Soldiers from the North Korean People's Army violated the terms of the 1953 armstice by entering the Korean DMZ and setting up LMGs for a whole week, only to pull them out again at the end of each day.

[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/27/nkorea.dmz/top.dmz.picture.jpg[/img]
Are these guys just itching to get their asses kicked?

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/27/nkorea.dmz/index.html[/url]

They've done this sort of thing a few times before during the 1990s but of course Klinton was President so there was no punishment.

Will Bush continue this rediculous obsession with Iraq while leaving the [b]real[/b] threat of North Korean aggression unchecked?

If they are close enough to take photo's they are close enough to hit!

One shot...One kill![sniper]

Or line them up with a .50 cal![50]

BigDozer66

Short answer.
Yes.
Just my .02

These little yellow bastards are NUTS!

Fuck those Korean shit heads !!!
They ALL can go to hell as far as I concerned.
But we CANNOT pull out of the South as much as I would like to see that happen. If we did the North would move down & there by resupply itself with the goods & materials it needs to continue on. The US Govt is simply waiting for the North to implode into itself and thus ending the threat. They cannot go on much longer.
How bad is it ? Well, at least the new recruits in the North's Military are fed full rations compared to the rest of the military which is more than the general population gets. The recruits get full rations because if they weren't, they couldn't complete training on "starvation rations". But the question remains, how long can they keep this up?

North Korea is South Koreas problem. This isn't 1950. South Korea can handle anything the North can throw at them. China and Russia won't get involved this time.

True, but that's not what concerns the US. N. Korea is a whore. It sells any and all of its weapons systems to whoever has the cash, as witnessed by the recent sale of scuds to Yemen. The United States fears that, when N. Korea develops more nuclear weapons,  they would have no qualms about selling either the nukes or weapons grade plutonium to the highest bidder. That 'highest bidder' could easily be an enemy of the United States (i.e. OBL). That's our biggest concern

It happens all the time over there.  It's part of a posturing and should be expected.  It hasn't happened only a couple of times either.  It happens frequently, and yes gunfire gets exchanged.  Nothing new here.

It's just now there is a story for the US news media to report.  They think they can make some ratings or sell air time with anything provacative from Korea, so you're actually getting to hear some of these stories that are not exactly "news" to anyone that's been over there.

Remember that Asians don't think like westerners.  They key here is that they withdrew at the end of each day.  This is a message they are sending to us.  We will probably send one back (though you probably won't hear about it).  That's the way it gets done over there.  It's just now the US news will report anything on Korea.  At least for the next two weeks until the sheeple find it boring and the media has to search for a new story to sell.

Ross

They, along with the "terrorists", are demonstrating that we are a paper tiger.....

I tend to think GWB is the quiet calculated type and he's not going to toot his horn when he acts. He'll get all the facts, give them one chance to make good then kick their ass if he doesn't have the spooks take out key political figures first. Look how he handles the Afgan situation, no fanfare, "We'll hunt them down & kill them". This ain't Clit-ons military. When all the ducks are in a row, expect a show of force in the DMZ.

Therein lies my point, they have gotten away with so much with NO repercussions, hence, they have had no incentive to stop. In the 1990s (I think it was 1996) North Korea even sent thousands of troops into the DMZ looking like an invasion force. Then they simply turned around and went back. Then they did it again, and again after that.

These aggressive acts are not so much a warning to the US as an attempt at intimidation to the South so the South should return to appeasing them. The UN is bitching about the seals being taken off the nuke reactors but North Korea couldn't care less because they know the UN doesn't do anything about it.

A number of US soldiers have died over the years (including the infamous axe-killings). How many DPRK troops have we killed in return? None. The only DPRK troops that have been killed were killed by ROK troops in defensive operations (land infiltrations and recent sea clashes).

Pull the US troops and destroy those nuclear reactors NOW!

Another thing. From what I've seen, the ROK has a lot in common with the US. Most of the anit-US, anti-war demonstrators are from the younger generation.

When I was there (2 tours), I used to hang out on the strip in TDC alot. Most of the bars are owned by younger people and the waitresses are whores. They act nice to GIs, because we've got pockets full of GI money. You can tell thet there is a lot of insincerity in there politeness.

Sometimes, we would take a hike out of the usual GI sectors, and go find a bar where GIs and tourists are not typically hanging out. Basically, the kind of "neighborhood bars" of Korea. Not all glitzy and shiny like the GI bars.

