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Posted: 10/6/2004 7:44:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 7:44:52 PM EST by NYPatriot]
I have to ask because I was reminiscing with a friend tonight about a conversation we had right before America liberated Iraq. At the time we both sort of agreed that our forces would find WMDs' in Iraq even if we didn't actually find WMDs' there, if you get my drift.

Don't get me wrong... I'm glad that the administration has not resorted to planting evidence in Iraq. It shows me that Bush is a moral & decent man, and that our intelligence errors were just that... honest miscalculations.

I guess it is the cynic in me that wonders if this course of action was ever considered? It sure would have made Bush's life much easier & ensured him a second term.

Oh well... just thinking out loud. I'll put my tin foil hat away now!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:44:58 PM EST
I'm very suprised,I kept saying they would find them.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:45:50 PM EST
I still think they will find something one day myaelf.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:46:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:

I guess it is the cynic in me that wonders if this course of action was ever considered?


i can say with 100% certainty, absolutely not.


Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
I'll put my tin foil hat away now!


good idea
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:49:14 PM EST
I am
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:52:42 PM EST
my question is: what about the ones that we've found? we have a couple EOD guys who were hospitalized with burns from MUSTARD GAS! apparetnly a bunch of rags thought they were setting up a regular 155 HE projectile but it turned out to be a WMD round.

now of course people are going to say "but thats old stuff....."

but unless I'm horribly mistaken, the terms of surrender from Desert Storm were for them to have ABSOLUTELY NO weapons of mass destruction. old, new or otherwise they were to have absolutely no wmd's.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:52:43 PM EST
The Admin may have gone so far as to suppress evidence of WMD's and even recover them without leaking the info out so as to not embarass other "friendly" nations who had no business selling them to Iraq in the first place. Things are happening there in a political sense I don't think we would even begin to understand IMHO. WMD's have been found but the media is not going to talk about either because the that would be defacto supporting Bush.

It's never been about WMD's anyway. I think VP Cheney made a mistake way back when even remotely trying to justify the war with WMD's during a time of modest support.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:11:21 PM EST
I considered the possibility of it happening. I think it would have been impossible to do on a large scale without it eventually getting out and seriously biting them in the ass.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:19:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:26:16 PM EST by NYPatriot]

my question is: what about the ones that we've found? we have a couple EOD guys who were hospitalized with burns from MUSTARD GAS! apparently a bunch of rags thought they were setting up a regular 155 HE projectile but it turned out to be a WMD round.

now of course people are going to say "but that’s old stuff....."

but unless I'm horribly mistaken, the terms of surrender from Desert Storm were for them to have ABSOLUTELY NO weapons of mass destruction. old, new or otherwise they were to have absolutely no wmd's.



All that is true Horseman, but let's be honest... the invasion of Iraq was sold to the American people primarily on the basis that Iraq had an active WMD program & that Saddam could turn these weapons over to terrorists at any given moment. In order for GWB to come out of Iraq above criticism, we really needed to find large stock piles of functioning "smoking guns" that could be paraded before the media & the "world community".

Again, don't misunderstand me... the world is better off with Saddam behind bars. Iraq is definitely part of the broader WOT. Bush went with the best Intel he had at the time & he made a strong & decisive command decision. I don't fault him at all, and I will be pulling the lever for GWB next month.

I'm just saying that it would be nice if the administration had a fat & juicy "October Surprise" up their sleeve that they could shove down the throats of Kerry, Edwards, and all the Left leaning zealots that contaminate this great nation!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:25:35 PM EST
I would like to use Okams razor sp? to analize this issue but what really is the most simple and likely explanation? At best it is that we were wrong and no WMDs existed after '91, but I work within the TSA and know full well that most of the so called security I work around is window-dressing to prevent panic on the part of the citizenry so what if the truth is that WMDs are near and the info is not deemed safe to release? After the incident in Jordan last April with 20 tons of chemical agent being seized I just don't feel we know what is going on. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:28:00 PM EST
To me, your question is irrelevant. We did the right thing in ousting Saddam Houssein. Syria, Iran and North Korea are next. When and how are the only questions.

