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Posted: 6/29/2001 11:38:02 AM EDT
I watched a 'documentary' on this shootout a couple of day ago. They played all the video tapes, plus narration, etc. One thing I could not figure out, why didn't someone take a HEAD SHOOT with a high powered rifle?
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:40:50 AM EDT
Because the initial officers on the scene did not have high powered rifles.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:43:34 AM EDT
Who had high-powered rifles? The police had 9MM handguns and shotguns, not sure of the ammo available for the shotguns, slug or buckshot. The thing I can't figure out is how did those BG's fire so many rounds and hit so few people? You would think that someone would have got hit off their crapper 6 blocks away from a "stray round". Someone wasn't enforcing Murphy's Laws as they apply to unaimed gunfire.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:44:05 AM EDT
Maybe: Time to respond, Moving Target(very few are trained in acquiring moving targets), or "Know your target and beyond"(if they missed were would the bullet go) Just a couple of thoughts. Head shot sounds easy.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:44:12 AM EDT
I watched the same thing and one of them was taken out by a rifle shot to the back of the neck at the same time he shot himself below the chin. Why no head shots were taken with their sidearms would be a better question, IMHO. Of course it is hard to get close to someone with an automatic rifle and the Police also have the added burden of worrying about collateral damage to civilians while bad guys don't.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:46:02 AM EDT
Big B: I thought that the video of the punk killing himself showed the exit wound from shooting himself under the chin. Was this indeed a rifle shot? Just wondering...
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:47:37 AM EDT
The narrator claimed the BG shot himself with his 9mm pistol.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:50:07 AM EDT
How far away could someone make a "headshot" reliably on the range? 25 yards? Now figure in you are wearing body armor, you ran to your position, the "target" is moving, and the "target" may be concealed or partially behind cover. And the "target" has a weapon that is firing 800 rpm, is firing bullets that will defeat your body armor and things that would provide the target with cover from your rounds. There is a huge difference between combat shooting and target shooting. To be in combat with a handgun vs. a military rifle being used by a person covered in body armor........ It's bad, it's all bad.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:51:05 AM EDT
Narrator claimed BGs fired over 1,000 rounds and the GGs returned at least 500 rounds. Not very many hits on either side for a street shootout. Of course its always easier to say that when you're not the one getting shot at don't you agree?
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:52:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bud: Big B: I thought that the video of the punk killing himself showed the exit wound from shooting himself under the chin. Was this indeed a rifle shot? Just wondering...
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There are 2 "hits" at almost the same time. 1 was from a SWAT sniper.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:53:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:55:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2001 11:53:31 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By ECS: Narrator claimed BGs fired over 1,000 rounds and the GGs returned at least 500 rounds. Not very many hits on either side for a street shootout. Of course its always easier to say that when you're not the one getting shot at don't you agree?
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Nope-not may hits, but how many shots did the BG's body armor defeat? Plus maybe the LAPD was trying to use suppressive fire, they were up against military weapons, so military tactics might be fair
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:55:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NO-AR-:(:
Originally Posted By Bud: Big B: I thought that the video of the punk killing himself showed the exit wound from shooting himself under the chin. Was this indeed a rifle shot? Just wondering...
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There are 2 "hits" at almost the same time. 1 was from a SWAT sniper.