Lots of times these places are full of older people. Many of them are war vets. These guys, as soon as they see high and tights, come over to chat. They politely ask to join the group, and proceed to tell war stories, usually buy their share of rounds for the group, and unfailingly thank you for your service. Not in a gushing or insincere way, but in a humble sort of appreciative way. Those are the people that make it worth the US being there and defending freedom. The ones who fought and remember and appreciate that we are fighting for and with them. If you never get out of the GI bars, you'd never know this.

Well, that's just my observation.

On North Korea: Waddya say we just NUKE'm and THEN pull our troops out of South Korea?

On ROK Vets. I once had a nice meeting with a ROK vet who actually fought in the Korean War. We were shooting M1 Carbines together, and talked alot about the Carbine and the War.

A lot of Korean people have been very respectful and polite to me. I think that a lot of the younger generations, in particular the college students are very ignorant and impolite.

But the older people are just great.

What's the message?

13 years ago I pulled my year in that dump of a country, the south hates us worse than the north.  I heard more than one Korean complain that America was keeping them from uniting.

Maybe fighting the north will give them something to do besides stab GI's, screw them.  They do not make anything we need or cant buy elsewhere cheaper.  If they nuke the south or Japan they can fight it out themselves or die as peaceniks.  

No real news. We do the same stuff.

For awhile, the US maintained that the M249 SAW was an "automatic rifle" and not a crew-served MG, so it wasn't covered under the armistice and DMZ patrols could carry it, despite the ban on MGs in the DMZ. They had similar arguments about the M203s.

If you are really interested in the situation, research 1967-68 on the DMZ; they were having heavy firefights almost daily and combat patches were awarded (and I think a few CIBs, but don't quote me on that).

North Korea is NOT a paper tiger; there is no easy way to win a war there, and our high-tech advantages don't mean squat in war that boils down to machineguns, bayonets and artillery. The NKs couldn't sustain a war for long, but we would probably lose most of the troops over there now, and if the NKs were aggressive enough, the South Koreans might capitulate. It is not a pretty situation.

This is what could happen:

- we attack Iraq. (Syria and Israel get involved)

- North Korea is testing the waters and we get involved there as well. (China is watching but supplying the N. Koreans with weapons)

- First moment we are weak, China is attacking Taiwan and we have to defend Taiwan. (China gets involved in the war allied with N. Korea)



At this time we fight with Iraq and with China. Both wars on their home land. Most of the NATO will NOT get involved and we get our asses kicked big time. In desperation and humiliation we lunch a few nukes and WILL get a few back.



I really hope THIS WILL happen.

[size=6]Kaoma wtf? Why would you wish the deaths of Americans? Are you freakin nuts?[/size=6]

North Korea has needed an ass kicking for a while. Now we've got an excuse. While we are on the whole "Axis of evil" kick, why don't we wipe north korea off of the face of the earth too?

I don't wish for anybody to die, but WE lost control of the Gov and THE PEOPLE are too coward to take control back. A wake up call is needed.

You hope we get nuked? [whacko]

Lets make S.K. an island

I do not wish for us to get nucked. I do not wish for anybody to get nucked.

I hope we get out of the war-ing business. Who the hell are WE to impose on everybody OUR point of view. If power is the reason, would you like somebody more powerfull than you to impose on you what you do in your own home?

I see a feeding frenzy about attacking Iraq, turning all the Arab countries into glass, exterminating N. Korea, etc. One day the wheel will turn if we keep like that. There were many Empires that rose and fell. We are just another one of them.

Yes, that is a standard element of North Korean propaganda.
Where were you located here and how many Koreans did you actually hang out with? You seem woefully ignorant for someone to have spent a full year here. After all, we are here at the request and behalf of their government. While we may not want to, we would have to leave if they asked - just as we left the Philippines.



I truly don't understand your dislike for one of our most loyal allies. It's a pity.


Adam

Where the hell were you stationed, Yongsan? Did you ever get off post? Did you ever even try to meet a real Korean?

If you stick to the GI haunts, you're going to have an experience like the main strip outside of any US base: strip clubs, pawn shops, and bad used car dealerhips. All shit set up to take the GI's money.

If I was to judge Kentucky and Tennessee by the strip on 41A outside of Ft. Campbell, I'd say sell both states to Cuba and be done with 'em. However, I took the time to find out what was really going on in those states, and there are some great people there. They are a couple of my favorite states.


