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Posted: 11/2/2009 4:18:12 PM EST
Came across this story. Hate to see this type of thing happen but the potential is always there. Without doubt there's more to the story, always is. It's also serves as a good lesson to armed citizens who want to get involved.

Homeowner shot
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 4:39:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 4:56:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 4:57:10 PM EST by Tango7]
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 5:37:22 PM EST
No 'fense, since I know a lot of us don't venture into the cesspool example of what happens when you combine freedom of expression and internet anonymity that is General Discussion,


Correct, I don't venture there. Get enough of that when I'm getting paid fairly well to put up with it, not for free though. The link was in my latest email from policeone.com so I thought it was a hot story. Never mind.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 9:37:46 PM EST
We-ll..................it's one of those things, damned if you do, damned if you don't (drop your cover), but essentially one should know, "When tactical comes busting in, you hit the deck." (ie, don't stand up and don't grab a gun to try to help)

The basic thing of it is that for the responding good guy, anyone with a gun that they don't know can be a bad guy.........and that's a point I believe a lot of people either don't know, don't realize, or forget.
__________________________________________
(Hearing a helicopter approaching the hanger where the alien spacecraft are stored, "Good guys or bad guys?"––Harrison Blackwood
"Doctor, considering what we are doing, everyone is potentially a bad guy."––Col. Ironhorse on them destroying the spacecraft, (w,stte), "War of the Worlds")
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:56:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 10:42:18 AM EST
Uniform always trumps plain clothes.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:41:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By Snowleopard:
We-ll..................it's one of those things, damned if you do, damned if you don't (drop your cover), but essentially one should know, "When tactical comes busting in, you hit the deck." (ie, don't stand up and don't grab a gun to try to help)

The basic thing of it is that for the responding good guy, anyone with a gun that they don't know can be a bad guy.........and that's a point I believe a lot of people either don't know, don't realize, or forget.


Something that even our brothers forget - when the uniforms show up, and you're in plainclothes, don't debate, don't discuss... just do what they tell you, even if you outrank them.


The officer didn't say anything. He just shot a man in the back without warning or seing a weapon or anything. The homeowner had ZERO chance to comply.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 1:22:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2009 1:28:56 PM EST by SMPrider112]
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By Snowleopard:
We-ll..................it's one of those things, damned if you do, damned if you don't (drop your cover), but essentially one should know, "When tactical comes busting in, you hit the deck." (ie, don't stand up and don't grab a gun to try to help)

The basic thing of it is that for the responding good guy, anyone with a gun that they don't know can be a bad guy.........and that's a point I believe a lot of people either don't know, don't realize, or forget.


Something that even our brothers forget - when the uniforms show up, and you're in plainclothes, don't debate, don't discuss... just do what they tell you, even if you outrank them.


The officer didn't say anything. He just shot a man in the back without warning or seing a weapon or anything. The homeowner had ZERO chance to comply.


Well I guess if you were in the room with him, then why didn't you tell him to put his gun down before the police arrived......ohh wait thats right, YOU WERE NOT THERE!?! please do tell where you are getting your info from....cuz there is only one person who knows whether a waepon was seen or not.

its easy to monday morning quarter back a guy AFTER the fact!

Is this a tragedy and a mistake on the officers part, yes, however was he acting accordingly, I dont know, I wasn't there...and I'm not gonna judge somebodys judgement when I wasn't there. We don't know what info was relayed from dispatch to the officers, we don't know what that officer saw or perceived to see.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 2:56:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 3:04:03 PM EST
good shoot, get the civilians out of the way
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:35:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By SMPrider112:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The officer didn't say anything. He just shot a man in the back without warning or seing a weapon or anything. The homeowner had ZERO chance to comply.


Well I guess if you were in the room with him, then why didn't you tell him to put his gun down before the police arrived......ohh wait thats right, YOU WERE NOT THERE!?! please do tell where you are getting your info from....cuz there is only one person who knows whether a waepon was seen or not.

its easy to monday morning quarter back a guy AFTER the fact!


This.

If you can provide solid evidence that supports your position, please share it.

Otherwise, making comments like this should be reserved for General Discussion - not BOTS.


Is the 911 transcript solid enough evidence?

Pay attention to the part between Lilly(officer that fired) and Coutts(supervisor) near the top. The part that goes something like:

Someone came out of the room.
Was there a gun down here?
I don't know, I heard screaming and I fired.



There is a lot of information in Bama's thread if you care to take the time to read it.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 5:14:35 PM EST
I didn't know transcripts could see what the officer saw.

As for his statements right after he discharged his weapon in a high stress situation, I would wait until you have been in that situation and have a solid understanding of how stress works before you hang the guy on a statement he made within seconds of the shoot.

Many people in high stress situations and shootings often see or don't see key parts to a story and often don't recall what they truly saw until hours or days later.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 5:42:39 PM EST
Using a trasncript of an extremely brief discussion as to what happened isn't a complete record of what occurred.

I am sure there are more details of the event than what was explained in those few words.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 12:17:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 12:18:53 AM EST by shrikefan]
Originally Posted By BiteDog:
I didn't know transcripts could see what the officer saw.

As for his statements right after he discharged his weapon in a high stress situation, I would wait until you have been in that situation and have a solid understanding of how stress works before you hang the guy on a statement he made within seconds of the shoot.

Many people in high stress situations and shootings often see or don't see key parts to a story and often don't recall what they truly saw until hours or days later.



Originally Posted By RDP:
Using a trasncript of an extremely brief discussion as to what happened isn't a complete record of what occurred.