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Well that makes sense, for some reason the narrator didn't mention that or maybe I didn't hear it.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:57:05 AM EDT
perhalps the reason why more civilians weren't hit was because the police cevacuated the surrounding area. ps probably the reason why they took full auto assault rifles to rob a bank. if it were me (but it wouldn't because I wouldn't rob a bank) I would take a mp5's and m92f's and take three more people for fire suppiority. and I would have left as adverse to trying to shoot it out with the lapd.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:58:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2001 11:56:30 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
If you watch it you can see he jerks one way, then another, the second results in a spray behind him-that is the rifle shot. I don't think LAPD really wants to let everyone know that they shot him just as he killed himself.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:01:02 PM EDT
The reason that there was no head shot is that the cops had 9mm pistols and the bad guys had fully automatic assult rifles. The robbers held the cops at bay and at long range. It is almost impossible to get a clean head shot with combat sights and you are a 60-100 yards away. The bank robbers were also moving while spraying the cops with an unending stream of suppression fire. I believe that there were many hits to their torsos but they were also wearing body armor. One bolt action .308 would have ended that shoot out real quick.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:04:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NO-AR-:(: If you watch it you can see he jerks one way, then another, the second results in a spray behind him-that is the rifle shot. I don't think LAPD really wants to let everyone know that they shot him just as he killed himself.
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OK thanks, I wouldn't mind watching it again but I didn't tape it. I'm sure it will air again. Incidentally, didn't I hear that one of the BGs had his AK-47 JAM! Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:11:06 PM EDT
I think the one who killed self/headshot was down to a handgun. I'm not sure how that came about, out off ammo, cop round hitting gun, but he was the less heavily armed of the 2. I think he might have been hit by the "sniper" prior to him killing himself, which is what prompted him to kill himslef, I believe it was a more or less an incapacitating wound and he no longer had the means to effectivley resist. resistance is futile............
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:11:17 PM EDT
if they had a high power rifle they would not have to make a head shot
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:19:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2001 12:25:48 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
When you absolutely positively want to be sure. I believe most police marksman(sniper) are trained to take head shots, the idea is that the aggressive, deadly action of the "target" must be stopped immediately. Is a .308 a high-powered rifle? If it is shooting hollow point rounds that have dismal armor penetration capabilities. And since the robbers were wearing "home-made" body armor they could have had significant protection in some areas. Any bullet can be stopped by armor it is just a question of how much armor you want to strap on. If you are taking automatic small arms fire how much time do you want to take to line up a shot and fire, hoping that the bullet will defeat the armor before the "target" is able to kill you, your co-workers, or a bystander?
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:50:45 PM EDT
Anyone know where you can get a good copy of that complete video? please email me
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 12:55:26 PM EDT
Reminder that the LAPD who at first were outgunned with only sidearms and shotguns had to go down the street to a gunstore and get AR15 rifles. NOW, because of those laws the dealers probably wont have any due to Calif assault weapons ban. Sure, some dealers will have LEO stuff but not as many as before.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:00:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thee12nv: Anyone know where you can get a good copy of that complete video? please email me
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If your stomach is strong, just watch MSNBC - they replay it about every other week.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:08:58 PM EDT
Whatever you do, DON'T get that crappy North Hollywood Shootout video. The ENTIRE original soundtrack was wiped and substituted by what sounds like a guy rapid firing a semi-auto AR15. The footage isn't very good either.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:22:26 PM EDT
police snipers are taught to shoot to the head, and as a matter of fact they are taught to shoot to the brain stem if they can to try to eliminate a spasm shot. police snipers are also trained to learn how to lead in on their targets so that they can hit a moving target. however I saw a statistic a while ago that said that about 33.5 percent of sniper shots from police snipers were not sufficient stop a perp in one shot. I have another beef however. correct me if im wrong but doesn't the police department pay for the the all the ammo that they use in their service weapons. how is it that all the cops that I have ever met couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, whith the exception of swat teams I have never met a cop that could shoot. from what I have heard most cops dred when the have to qualify every year because they know that they haven't practiced enough. I have seen video when a cop has missed a person at point blank range, with a whole clip full of ammo. if I had a free range at my disposal I would be there every day that I could. why are cops such bad shots.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:44:54 PM EDT
Tactical teams and spec-ops are maybe the only ones with a department budget that will let them shoot well enough to be proficient. You want to be better, you pay as you shoot. Unless you reload it gets real expensive, real quick.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:50:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jomeokee: Reminder that the LAPD who at first were outgunned with only sidearms and shotguns had to go down the street to a gunstore and get AR15 rifles. NOW, because of those laws the dealers probably wont have any due to Calif assault weapons ban. Sure, some dealers will have LEO stuff but not as many as before.
