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Posted: 5/29/2016 9:07:33 PM EDT
...why was Jesus the one remembered?

This is from the secular stand point, not the spiritual and from a faith stand point.

How do those in academia who don't believe explain this?
Link Posted: 5/29/2016 9:48:14 PM EDT
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.
Link Posted: 5/29/2016 10:58:47 PM EDT
Of course I know that.

But to what does a non-believer attribute the long lasting impact of Jesus? Was it something about his message, his personality, his followers, or all the above?

Link Posted: 5/30/2016 10:20:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By owlless:
Of course I know that.

But to what does a non-believer attribute the long lasting impact of Jesus? Was it something about his message, his personality, his followers, or all the above?

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To a "non-believer" ? Why would they be worried about Jesus or that His message has lasted for 2,000 years and that it will last for eternity? Maybe they are insecure in their lack of belief? Maybe they should attend Mass or church and read the Bible. Because in the Bible it is where the Word of God and His Son, Jesus Christ, can be found. You, they, should try it. It's free and it is such a Blessed and happy thing.
Link Posted: 5/30/2016 12:03:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2016 12:03:38 PM EDT by TWIRE]
Because the 'philosophy' and the way of life that he taught is universally true and moves humanity toward the betterment of each individual and of society as a whole.
Link Posted: 5/30/2016 12:16:14 PM EDT
Not an expert by any means, so I have a question: Did followers of other messiahs of the day preach inclusion for non-jews as well as jews?

If not, then that could be part of it.

Judaism was then, and still is, a minority religion in the world. The amount of expansion a religion can have is limited if you restrict it to a single ethnic group.

Link Posted: 5/30/2016 12:47:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Because the 'philosophy' and the way of life that he taught is universally true and moves humanity toward the betterment of each individual and of society as a whole.
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Decent response. Seems legit.
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:29:36 AM EDT
Because the others weren't raised from the dead in the sight of the people
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:31:40 AM EDT
Constantine
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 10:18:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By JoshAston:
Constantine
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His Edict of Milan with Licinius in 313 was a blessing for Christianity. But they we're both aware the tides were turning and they shouldn't stand in the way. They knew the message of Jesus was true then as it is now and they could never stop it. We should also thank his mother Helena for her conversion and influence on Constantine.
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:06:55 PM EDT
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:29:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Because the others weren't raised from the dead in the sight of the people
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Just watched "Risen" on DVD. Some parts are campy but it is overall a good movie that provides some insight into how one particular non-believer accepted his message. Great watch for a buck fifty on Redbox.
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:37:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Because the others weren't raised from the dead in the sight of the people
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No one witnessed him being raised from the dead.
Link Posted: 6/3/2016 7:53:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.
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It sure is.
Link Posted: 6/4/2016 11:14:42 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.
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Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.
Link Posted: 6/4/2016 11:16:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:


No one witnessed him being raised from the dead.
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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Because the others weren't raised from the dead in the sight of the people


No one witnessed him being raised from the dead.

Read the New Testament and you'll find your answers.
Link Posted: 6/4/2016 5:12:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.
Link Posted: 6/5/2016 11:05:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By owlless:


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.
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Originally Posted By owlless:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.

And which Faith do you follow? Or do you?
Link Posted: 6/5/2016 3:46:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

And which Faith do you follow? Or do you?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By owlless:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.

And which Faith do you follow? Or do you?


Hmmm... very interesting question.

Link Posted: 6/5/2016 11:12:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By owlless:


Hmmm... very interesting question.

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Originally Posted By owlless:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By owlless:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.

And which Faith do you follow? Or do you?


Hmmm... very interesting question.


Should we wait for your answer ?
Link Posted: 6/6/2016 11:10:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

Should we wait for your answer ?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By owlless:
Originally Posted By artman54:

And which Faith do you follow? Or do you?


Hmmm... very interesting question.


Should we wait for your answer ?


Does it matter?
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 4:18:20 PM EDT
Sure, but only because you've entered this thread.
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 1:28:10 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Devoted followers? Luck? Plenty of religious figures with huge followings came before and after him.

Where are they now ? Jesus is still here and 1/3 of the entire worlds population believes in Him and FOLLOWS HIM.


Still here with Billions of followers as well.
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 9:56:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.
View Quote


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 4:12:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2016 4:12:44 AM EDT by ThreeNinesFine]
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.




Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 5:21:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.



http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.



Big difference in being slowly tortured to death and being shot
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 7:04:49 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
Keep in mind there is only one source for the information about what Jesus said and did in that regard, and that is testaments of his followers.

Just like we have statements about what Mohammad said and did, based on the writings of his followers.

You can't draw too many conclusions based on the details in the narrative of Jesus's life, since you can't verify that those details are accurate.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 8:04:33 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Keep in mind there is only one source for the information about what Jesus said and did in that regard, and that is testaments of his followers.

Just like we have statements about what Mohammad said and did, based on the writings of his followers.

You can't draw too many conclusions based on the details in the narrative of Jesus's life, since you can't verify that those details are accurate.
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Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
Keep in mind there is only one source for the information about what Jesus said and did in that regard, and that is testaments of his followers.

Just like we have statements about what Mohammad said and did, based on the writings of his followers.

You can't draw too many conclusions based on the details in the narrative of Jesus's life, since you can't verify that those details are accurate.

One source.....we only have one source on the details of the revolutionary war....books.. The bible is a compilation of books. Not just one guy writing it down.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 8:42:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2016 8:48:26 AM EDT by fatalerror113]
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Originally Posted By KD5TXX:

One source.....we only have one source on the details of the revolutionary war....books.. The bible is a compilation of books. Not just one guy writing it down.
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Originally Posted By KD5TXX:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.
Keep in mind there is only one source for the information about what Jesus said and did in that regard, and that is testaments of his followers.

Just like we have statements about what Mohammad said and did, based on the writings of his followers.

You can't draw too many conclusions based on the details in the narrative of Jesus's life, since you can't verify that those details are accurate.

One source.....we only have one source on the details of the revolutionary war....books.. The bible is a compilation of books. Not just one guy writing it down.
There are 4 accounts of the same story with differing details. There is debate as to which accounts are independent, and which are not.

Also, all of the accounts are from the point of view of believers.

It would be like if we only had 4 accounts of the revolutionary war attributed to George Washington's soldiers, and literally no other history regarding it. No documents supporting it. Not accounts from other troops, or civilians, or troops on the opposing side.

That's the difference. We have hundreds of independent sources for information about the revolutionary war.

For the life of Jesus, at best, we have 4 similar sources (unless you count the apocrypha). Even that is debatable, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

What is means is that when a 4 possibly independent accounts within a religious book is the sole source of information about a religion, you have to take it skeptically.

Think of it this way: If a biography was written by a group of people decades after the fact, based solely on eyewitness accounts (eyewitnesses who incidentally want to make the subject look good) you can't ensure that everything they say about that person or the exact events is accurate.

ETA::Also, keep in mind, the question in the OP is in the realm of skeptical inquiry. This means, unless we take the beliefs of the followers of the other messiahs for which we have documentation as literal truth as well, we shouldn't unfairly give the gospels any such benefit.

If you want to compare the differences between different messiahs of the time (or throughout history), you have to give them equal consideration. It is best to do this by being skeptical of all of them, rather than accepting all of them as accurate historical accounts.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 9:56:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:



Big difference in being slowly tortured to death and being shot
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Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.



Big difference in being slowly tortured to death and being shot


He was also tortured before his death but I am sure it wasn't enough for you.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 10:02:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.



http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.



Bábí[1] faith, was a new religious movement that flourished in Persia from 1844 to 1852,
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 10:14:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.



http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.
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Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.

There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 10:17:23 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

"Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.

There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?


Link Posted: 6/12/2016 12:56:30 PM EDT
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?

Of course not, but why select such a weak one. I wonder if he follows Bab? How about you who do you follow?
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 2:25:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?

Of course not, but why select such a weak one. I wonder if he follows Bab? How about you who do you follow?
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It just goes to show you than anyone can attract followers.

Its more difficult for someone to pull off in more modern times since people have higher rates of literacy and education.


FWIW: I follow none of them.
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 3:13:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
It just goes to show you than anyone can attract followers.

Its more difficult for someone to pull off in more modern times since people have higher rates of literacy and education.


FWIW: I follow none of them.
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Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?

Of course not, but why select such a weak one. I wonder if he follows Bab? How about you who do you follow?
It just goes to show you than anyone can attract followers.

Its more difficult for someone to pull off in more modern times since people have higher rates of literacy and education.