Here's the REAL, unspoken problem about the war:

We do not care enough about the arabs and their "plight" to want to send OUR sons and daughters to fight and die to help them.

Essentially, we don't care about the arab muslims. We dislike them but do not really, viscerally, hate them or we would wipe them out. We don't care enough about them to solve the underlying problems which created these evil people in the first place. We think they should solve this for themselves.

It is that we wish they would just go away. We are only there for the oil.

We want to kill those specific individual organizations who attacked us but are unable to do so. The perpetrators are dead. Al Qaeda is an NGO - there's no massed army to attack.

We feel the arabs are ungrateful (or not grateful and appreciative enough) for the expenditures we are making on their behalf. We don't feel we should spend ANY of our money when they are oil-rich.

These are the reasons why, as our sons and daughters are called up to go to Iraq, sentiment here will turn against our war of liberation. They aren't worth it.


These are not my feelings or take on things. It is what I gather from others around me.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:31:08 PM EST
There has been a BUNCH more found, not just a few gas shells. Anyone remember the 55 gal. drums that test positive for sarin right near the end of active hostilities? The ones stenciled with the French ag. company logo? How bout the hidden nuke site that 1st MEU found early on?
These things popped up briefly, then dissapeared....they were not forgotten, however.

Nick
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:35:23 PM EST
One of my employees came right off the line in Iraq. He slipped up once when we were talking about the sand box and mentioned an op where they were guarding a WMD site. Makes you wonder.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:40:32 PM EST
Well if we did find them, and it looks like some had been removed before we got there, I dont think it would go over well if people heard. Would be lots of panic.

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:42:05 PM EST
They DID find WMD... although the cultures found were decayed... details people... get out and fucking read.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:43:55 PM EST
They'll find it, right before the elections. Bush will win! He'll be saying "I told you so, we found them"
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:47:11 PM EST
WTF? I thought Imbroglio was the only libbie here???



J/K


What would be the point of planting WMDs? Whether actual or planted, the LIEberals will CLAIM that we planted them, so there's no point to spend time/effort/money to plant anything....
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:54:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:56:15 PM EST by NYPatriot]
Commando_Guy...


There has been a BUNCH more found, not just a few gas shells. Anyone remember the 55 gal. drums that test positive for sarin right near the end of active hostilities? The ones stenciled with the French ag. company logo? How bout the hidden nuke site that 1st MEU found early on?
These things popped up briefly, then dissapeared....they were not forgotten, however.



You hear about things like this from time to time, but if they are true, why hasn't Bush gone on prime time national T.V. to definitively PROVE to the American people that the WMD threat was real??? I envision the ultimate "I told you so" moment, complete with photos, video tape, first hand testimony, incriminating documents, etc.; followed up by a tour of the WMD sites for the press, Congressman, Senators, world leaders, and other opinion makers.

If Bush has the goods, he had better lay his cards on the table NOW, or he might not see a second term!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:58:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
If Bush has the goods, he had better lay his cards on the table NOW, or he might not see a second term!



I hate to do this again... but

+1
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:02:47 PM EST

WTF? I thought Imbroglio was the only libbie here???


WTF is right Ninja???

I guess you overlooked the following...


Don't get me wrong... I'm glad that the administration has not resorted to planting evidence in Iraq. It shows me that Bush is a moral & decent man, and that our intelligence errors were just that... honest miscalculations.



Again, don't misunderstand me... the world is better off with Saddam behind bars. Iraq is definitely part of the broader WOT. Bush went with the best Intel he had at the time & he made a strong & decisive command decision. I don't fault him at all, and I will be pulling the lever for GWB next month.



I'm just saying that it would be nice if the administration had a fat & juicy "October Surprise" up their sleeve that they could shove down the throats of Kerry, Edwards, and all the Left leaning zealots that contaminate this great nation!



I envision the ultimate "I told you so" moment, complete with photos, video tape, first hand testimony, incriminating documents, etc.; followed up by a tour of the WMD sites for the press, Congressman, Senators, world leaders, and other opinion makers.