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And none of those guns were used in the shoot out. Gun stores are in business to make money, they'll stock whatever makes a decent mark up.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:53:11 PM EDT
The two bank robbers were only wearing pistol caliber armor. Class 2 or maybe 3A which is rated up to 44 mag. Real Class 3 armor, armor that can stop a .308, is almost 2 inches thick and covered in ceramic plates, it makes you look like a little tank. And still, I think AP 7.62 rounds can penetrate it. A hollow point .223 can easily pentrate a class 2 vest. A .308 casing could probably push a chunk of rubber through it.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 1:55:50 PM EDT
I never saw the vid you mentioned, but I do remember a few things about the incident. The police were out gunned (neat what you can smuggle in from south of the border, neh?) and were not trained to handle people who were so prepared for a shootout. Most crooks try to avoid a shootout, these guys came looking for one. The police also raided the local gun stores to get rifles as their service revolvers and shotguns had little effect on the shooters.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 2:12:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2001 2:13:02 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By Sodie: The two bank robbers were only wearing pistol caliber armor. Class 2 or maybe 3A which is rated up to 44 mag. Real Class 3 armor, armor that can stop a .308, is almost 2 inches thick and covered in ceramic plates, it makes you look like a little tank. And still, I think AP 7.62 rounds can penetrate it. A hollow point .223 can easily pentrate a class 2 vest. A .308 casing could probably push a chunk of rubber through it.
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Ok, body armor in the US has NEVER failed in the real world at its rated level. I order to achieve a rating the vest must successfully defeat the rated bullet several times. A level IIIA vest stopped a .45-70 rifle bullet, unfortunately the officer wearing it died from the blunt trauma. The family tries to sue the armor maker, their defense, that vest performed far above it's rating........ Level IIIA vests have also stopped 12 ga slugs. The NIJ doesn't rate the vest as likely to stop, they rate them as will stop. My understanding is that the bad guys made their own armor system using several vests each, including layering vests. Wanna make any guesses about the stopping ablity of 2 level IIIA vests on top of each other? Whether or not an AP round would penetrate it is a side issue. The LAPD SWAT team probably uses hollow point match ammo. They wouldn't use AP due to cost and the fear of where that bullet would go after it hit the target. Police snipers, shoot for the brain stem, they do it to stop the "target" right now before they can do any more damage. Would a .223 HP go through a level II vest over a IIIA vest with a hard plate(for a concealment type vest)?? I don't think that if your choice is head shot, or a maybe I can get through the armor on the targets chest that you go for the "maybe" shot.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 2:33:59 PM EDT
Hmmmm...I've heard that layering vests doesn't work because you need the all the layers of fiber and resin interacting as a whole to capture the projectile. Either way, that's only about 7/8" total. You need about 1 1/2" min of solid spectra fiber to stop most high velocity rounds. Even thicker for AP. I have shot at a 1/4" thick FEY bumper with several types of ammo. 9mm makes a deep dent, .223 FMJ goes right through, small holes, .308 FMJ forget about it, it goes through just about the entire car, and even my .44 DE made clean .44 sized holes using hollow points. I think trama plates may deflect .223's a bit but the FMJ's I shot went through 1/4" steel like butter.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 3:03:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2001 3:05:29 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Well yes, I think you are right on the bonding of the material. But there is a difference between the absolutely guaranteed stopping level and what may work. I also think layering may act like spaced armor. If you or I were designing armor 1 thickness of several layers bonded would probably be the best for weight to performance and consistency of performance. But improvised armor may be very effective. If a wearer has a IIIA with shock panel under a II for instance. 1) if a hollow point hit the outer armor wouldn't it deform and be a far less effective penetrate when it hit the IIIA vest? 2) If the outer vest caused the bullet to "yaw" before striking the inner vest wouldn't that make the bullet less effective? 3) Humans are much better "backing" for vests. The human body "gives" when impacted allowing the vest to more effectively dissipate the energy of the bullet.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 3:45:34 PM EDT
Greetings: Does anyone know the full list of weapons the robbers used? What was the source for full auto weapons? I recalled seeing an AK-47 with a thumbhole stock and an HK-91 (G3?) Thanks ACK
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 3:59:43 PM EDT
Would you guys please read the "3 Most Dangerous Jobs" post.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 7:45:14 PM EDT
Well there are lots of people who shoot a lot and get good who don't carry and aren't authorized to use deadly force. I'd think the cops should be required to be good shots. They still have a free range, range fees are what keep me from shooting more
Originally Posted By rigger: Tactical teams and spec-ops are maybe the only ones with a department budget that will let them shoot well enough to be proficient. You want to be better, you pay as you shoot. Unless you reload it gets real expensive, real quick.
