland-bound commercial flights were diverted Tuesday afternoon, and all takeoffs from the Southland's major airports were halted.

Cruise altitude air traffic is handled there for Southern California and most of Arizona and Nevada, an area of 178,000 square miles.

William Schumann, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Washington D.C. said this morning that air travel in Southern California was back to normal.

The diverted flights landed at airports in Northern California and other states, officials said, creating a massive air traffic snarl. Planes scheduled to take off for Southern California were held on the ground at airports nationwide.

The system breakdown left thousands of passengers stranded, some circling in planes for an hour or more before landing at airports far from their destinations, others waiting on the ground for planes that didn't take off as scheduled.

Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar reported from Washington, D.C., Garvey from Los Angeles. Times staff writer Daryl Strickland contributed to this report.

Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:58:09 PM EST
Geez, don't they have light guns out there? Steady green, thumbs up
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:58:16 PM EST
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