I've never been to Ft. Lewis, but would you want me to judge your state by the strip outside there? Or by all the peacenik, tree-hugging, grunge rock wastoids I see on the news? Or are you one of them, maybe?

Maybe a war will give the Koreans something more to do than stab GIs. But maybe it will give the GIs something more to do than rape little Korean girls. Or patronize Korean women who were sold into sex slavery by their parents. And I don't feel bad about pointing my finger at my fellow GIs, because that's a finger that needs to be pointed.

This is the biggest thing I am worried about. South Korea can more than handle North Korea all by themselves. But if the Chinese are ever going to "liberate" Taiwan, the only real time they could pull it off is if the US is fighting in North Korea AND Iraq. Iraq is not going to be a problem but it will still tie up alot of aircraft dealing with it.

The North Korean problem requires alot of infantry due to the mountainous terrain of the area. It is brutal. Air strikes will only have limited use, close air support will be the only real benefit. They'll still be able to take out the North's supply lines and industry. If there is a war they will take the fight to North Korea to destroy the nKPA and the Communist regime.

North Korea will fold just as quickly as Iraq but there will be far, far more US casualties (in the thousands, perhaps as many as 10,000). Still, we either take the hit now or take it in the millions when North Korea sells someone a Bomb and a missile capable of reaching the US to go along with it.

Wait before you criticize his "you hope we get nuked?" response, I'm not sure what "Americans" you're referring to. A Chinese general once commented that the US would rather lose Taiwan instead of Los Angeles. The statement was made in reference to the fact that China has missiles with nukes capable of hitting parts of the Western US. Said general was read the riot act by Condie Rice a few weeks ago when he visited the US.

Will anybody here cry if California loses a few million liberal socalists?

China doesn't have the amphibious capabilities to pull off a successful invasion of Taiwan, I'd venture to say the U.S. is probably the only power capable of mustering the assets required for such a campaign, Taiwan also holds technological advantages over PLA in the air and sea, PLA's seaborne forces wouldn't survive very long without air superiority.  It's easier for NK to invade the south as there's no Taiwan Strait to cross, and Seoul is close enough to the 38th parallel, it may just be traded for time till the American forces get their assets in the peninsula.  If there's a second Korean War I don't think we'll be looking at casualties rate as they were in 1950s, the U.S forces in every aspect overmatch NK's, correct me if I'm wrong, in the begining of the 1st Korean War the U.S. and NK forces were fairly evenly matched in technology and equipment with the US holding air superiority.  Few of the ROK divisions were reliable then and that's changed.  South Korea would lose some ground but it won't lose the war with American help, I think it can hold its own against the North.
In terms of casualties, I'd say street fighting would be far more deadly and difficult than Korea's rugged terrain, our technological capabilties can still brought to bear in moutainous battlefields (look at Afghanistan) wheras street fighting largely negates these advantages, I can be totally wrong.

GovtThug:
Im in a good mood this early am after a few cups
of Maxwell, so I will ignore the following comment you made about the Bluegrass State. I understand the point/analogy you are trying to make, however, your first reaction solution ie "sell to Cuba" is juvenile IMHO.  

If I was to judge Kentucky and Tennessee by the strip on 41A outside of Ft. Campbell, I'd say sell both states to Cuba and be done with 'em. However, I took the time to find out what was really going on in those states, and there are some great people there. They are a couple of my favorite states.

Have another cup of coffee and read his post one more time. He said it was one of his favorite states.

We have no advantage over the North Koreans on the Korean pennisula. We have a 2 Brigade infantry division that has six manuver battalions; 2 Armored, 2 Mech Infantry, and 2 Air Assault.

Air power means squat over there; the visibility during the winter months negates much of our air power. Don't count on US airfields in Korea to be able to provide any close air support. The closest reliable air support is in Japan (and the Japanese have to let us use their airfields) and Alaska. Think about that.

It will take a couple of weeks to get any meaningful combat forces from the US to Korea, and even then we are only talking about a few Divisions. Our Mech and Armored forces are not very useful in Korea because they do not have the manuever cooridoors to unmask their firepower (it would also take about 45-75 days to get a heavy division to Korea). Our light forces are good and get there more quickly, but they need to be avavilable, and not in Southwest Asia, and they would still be massively outnumbered.