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Link Posted: 6/29/2001 10:25:49 PM EDT
My mother-in-law asked me why the police couldn't just shoot the deranged bank robbers in the hand. (to avoid causing serious injury or death to the fine young men carrying the weapons and wearing body armor) Good thing we live far away from my in-laws !
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 10:46:08 PM EDT
I don't know the source of the auto weapons. They were stopped a few months before the shoot out and arrested for having a trunk full of guns and ammo. Apparently, they were all legal and returned. I saw a couple full auto AK's with plenty of drum mags, a full auto AR-15 with drum mag, a HK-91 - tri-burst/full auto capable, judging by the film, and 1911 pistols.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:00:04 PM EDT
We had an incident here in Dallas where the guy held his son at knife point. After a long chase that ended up in a mall parking lot. He was taken out by one shot to the head by police marksman.
Link Posted: 6/29/2001 11:37:18 PM EDT
I've seen the video several times and it seems to me that these guys were more interested in starting a shoot out than actually committing a successful bank robbery. Were they mental patients? I'm sorry, but when you walk out of the front door of a bank dressed like that, you may as well be wearing a big purple Barney outfit for all of the negative attention your going to attract. I'm not so sure these guys didn't have a death wish from the get go. The natural reaction to incoming fire is always to take cover (as the police demonstrated in near textbook fashion) No matter how much body armor you may have you're fully aware that your head is nothing more than a big juicy pumpkin to even the least of bullets, actually I'd be more worried about getting thumped in the nads. An interesting sidenote is that if these guys would have used military tactics - advancing on the police with focused fire - instead of just holding their ground there would have been massive law enforcement carnage and they may possibly have even gotten away.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:11:35 AM EDT
Was this on some cable channel or do you have to buy the video? Is there a link on the net?
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:57:56 AM EDT
The Gall Of The Year Award goes to one of these asshole's mother who sued the LAPD and LA because the officers on the scene let her sweet little baby boy bleed to death. I think it was the Slavic (?) one... YO MOMS [-!-]
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 4:23:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ACK: Greetings: Does anyone know the full list of weapons the robbers used? What was the source for full auto weapons? I recalled seeing an AK-47 with a thumbhole stock and an HK-91 (G3?) Thanks ACK
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This is off the top of my head, so it may be inaccurate: -M15 carbine (AR15 clone), illegally converted to FA -HK 91 illegally converted to FA -3 Chinese Type 56 rifles (AK47 clone; FA from the factory, illegally smuggled into US) -Numerous handguns. -Several thousand rounds of ammo. The first one to die was killed by a simultaneous shots. One was a self-inflicted gunshot wound from a 9mm pistol. The second was a 100 yard or so shot to the neck from an LAPD SWAT officer shooting an MP5. The SWAT shot severed the spine. Both wounds were fatal, so it is a toss-up as to who killed him. At the time, LA issued 9mm pistols and buckshot. Since then, officers can carry .45s. Some specially trained officers also carry slugs or M16A1 rifles. LAPD got the rifles from the Army. They are modified to fire semi only. Its been a couple of years, so if I got anything wrong, I am sure someone will correct me.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 5:44:43 AM EDT
I've also never met a cop who can shoot. Another copy finally told me why cops can't shoot. Everybody here on thie board enjoys shooting and prides himself/herself with good accuracy and technique. We enjoy going to the range and shooting 1/2 inch groups at 100 yrds. Cops however don't enjoy shooting. For them shooting is just another chore in their job. Just another burden for them to bear on the road to retirement. They take no pride or achieve no pleasure from shooting well. Kinda like a homeowner view taking out the garbage.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 5:53:03 AM EDT
"The Gall Of The Year Award goes to one of these asshole's mother who sued the LAPD and LA because the officers on the scene let her sweet little baby boy bleed to death." No, I am sorry... The Award goes to the folks that tried to sue HK about "full auto military rifle" used in this incident. Never mind it was an illegal conversion. I think they lost, but not sure. Anyone know anymore about it?
