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Posted: 12/23/2001 11:23:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2001 11:16:05 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
The slogan "God Bless America" will no longer be stamped on water bills in Lyon County, Nev. because a property owner complained that it is a violation of the separation of church and state, reports the Reno Gazette-Journal . Lynn Arndell, district general manager for the Stagecoach General Improvement District, said the authority received a letter from property owner John Messina complaining that the phrase was offensive. "You have irreparably violated my civil rights by using public resources to promote religion," wrote Messina, a self-described atheist who lives in San Jose, Calif., and owns property in Lyon County. "I am offended that Christians have used this tragedy from the World Trade Center to promote their own religion," he said. Arndell said many of the residents of the small community were "irate" to hear the slogan had been forced off the bill. "A lot of our customers just shook their heads when they heard about it," she said.
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It's good enough to be printed on all US currency, but it offends one atheist in Nevada. So away it goes. Funny how this athiest immediately blames "Christians" for taking advantage of 9-11 by printing this non-denominational statement of "In God We Trust" on a water bill. ........... And ANOTHER thing!! TODAY is the FIRST time all season that ANY department store cashier has actually said "Have a Merry Christmas" to me. Usually it's the milk-toast generic catch-all "Happy Holidays". I was so suprised to hear "Merry Christmas" from this store employee that I was speechless for a moment waiting for the world to come to an end (as the ACLU/atheists would have you believe would happen if anyone uttered the word "Christmas" in public setting). ....... [b]Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em. [/b] [;D]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:07:44 AM EDT
If you really realize who Almighty God is you wouldn't want his holy name tied down to the actions of the government that now controls America. Its about money and oil in America,its about worship of God in Heaven. You can drive around with your "God bless America" bumper sticker on your car, but its really going to happen if the guy in the car worships the image of Christ in his family life.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:13:59 AM EDT
"irreparably"
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Yeah, right. Get A Life goes here! [IMG]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/aahmed/tongue.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:36:05 AM EDT
[rolleyes]The goBernment/ruling authority, has never used religion to muster the forces to fight over land or religious ""BELIEFS""[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:41:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 8:30:00 PM EDT by M4]
I know it means different things to different people, but for me, I trust in no god what so ever. To me it's simply a historic statement truly believed by the vast majority of those defining our currency at the time. I trust in god no more than I trust in thor, or zeus, or any other "diety".
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:59:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: [b]Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em. [/b] [;D]
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I'm an atheist. You wish to shoot me? Two words that aren't related to those evil atheists out there...HOLY WARS. The Macallan, peace to you and your family and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:08:24 AM EDT
If he can find the words "separation of church and state" anywhere in our Constitution, he's welcome to sue anyone he wants to.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:31:52 AM EDT
There is nothing in Nevada but sinners anyway. They don't deserve to be blessed by anyone nor anything, fictional or not.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:32:14 AM EDT
Post from The_Macallan
Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em.
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Well, not yet at least! Post from Armaliter -
Two words that aren't related to those evil atheists out there...HOLY WARS.
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Oh, trust me on this ArmaLiter, the athesists of the last century (Stalin, Hitler, Mao) have killed many, many more folks in their 'holy wars' that all of Christendom in its history! What would you estimate the carnage from that unholy trinity to be? Maybe 100 million? Or more? As a matter of fact, the atheists in our own nation are waging a 'holy war' against Judaism and Christianity, as witnessed by that article cited at the top of this thread. And insofar as the War on Unborn Babies is concerned, only atheists, I assume, would have the 'courage' to untimely rip babies from their mothers' wombs. Surely no one who really believed in a God and a hereafter would bloody their hands in such a manner. In the Old Testament, we are told that 'God hates those whose hands shed innocent blood.' Proverbs 6:17. Well, I can't imagine more innocent blood than that of an unborn baby! Can you? Eric The(Judeo-Christian)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:46:19 AM EDT
E.T.Hun, When I heard you were in "Divinity" school I mistakenly thought you were learning to make "candy!"