The ROKs are not very good. There are only about 4 ROK Divisions that will really fight if a war breaks out (the three ROK Marine Divisions and the Capital Mechanized Division). The rest are staffed with poorly led and poorly motivated conscripts who are just doing their mandatory 2 1/2 years of service until they can get out and go to school or get a good job. They will fold under heavy combat. Look at what the NKs have and compare it to what we have; it is not good.

If Kim Jong-Il is doing back channel stuff with Saddam Hussein, this could be a coordinated effort; we cannot fight a major war in the Gulf and simultaneously handle a war in Korea. We couldn't in 1991, when the Army was twice its current size. During the 1994 crisis on the Korean pennisula, the Iraqis started some serious saber rattling, which I think was part of the reason for a diplomatic solution to the crisis; military solutions were unworkable. Ask yourself another question: where to Iraq and Iran buy their Surface to Surface Missiles?

Hopefully all of Kim John-Il's wooden planes have rotted by now.

You apparently neglected to mention the new anti-ship missiles that China has been buying from Russia; they are designed specifically to take out US aircraft carriers.

Huh? Operation Anaconda was a total failure. We took several casualties and a hell of a lot of Al-Qaeda escaped. Of course, the North Korean People's Army won't be hiding in caves to slip out to another country, so you could be right.



The US won those Japanese bases in World War II, I doubt very much if the US military cares whether they "let" us do it or not.

Consider who you are comparing: North Korean conscripts who are not fed very well and lack modern equipment VS South Korean conscripts who are fed very well and have the latest equipment. Men do not fight well on empty stomachs.

We can fight two major wars at once right now. If we pulled our troops home where they're not needed we could fight 4. Not a problem.

Iraq has never got any Scuds from North Korea. They are not in cahoots in any way, despite any desperate attempts by the Bush regime to link them together in an "Axis of Evil". Iran and North Korea however are very much in partnership: Iran and North Korea collaborate on ICBM design and Iran regularly tests such missiles. If the Iranian reactors are allowed to go on-line they will have nuclear capability, too.

Krogagnon, I was refering to the period before US forces could interfere with China's amphibious assault on Taiwan.  In 1944 the invasion of continental Europe was possible largely due to air supremecy held by the allies, and even then it was difficult, what with the huge numerical and qualitative (except in some small arms) superiority in equipment, and the economical and logistical capabilities to sustain such operations.  Hitler cancelled Operation Sealion because the Luftwaffe failed to gain air superiority over Britain (that and Germany was ill prepared for amphibious ops, and Hitler's eyes were on Russia)

Comparing NK conscripts to ROK conscripts comes down to which ones are fanatics.

The NKs are crazed hardened killers. They are probably the only ones, outside of the party elite, in the whole country who get enough to eat. If they do go hungry occasionally it only makes them meaner.

The ROKs may be reasonably well fed (doesn't explain why we had to feed the non-KATUSA ROKs assigned to our unit out of whatever we could scrounge up). Outside of the ROK Marines, a few Army units and the ROK SF (more analogous to our Rangers), the ROKs will not fight. I know, and have firsthand knowledge of this. The ROK senior staff are incompetent; their Generals are mostly corrupt and more interested with the trappings of rank and setting up their post-Army careers in the defense industry. They are not warriors and fighters.

High-tech equipment doesn't matter. This isn't the kind of terrain where our wonder weapons will make much of a difference. This is a war where rifles, MGs and bayonets, and the will to use them, matter. The NKs are stone killers. The ROKs aren't. There is no essential technical difference. The ROKs have contract-production M16A1s or K1s and K2s; the NKs have AKs. Whatever the finer points of either system, they are essentially equal. There is no technological advantage.

I doubt that the Japanese will let us use airbases in their country to wage offensive (or defensive) strikes in the Korean Theater. They didn't in other wars in the region. Even if they do, air power doesn't matter much in Korea. The terrain, weather conditions and proximity of massive amounts of Korean civilians in the area will prevent us from bringing it to bear. Even if the Japanese let us fly, it won't matter.

We have 9 active duty Divisions. Here is where they are and what they are doing:

1st ID: Germany, deploying to SWA
2d ID: 2 BDEs in Korea, 1 at FT Lewis (a test Brigade, transition to the "Stryker" concept; sounds like an 80s hair band);
3d ID: Deploying to SWA;
4th ID: Fort Hood-Probably destined for SWA;
10th Mountain: Fort Drum-Could probably be mostly deployed to Korea within 21-45 days.
25th ID: Hawaii-Could probably be mostly deployed to Korea within 21-45 days.
82d Airborne: Many elements in Afghanistan-Destined for SWA;
101st Airborne (Air Assault): Destined for SWA;
1st Cav: Fort Hood-destined for SWA;
1 AD: Germany-Deploying to SWA.