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 5:56:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 11:28:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2001 11:29:55 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Sorry, it was PO Torres I was reffering to. I knew that suspect #1 was hit as he killed himself, and the the news reffered to it as a "sniper shot". Sorry if I created confusion. I believe at least some of those weapons had been confiscated and returned to those 2, appx. 1 yr before the shootout. Supposedly the were on multiple drugs at the time of the shooting(s) so that may explain the "walk around and shoot" tactic. The second suspect took about an hour to bleed out. He probably should have gotten medical care sooner.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:02:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2001 12:01:25 PM EDT by ClearFire]
Those cops were brainless fucking morons! You make the call: What fucking body armor is gonna stop a 3500 pound police "assault vehicle"? When the Keystone cops rolled up in that car (the one where "Hollywood" gets out of the car dressed in his "tactical shorts") just think what would of happened if the driver had mashed the accelerator to the floor and had continued on. He would have flattened at least one of them. Place it "R" for reverse and repete untill the bad guys are dead! That falls along the lines of Reg Denny of the LA riots, the guy who was pulled from the drivers seat of his FULLY LOADED 18 WHEELER , the one carrying the load of crushed ROCKS! Had it been me I would have dropped it into first gear and driven over "Football Williams". Instead of Denny having his head bashed in by that pile of shit, good ole "football" would have been deflated. No one thinks about using the weapons at hand.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:26:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ClearFire: Those cops were brainless fucking morons! You make the call: What fucking body armor is gonna stop a 3500 pound police "assault vehicle"? When the Keystone cops rolled up in that car (the one where "Hollywood" gets out of the car dressed in his "tactical shorts") just think what would of happened if the driver had mashed the accelerator to the floor and had continued on. He would have flattened at least one of them. Place it "R" for reverse and repete untill the bad guys are dead! No one thinks about using the weapons at hand.
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Yeah I hope they find those guys, wait those guys are dead. What if they went around the corner not expecting him to be where he was and the driver panics? I'm sure "tactical shorts" explained to the driver that his parking spot was not good for any number of reasons. Plus people react different in a split second under fire then they might otherwise. Police officers generally don't get a 6 hour block of "use of the police vehicle to flatten suspects". Police officers are told to only use things/methods they have received training in.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:42:39 PM EDT
NO-AR-:(, Just what are you saying? You are saying that the LAPD didn't have enough brains between 5 of them in one car to make a decision to run the fuckers over? Yea, I guess you are right.
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 12:47:59 PM EDT
I think what I said was really clear, would smaller words help?
Link Posted: 6/30/2001 3:39:26 PM EDT
I've repeatedly hit 1 gallon milk jugs with a 9mm handgun, from distances up to and beyond 100 yards. About the size of a BG's head. The police should have at least tried. I was just a few blocks from the shootout when it was happening. If I would've known, things might have ended up differently.
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