Yeah, I'm a flaming Leftist... just ask anybody!



Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:18:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:51:59 AM EST
Bump for day crew.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:01:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Commando_Guy...


There has been a BUNCH more found, not just a few gas shells. Anyone remember the 55 gal. drums that test positive for sarin right near the end of active hostilities? The ones stenciled with the French ag. company logo? How bout the hidden nuke site that 1st MEU found early on?
These things popped up briefly, then dissapeared....they were not forgotten, however.



You hear about things like this from time to time, but if they are true, why hasn't Bush gone on prime time national T.V. to definitively PROVE to the American people that the WMD threat was real??? I envision the ultimate "I told you so" moment, complete with photos, video tape, first hand testimony, incriminating documents, etc.; followed up by a tour of the WMD sites for the press, Congressman, Senators, world leaders, and other opinion makers.

If Bush has the goods, he had better lay his cards on the table NOW, or he might not see a second term!



There is something strange about all of this. The other thing that bothers me is that, from what I've read, we did have Iraqi links to the 1st WTC attack, but you never hear anyone talk about it. For some reason, the administration is holding back from putting what seems to be their strongest argument forward.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:02:01 AM EST
I just dont think that Iraq destroyed all of their weapons. I think they moved them somewhere, maybe Syeria.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:02:58 AM EST
its kinda like when those POS drug dealers give the cops some trouble and the cops "find" a gun in his pocket.

Im am suprised too, we kinda got caught with are pants down.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:08:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 8:09:24 AM EST by warlord]

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Don't get me wrong... I'm glad that the administration has not resorted to planting evidence in Iraq. It shows me that Bush is a moral & decent man, and that our intelligence errors were just that... honest miscalculations.

I guess it is the cynic in me that wonders if this course of action was ever considered? It sure would have made Bush's life much easier & ensured him a second term.


The old saying goes "cheaters never prosper." The intelligence lapses were due to Bill Clinton's dismantling the CIA during the 8 years he was in office. The CIA was caught flat footed when Bill ordered the bombing of an asprin factory, the PRC consullate, the WMDs in Iraq. Unfortunately the mass/news media is going to try to blame Bush for all the intelligence mis-steps in Iraq.

Bush got to take the truth like a man that he is.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:18:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 8:21:44 AM EST by NYPatriot]

I just dont think that Iraq destroyed all of their weapons. I think they moved them somewhere, maybe Syria.


Those are the rumors I'm hearing as well. As the story goes, after the first gulf war, Saddam decided it was far safer to farm out his WMD developement & storage to Syria.

Wouldn't that be the ultimate kick in the teeth to Kerry... Bush is able to prove that Iraq "OUTSOURCED" their WMD program!!!
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:26:36 AM EST
I'm not surprised at all the administration hasn't planted wmd's. Pres. Bush has too much integrity for that.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:32:17 AM EST
If you had over a month to get rid of/hide your weapons, wouldn't you??? Im sure he had them but they are in Syria now.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:09:29 AM EST
I'll guarantee that if we find WMD's (talking about the real deal - warheads, toxins, etc) in a mountain cache somewheres we'll be accused by the media, liberals and foreigners of planting them, even if they were made with SAddam's own hands.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:19:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:21:29 AM EST
Don't forget, they were finding illegal Iraqi biological growth vessels (fermenters) and rocket motor casings/pressure vessels on scrap metal in Europe right after the holstilites ended. The Iraqis were selling this crap as scrap metal to make some money. This is due to insufficient troops to safeguard the weapons sites. Even the nuclear storage facilities, with 10,000 tons! of radioactive material, went unprotected for about 6 months.

Don't forget this either, we gave Hussein at lesat nine months notice we were coming. He could have disposed of everything in those nine months - including possibly sending them to Syria.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:31:12 AM EST
It hasn't been done because this President is actually serious about these threats and won't do anything to jeapordize the fight against terrorists and those who'd seek WMDs to use against the U.S.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:50:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
To me, your question is irrelevant. We did the right thing in ousting Saddam Houssein. Syria, Iran and North Korea are next. When and how are the only questions.