FWIW: I follow none of them.

That's sad. Then what interest you in the Religious section?
Link Posted: 6/12/2016 10:18:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

That's sad. Then what interest you in the Religious section?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?

Of course not, but why select such a weak one. I wonder if he follows Bab? How about you who do you follow?
It just goes to show you than anyone can attract followers.

Its more difficult for someone to pull off in more modern times since people have higher rates of literacy and education.


FWIW: I follow none of them.

That's sad. Then what interest you in the Religious section?



I personally like his questions and challenges. Get tired of people always agreeing. Makes you think about your beliefs and look if they were just accepted or studied from all sides.
Link Posted: 6/14/2016 11:43:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By owlless:
Of course I know that.

But to what does a non-believer attribute the long lasting impact of Jesus? Was it something about his message, his personality, his followers, or all the above?

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For me, two reasons:

1. His existence and acts were prophesied long before him, by many Jewish prophets.
2. In hoc signo vinces - "In this sign, you will be victorious." The Church (namely, the Catholic Church), has outlasted any and all secular empires and temporal tests since the time of Christ.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 6:31:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

That's sad. Then what interest you in the Religious section?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Is it trolling to answer a question and not give the same answer as the OP?

Of course not, but why select such a weak one. I wonder if he follows Bab? How about you who do you follow?
It just goes to show you than anyone can attract followers.

Its more difficult for someone to pull off in more modern times since people have higher rates of literacy and education.


FWIW: I follow none of them.

That's sad. Then what interest you in the Religious section?
I saw the thread in active topics.

Didn't realize where it was until I was in the thread.

I've not purposefully gone to the religious section in years.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 9:14:00 AM EDT
Well you know you're always welcome and maybe the good folks and the Good Lord will teach you something !
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 8:12:11 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By owlless:


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.
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Originally Posted By owlless:


Zoroastrians, Hindus, Moslems, Mormons...

They are still here.

The fact the Christianity flourished and grew does not prove it is the one true religion.


The first is in tiny numbers. The second I can't speak on. Islam started much later than Christianity, far later than 1st or 2nd century Palestine. Mormons, also from not that long ago.

Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
There are 4 accounts of the same story with differing details. There is debate as to which accounts are independent, and which are not.

Also, all of the accounts are from the point of view of believers.

It would be like if we only had 4 accounts of the revolutionary war attributed to George Washington's soldiers, and literally no other history regarding it. No documents supporting it. Not accounts from other troops, or civilians, or troops on the opposing side.

That's the difference. We have hundreds of independent sources for information about the revolutionary war.

For the life of Jesus, at best, we have 4 similar sources (unless you count the apocrypha). Even that is debatable, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

What is means is that when a 4 possibly independent accounts within a religious book is the sole source of information about a religion, you have to take it skeptically.

Think of it this way: If a biography was written by a group of people decades after the fact, based solely on eyewitness accounts (eyewitnesses who incidentally want to make the subject look good) you can't ensure that everything they say about that person or the exact events is accurate.

ETA::Also, keep in mind, the question in the OP is in the realm of skeptical inquiry. This means, unless we take the beliefs of the followers of the other messiahs for which we have documentation as literal truth as well, we shouldn't unfairly give the gospels any such benefit.

If you want to compare the differences between different messiahs of the time (or throughout history), you have to give them equal consideration. It is best to do this by being skeptical of all of them, rather than accepting all of them as accurate historical accounts.


Maybe a more appropriate comparison would've been to Alexander the Great, or Socrates.

There're a number of Jewish polemics from the time that point to their criticism of Jesus and his resurrection, some pretty sordid stuff that was no doubt put out there to discredit who Jesus was. I've read about a few, but certainly not all of the other "messiahs" of the time, they were generally revolutionaries who never had the same effect on the people or anywhere near the same following. Little to none of them had communities spring up and stay the test of time. To that fact, Eusebius's Church History speaks of the believers who saw Christ around 70AD, and were told to flee, and did so to Pella to flee the destruction of Jerusalem that Jesus had foretold (but that many confuse for prophecies regarding the end time). In the same work, he speaks of the gospels being available in the lifetime of the apostle John and led to his writing of his own book due to it containing other things that John felt pertinent to the story.