We also have a Division equivalent deployed to Bosnia, and they are not going anywhere any time soon.

This is half what we had in 1991, and the Active Army would basically have to deploy almost all of its combat strength to SWA to replicate the 1991 operation (which they are doing). The currently planned Iraq operation is different than the last one, because we are staying when the shooting dies down, and will probably keep at least 3 Divisions there for the near term, and probably 1-2 for the next several years. We have two Divisions that are maybe available to deploy to Korea, if the airlift and sealift capability is avaialable to get them there (which it won't be), and it would still take 3-5 weeks from the word "gto" for them to assemble any kind of meanigful combat strength in theater. There is one Marine Division that might make it; it looks like the other two are already heading for SWA.

Even if we could pump three or four Divisions into Korea in a few weeks, what difference would it make? The country isn't that big; it could be overrun in a couple of weeks if everything breaks the NK's way (weather and the ROKs folding). Even if our guys got there in time to make a difference, they have no real advantage over the NKs; trained troops with rifles and towed artillery vs. trained troops with rifles and towed artillery is an even break, and there are lots and lots more NKs. I don't doubt the courage, professionalism our determination of our armed forces, but I know the situation in Korea. There are no easy answers, and our advantages are all nicely countered by terrain, weather and enemy capabilities. The whole problem is a real nut-buster, and the only options are diplomacy, a massive conventional war that will kill 20-40K Americans and several million ROKs killed in the first few weeks (and possibly end in defeat) or pre-emptive massive nuke strikes. The latter is palatable or sellable to the American people. It looks like we go with the first option by default.

I have a bad feeling about North Korea, I think NK will be responsible for starting the Big One! & I think it is close!

PS: From what my dad told me about the ROK soldiers he met in Nam, I think the South will hold! he said they were the some of the toughest troops he ever met, He said the NVA would avoid ROK troops like the plague!

My Vietnam war vet buddy says the same thing about ROK troops, but consider that this was 30 years ago. These days Korea's youth are burning American flags in Seoul.

If China and Russia won't bail out the North there's no reason why we should bail out the South. If South Korea can't hold its own against the North with what it has then South Korea doesn't deserve to exist as a state. The US shouldn't keep propping up the weak; the world doesn't need another South Vietnam.

Pull the troops out!

The ROK troops in Vietnam were a different breed. For one, they all came from the ROK military's elite units, primarily the ROK Marines or the Capital Division, which is the Army's elite conventional unit. They also all had a chip on their shoulder; almost all lived through the war or its immediate aftermath, and all had likely lost relatives or close family members to Communist action. The chance to engage VC or NVA was pure payback for them. Even 25 years after the fact, I met ROK veterans who cheerfully described slaughtering Vietnamese. Those guys were hard-core. Their kids aren't. Their enemies are. The NKPA grunt is the product of the most closed, propaganda-minded and controlling society on Earth. They have no concept of what the outside world is like. They live for the day they will be turned loose on the South to kill our troops and South Koreans.

They aren't 10 feet tall and bulletproof, but they have willpower and are well-trained. Do not discount them. The ROKs aren't even in the same league.

Comeon guys the North Koreans have breached the DMZ at times since the Korean war ended.  

There have been massacres along the DMZ by North Koreans at times in the past.  

I saw this article and accept for presenting it along with the Nuclear reactor article I don't find these actions as anything out of the ordinary. They have happened before.

I think the North Koreans just figured out how to get on CNN everyday.

You are correct, But Don't forget if the north comes south the southerners will quickly realize it is a fight or die situation, & remember they are the children of the old hard line ROC troops. Plus the old timers are still there, Still young enough to pick up a rifle!

Not to get off topic but how about the south Koreans technological advantage? I am sure the North is armed with the same old Soviet Crap we turned to dust in Iraq! Will the side with the best toys win?  

All of these goings on between Iraq, North Korea and the good old USA makes me wonder if we'll ever learn to NOT not finish a war.

Adam_White,
No I did not need more coffee. You missed my point entirely.

Please find a more appropriate sigline, if you are gonna keep sayign stuff like this.....

Scott

Already established.....

Scott

Those floating airfields come in handy.....


Scott

True, but how many CBGs are within striking distance of Korea now, and how long would it take us to get more there?