Here's the REAL, unspoken problem about the war:

We do not care enough about the arabs and their "plight" to want to send OUR sons and daughters to fight and die to help them.

Essentially, we don't care about the arab muslims. We dislike them but do not really, viscerally, hate them or we would wipe them out. We don't care enough about them to solve the underlying problems which created these evil people in the first place. We think they should solve this for themselves.

It is that we wish they would just go away. We are only there for the oil.

We want to kill those specific individual organizations who attacked us but are unable to do so. The perpetrators are dead. Al Qaeda is an NGO - there's no massed army to attack.

We feel the arabs are ungrateful (or not grateful and appreciative enough) for the expenditures we are making on their behalf. We don't feel we should spend ANY of our money when they are oil-rich.

These are the reasons why, as our sons and daughters are called up to go to Iraq, sentiment here will turn against our war of liberation. They aren't worth it.


These are not my feelings or take on things. It is what I gather from others around me.



You are right, we don't give a fuck about the Arabs from Saudi Arabia because they are not in danger and should be helping us do our job and helping the world by increasing oil output through development, not just bitching that they are at full capacity.

The Iraqis on the other hand are a pretty western, eager bunch when their leaders are not slaughtering them like sheep.

And yes it was nice to Liberate them and make them free and remove Saddam, but that is window dressing on the REAL REASON we went to war in Iraq. It is drawing terrorists out of the woodwork world-wide and we are getting to kill them without much complaint. The people we get to shoot or blow up in Iraq could probably have gotten visas to come to the US. Unfortunately, saying such things would offend the delicate sesibilities of the dripping pussies who don't realize that YES you do have to KILL people sometimes to be safe.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:57:29 AM EST
No need to plant them, you can just change the definition. At first WMD meant Nukes & Bio weapons. Now it means everything from Nukes on down to CS/CN Gas and Mustard Gas.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:02:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By DOA:
If you had over a month to get rid of/hide your weapons, wouldn't you??? Im sure he had them but they are in Syria now.



Yep. Look in Syria.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:03:04 PM EST
we did find sarin gas
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:04:30 PM EST
The only EOD personnel that were burned by Mustard Agent were here in the US in Delaware that I am aware of. They busted open an old 75mm gun projectile.

Now some Army EOD personnel did get exposed to a Sarin Binary round that was used as an IED over in Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:13:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
I'm not surprised at all the administration hasn't planted wmd's. Pres. Bush has too much integrity for that.



....Joke....

I have heard that we did find wmd's in Iraq but they were removed and secretly destroyed because the name Halliburton was found on some of the parts.

....Joke.....

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:35:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 12:37:54 PM EST by 9X19]
I've always wondered why the French were so hellbent to stall us and stop us from liberating Iraq, unless they wanted to buy time for Saddam Hussein to get the evidence out of Iraq. France was one of Saddam Hussein's biggest allies. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Chirac helped his buddy Saddam to remove the evidence of a WMD program that the French helped build in spite of UN sanctions.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:49:04 PM EST
This shit pisses me off because many of us know there were WMDs in Iraq, so why not report it. I just dont understand it.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:58:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrKasab:
This shit pisses me off because many of us know there were WMDs in Iraq, so why not report it. I just dont understand it.



My memory is not too good how do we KNOW that there were WMDs in Iraq? I thought he permitted UN inspectors free reign in the country. I may be remembering wrong.

And to answer the thread's 1st question, yes, I am somewhat surprised that the US didn't plant some WMDs there. Understand that if Bush did order for some WMDs to get planted, and word eventually leaked out, it would be a massive blow to the credibility of Bush and the Republicans.

So Bush launched a war with WMDs as his justification. When none were found and US citizens started finding other reasons to support the war--simply to justify the already-completed invasion/occupation, Bush realized he didn't need to plant them and take the big risk, as he maintained enough public support for the war without planting anything.

In other words, enough people still support him that he doesn't need the risk of planted weapons to get himself re-elected.

-Nick Viejo.
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