Link Posted: 6/17/2016 8:14:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2016 8:28:57 AM EDT by ThreeNinesFine]
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Originally Posted By uxo2:



Bábí[1] faith, was a new religious movement that flourished in Persia from 1844 to 1852,
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Originally Posted By uxo2:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.



Bábí[1] faith, was a new religious movement that flourished in Persia from 1844 to 1852,


I see you didn't make it past the first sentence.

While the Bábí movement was violently opposed and crushed by the clerical and government establishments in the country in the mid-1850s, the Bábí movement led to the founding of the Bahá'í Faith which sees the religion brought by the Báb as a predecessor to their own religion.


The Bahai faith is still going to this day.


There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?


Bab isn't my 'buddy'. He means as much to me as Muhammad or Zeus. He is just yet another Messiah figure for humanity.


His idea continues on to this day with millions of followers.



Assuming you aren't Catholic or Orthodox then it is likely they have more followers than whatever your offshoot branch of an actual church that has been around for 2000 years has. With that said a religion sticking around with a lot of followers means nothing. Some faiths older than Christianity still have hundreds of millions of followers.


No I am a Theist. From the outside looking in your subjective 'proofs' of your Religion being correct are absolutely terrible. Move the goal posts all you want but it proves nothing. I see no reason to accept your testimony of faith when you don't do the same for others. I'm here because I want to find the truth out there if there is any. The best time in my life was when I had faith. I would love to be back there.



Edit: Clarifications.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 11:30:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Not an expert by any means, so I have a question: Did followers of other messiahs of the day preach inclusion for non-jews as well as jews?

If not, then that could be part of it.

Judaism was then, and still is, a minority religion in the world. The amount of expansion a religion can have is limited if you restrict it to a single ethnic group.

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Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 6:07:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SaloSV:


For me, two reasons:

1. His existence and acts were prophesied long before him, by many Jewish prophets.
2. In hoc signo vinces - "In this sign, you will be victorious." The Church (namely, the Catholic Church), has outlasted any and all secular empires and temporal tests since the time of Christ.
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Originally Posted By SaloSV:
Originally Posted By owlless:
Of course I know that.

But to what does a non-believer attribute the long lasting impact of Jesus? Was it something about his message, his personality, his followers, or all the above?



For me, two reasons:

1. His existence and acts were prophesied long before him, by many Jewish prophets.
2. In hoc signo vinces - "In this sign, you will be victorious." The Church (namely, the Catholic Church), has outlasted any and all secular empires and temporal tests since the time of Christ.



Taking all the writings together and using them as a proof is a good argument for me. A better one for me would be the fact that people thought enough of him to write about it.

The variety of writings from all the different followers of the time does appear to be remarkable. Unless they were written later in the name of the individual which was a common practice and not frowned on as it is today. But as others said, they were written by his followers at one time or another and as such should be viewed with skepticism.

But others outside of the Jewish/Christian realm could do miracles. Recall that the magicians matched Moses miracles one for one for a while. Others in the first century had miracles attributed to them. If I recall being a magician in the first century was a death sentence under the Roman rule. Why? Because people apparently could do magic or miracles. Or people were more easily duped back then and Rome didn't want "Messiahs" running around with a lot of followers looking for there own kingdom. Kinda smacks of sedition.

So either lots of people could do miracles or people were more easily duped and there were no miracles because the evidence is really the same for Jesus and anyone else who could allegedly do miracles.

So whatever the case, why was Jesus remembered? What was it about his message or miracles that was different? Some of the others were more militant and got killed in other ways. But there is evidence that Jesus message was messaged a little overtime to appear less militant and appeal to a wider audience than the Jews. And if this is the case, again my question is why?





Link Posted: 6/18/2016 6:47:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ThreeNinesFine:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Originally Posted By artman54:
He is remembered because He IS the Savior. The only begotten Son of God. No others before and no others after. Many in academia do believe in Jesus as The Savior. Those that don't believe, I guess they could look for someone who was supposed to be a messiah and explain why they aren't remembered as one after 2,000 years while Jesus still is and will always be. They could also start by reading the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, after all it is the greatest history book ever written.


This. Jesus laid it on the line. When asked who he was, his answer."Who do you say I am?"

He went willingly to be scourged and crucified. I am not aware of any other "Messiahs" who did that.


Crucified? No.

The founder of the Bábism, and one of three central figures of the Bahá'í Faith has a similar story in which he willing went to his death though.