I am sure there are more details of the event than what was explained in those few words.



OK - Here's the whole 911 transcrpt:







The shooting was at :20 and the statements were at 6:07, 6:10, and 6:13 where Lilly said he didn't know if there was a gun down there.

I see where this is headed - if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.



Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:13:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By BiteDog:
I didn't know transcripts could see what the officer saw.

As for his statements right after he discharged his weapon in a high stress situation, I would wait until you have been in that situation and have a solid understanding of how stress works before you hang the guy on a statement he made within seconds of the shoot.

Many people in high stress situations and shootings often see or don't see key parts to a story and often don't recall what they truly saw until hours or days later.



Originally Posted By RDP:
Using a trasncript of an extremely brief discussion as to what happened isn't a complete record of what occurred.

I am sure there are more details of the event than what was explained in those few words.




I see where this is headed - if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.




You quoted us. But I guess you need to read it again.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:32:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:35:22 AM EST by shrikefan]
Originally Posted By BiteDog:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By BiteDog:
I didn't know transcripts could see what the officer saw.

As for his statements right after he discharged his weapon in a high stress situation, I would wait until you have been in that situation and have a solid understanding of how stress works before you hang the guy on a statement he made within seconds of the shoot.

Many people in high stress situations and shootings often see or don't see key parts to a story and often don't recall what they truly saw until hours or days later.



Originally Posted By RDP:
Using a trasncript of an extremely brief discussion as to what happened isn't a complete record of what occurred.

I am sure there are more details of the event than what was explained in those few words.




I see where this is headed - if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.




You quoted us. But I guess you need to read it again.


More of the same I see.

I qouted you because the satements did NOT come out mere seconds after the shoot.

I quoted RDP because there was 3 pages of transcript - most not relevent but the time line was.

I'm just trying to present facts - not attack or belittle those who I do not agree with.

Do you have any facts to present? I would like to see them AND I will not try to degrade you if I do not agree.

ETA -

RDP,

Thank you for asking for more info before passng judgement - on me or the case.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:51:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:51:40 AM EST by BiteDog]
Originally Posted By shrikefan:

More of the same I see.

I qouted you because the satements did NOT come out mere seconds after the shoot. The "incriminating" quote came six minutes after the shoot? That is still way too early to pass judgement.

I quoted RDP because there was 3 pages of transcript - most not relevent but the time line was. This is a transcript. One small piece of the puzzle.

I'm just trying to present facts - not attack or belittle those who I do not agree with. You have presneted some facts, but I don't think you can conclude that these are ALL the facts.

Do you have any facts to present? I would like to see them AND I will not try to degrade you if I do not agree. I fail to see where anyone has degraded you. I have no facts to present in this case because I was not there. What I can offer is a reference to a shoot one of my partners had over a year ago. After shooting a man in a car, he was freaking out because he thought he saw a gun. We looked all over for the gun without disturbing the scene and could not see it. His mind was racing and said things that would certainly sound incriminating if that were the only piece of the puzzle. When the body was moved, we found the gun wedged between the body and the seat. The suspect had slumped over and his weight pushed the gun out of view. I don't typically share experiences and work related incidents but if you truly want answers this might help you realize that some times things are not as they seem and people are very quick to cry "bad shoot." with limited evidence.
ETA -

RDP,

Thank you for asking for more info before passng judgement - on me or the case.




Link Posted: 11/4/2009 9:07:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:

The officer didn't say anything. He just shot a man in the back without warning or seing a weapon or anything. The homeowner had ZERO chance to comply.



When the transcript says:
Officer 1 : Was the gun down here?
Officer 2 : I don't know, I heard screaming and I fire.

That doesn't mean the officer didn't see a gun and just fired.

The other officer may have been pointing to an area of the room and the shooting officer was unclear of where the gun now was. We don't know, we weren't there.


Link Posted: 11/4/2009 10:46:37 AM EST
Shoot the intruder then put gun away and wait for cops.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 11:00:26 AM EST
Not good .
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 12:00:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By SMPrider112:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
The officer didn't say anything. He just shot a man in the back without warning or seing a weapon or anything. The homeowner had ZERO chance to comply.


Well I guess if you were in the room with him, then why didn't you tell him to put his gun down before the police arrived......ohh wait thats right, YOU WERE NOT THERE!?! please do tell where you are getting your info from....cuz there is only one person who knows whether a waepon was seen or not.

its easy to monday morning quarter back a guy AFTER the fact!


This.

If you can provide solid evidence that supports your position, please share it.

Otherwise, making comments like this should be reserved for General Discussion - not BOTS.


Is the 911 transcript solid enough evidence?

Pay attention to the part between Lilly(officer that fired) and Coutts(supervisor) near the top. The part that goes something like:

Someone came out of the room.
Was there a gun down here?
I don't know, I heard screaming and I fired.


There is a lot of information in Bama's thread if you care to take the time to read it.



No, the 911 transripts is not enough evidence!! If you were a cop, you would know this....just because someone told dispatch, does not mean dispatch relayed that information to the officers on scene...or sometimes info gets aired so quickly while yer running lights and sirens to a call, that sometimes you dont always hear the info. Again its easy to judge a shoot after the fact....only one person knows what that officer saw or percieved that night, not anyone else....and sure as shit not some internet armchair commando!!!
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 12:17:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 12:17:23 PM EST by NorCal_LEO]
We are not going to beat this horse here. Everyone is welcome to post in the GD thread.
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