“Now you may proceed to fulfil your intention,” the Báb told His captors. Again, He was brought out for execution. After the first regiment refused to fire, another was assembled and ordered to shoot. This time the bodies of the Báb and His young follower were shattered. A whirlwind of dust engulfed the city, blotting out the light of the sun until nightfall.


http://www.infobarrel.com/media/image/146469_max.jpg

Estimated followers are 7.3 million in 2010.

There are a number of fake messiahs including your buddy "Bab". His idea/reign lasted less then a decade and you compare him to the True Messiah Jesus Christ who's reign is 2,000 years old and will last forever. You should come up with something more then that unless that's the best you can do? Maybe you're just an atheist trolling a Christian thread in the Religion Section?


Dissension was dangerous business once the Romans switched to Christianity and made Rome the seat of Christianity. (Mostly to squeeze another century or two out of the large empire as the citizens were embracing Christ, and to further consolidate power going to the new age with the Pope, Vatican City, etc,)... with all the influence the Romans had, it makes historical analysis of the events at the time difficult. It was another 1300 years before the Bible was printed in the common tongue of Europe. Who really knows how it all went down 2000 years ago?
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 6:51:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ErikS:



Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Not an expert by any means, so I have a question: Did followers of other messiahs of the day preach inclusion for non-jews as well as jews?

If not, then that could be part of it.

Judaism was then, and still is, a minority religion in the world. The amount of expansion a religion can have is limited if you restrict it to a single ethnic group.




Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.


The political circumstances of Rome adopting Christianity are interesting
Link Posted: 6/18/2016 10:38:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ErikS:



Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Not an expert by any means, so I have a question: Did followers of other messiahs of the day preach inclusion for non-jews as well as jews?

If not, then that could be part of it.

Judaism was then, and still is, a minority religion in the world. The amount of expansion a religion can have is limited if you restrict it to a single ethnic group.




Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.


Yes ...but no. Had the Romans adopted another religion, it would have died. Christianity was helped to spread because of the Romans. I agree. But it spread to the Romans because it was true. There was a higher power in charge there than just the emperor of Rome.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 7:18:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By KD5TXX:


Yes ...but no. Had the Romans adopted another religion, it would have died. Christianity was helped to spread because of the Romans. I agree. But it spread to the Romans because it was true. There was a higher power in charge there than just the emperor of Rome.
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Originally Posted By KD5TXX:
Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Not an expert by any means, so I have a question: Did followers of other messiahs of the day preach inclusion for non-jews as well as jews?

If not, then that could be part of it.

Judaism was then, and still is, a minority religion in the world. The amount of expansion a religion can have is limited if you restrict it to a single ethnic group.




Actually it is because christianity was adopted by the Romans who, at the time, were the world leaders. It became pervasive throughout the lands they conquered and has since been passed along because of cultural norms in those lands. Had the Romans adopted another religion that would have been the religion that won out.

Take a look, anywhere Rome went, christianity followed. Descendants from those areas carried the belief system on in their travels. Hence christianity came to North America because it was the belief system of most of Europe when they traveled here.


Yes ...but no. Had the Romans adopted another religion, it would have died. Christianity was helped to spread because of the Romans. I agree. But it spread to the Romans because it was true. There was a higher power in charge there than just the emperor of Rome.


I just stated the facts. I injected no statement of the veracity of the religion and won't.


Link Posted: 6/19/2016 7:55:19 AM EDT
You said " had the Romans adopted another religion, that would have won out." I agree with everything else you said.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 9:11:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2016 9:15:41 AM EDT by ErikS]
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Originally Posted By KD5TXX:
You said " had the Romans adopted another religion, that would have won out." I agree with everything else you said.
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Considering that open non-christians were burned at the stake it is not like the masses had a choice. The people did what Constantine said and believed what he chose for them to believe.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/legitimization.html
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 9:26:42 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:


No one witnessed him being raised from the dead.
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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
Originally Posted By AR15thur:
Because the others weren't raised from the dead in the sight of the people


No one witnessed him being raised from the dead.



They absolutely saw a resurrected Christ. It's actually the only thing explains their behavior.

They saw him eat, hugged him, talked to him (over 500 people) and that's after seeing him brutally killed and buried. So while no individual saw his body come back to life (he was alone in the tomb) they saw a living Jesus after he had had died and was buried. So your comment fails the logic test.

Rhino
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