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:42:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:27:32 AM EDT
[b]1Gunrunner: There is nothing in Nevada but sinners anyway. They don't deserve to be blessed by anyone nor anything, fictional or not.[/b] I certainly hope you are kidding.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:36:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:43:55 AM EDT
[:D] I'll be there the first of Feb. for a little sinning of my own; [i]If ya know what I mean.[/i]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:36:44 AM EDT
Eric the Hun... Putting this nicely, please put down your bible, forget for just one moment the religious quotes you learned and go back to your post and re-read it. Where do you get Hitler was an Atheist? From a book? Common sense will tell you if Hitler was an Atheist who wanted to destroy religion, he would of targeted all religious people. But he didn't, did he? In fact he targeted mainly Jews. So if you look at it closely, Hitler would had to been more of a Christian to target Jews, because of the difference of Jewish belief. If Hitler was an Atheist, according to you, he would of targeted mainly Christians, which he didn't. And where do you find that Atheists are more prone to having abortions than religious people are? The women who go to have an abortion are of all walks of life, race, ethnic group AND religion. It has been religious fanatics who go into abortion clinics and killed the doctors, who may just of been religious people themselves who had a different view than other religious people. So if you take the number of deaths involved with abortion and by whom they were caused by, I would say that Atheists are the minority here. And for the religious right to prevent scientists to use stem cell research to help find cures and ways of preventing sickness and death only adds the religious people in causing more possible deaths and a longer life for people. So what terrible thing have Atheists done more than any religious group? We bitched to have the word GOD removed from public places as GOD isn't a belief of everyone.(Personally, I don't care if God is on my money or if there is a Nativity scene on the front lawn of the City Hall, I'm not offended) Eric the Hun, I'm not judging you at all, but you will find that there is much more deceit and hypocrisy in religion than there is in non-religion beliefs. I guess the fact that I don't believe in the after-life makes me look at this life much more closer and much more seriously. [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:20:05 AM EDT
Well, ArmaLiter, you must not have been around when we had the big 'Was Hitler an Atheist' Roundtable several months back. I simply posted every anti-Christian thing that Hitler or his cronies ever said. I note that you didn't mention Stalin and Mao as [b]not[/b] being atheists, so I guess you're punting on those two. Let me see if I can find that thread. Be right back. In the meanwhile, do you think that Christianity has nothing to say about abortion? Sure, some Christians support abortions, but that is simply their mistake. As Mother Theresa once said: [b]'It is a poverty of spirit to say that a baby must die in order for me to live the sort of life I want.'[/b] I believe that Jesus is mightily saddended when anyone has an abortion, pays for an abortion, supports a pro-abortion political platform, performs an abortion, consents to an abortion, or otherwise encourages abortion. There's a line in a Ray Bolz song, entitled 'What Was I Supposed to Be' that goes like this: 'Even if I'd been born imperfect, Why couldn't my parents see, That I'd have been made perfect when You came back for me.' So excuse me, while I go find out about the anti-Christ known as Hitler. Eric The(BeRightBack)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:47:30 PM EDT
Eric the Hun To tell you the truth, I never really studied on Stalin and Mao. They could of been Atheists like you said. But that is just two (maybe three if you really wish to believe Hitler was an Atheist also), people who were atheists involved in leading world wars and I'm just saying IF these men were Atheists. There is a much longer history of war and evil than just World War 1 and 2. Go back in history beyond that and that is where all your wars involving Christians conquering countries and turning them into Christian nations. You say it is a "mistake" for Christians to have abortions. But what? It's a down right evil sin if Atheists have abortions? No, just like Christians, the Atheist woman made a mistake. Sure, Christians have a say on abortion. It's called pro-choice. If a Christian believes abortion is wrong then they don't have to have an abortion, but now to ask you, "Do you think it's right for one group of people with a certain belief to tell another group of people with a different belief what they can and cannot do?" For the record, I don't believe in any woman I'm with having an abortion unless it was life threatening. But, that's just me. I notice that much of your response is based from quotes from books or from knowledge that comes from books. I would be more impressed if your responses came from the heart or just a plain thought from what you see in everday life rather than have your beliefs be based on words from a book. Yes, some books can be very full of facts, but one shouldn't use books or quotes from books or famous people to base EVERYTHING or a majority they say or believe in. I admit that I use quotes, once in awhile, such as the one from Edmund Burke at the bottom of my posts. But that quote applies to everyone and everything. It makes sense to all who reads it. You don't have to be of a certain religion to understand it. It applies to all good people. I'm not posting here anymore as this subject is boring me and I'm sick of religious debates. I only posted here because, that "Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em" line really got me boiling coming from a so-called believer in a loving god. Peace! [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:00:34 PM EDT
The "offended" owns property in Dayton (I think)but is from and lives in San Jose California. The weak wimpass Lyon county DA "let it go". The average people are really pissed!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:31:16 PM EDT
To: [b]ArmaLiter[/b] From the Infidel.org website (of all places), at [url]http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-hitler.html[/url]: Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party. However, he retained his belief in reincarnation, and his conviction that there was some supreme creative force whose will he was enacting. 'The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity ... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.' 'I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. [b]We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.'[/b] [Quoted from Hitler's "Table Talks" with Bormann, in "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny" by Allan Bullock.] Hmmmm, wonder what he meant by a 'fairy story invented by the Jews.' More to come! [>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:36:32 PM EDT
Post from ArmaLiter -
"Do you think it's right for one group of people with a certain belief to tell another group of people with a different belief what they can and cannot do?"
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Well it all depends on what the belief might be, now doesn't it. Do you think it's right for people who believe that the Second Amendment means just what it says to tell another group of people with a different belief that the anti-gun laws that they are trying to pass are uncontitutional and cannot be enforced? Eric The(AllThingsInPerspective)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:39:44 PM EDT
Screw that guy. And if you perform a simple people search on Yahoo, I'm sure you can find the guy and give him a call to voice your concerns.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:47:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: [[b]Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em. [/b] [;D]
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What happened to love thy neighbor and all that crap-o-la? Selective interpretations of the bible, what a funny, hypocritical and silly little mind set. I for one, as an atheist, take no offense to anyone uttering "Merry Christmas" at all. Why would I? Hell, for all I care, you can celebrate the birth of the Loch Ness monster and have a national party. I'm not an ACLU'er by ANY means. But at the same time, this aint Saudi Arabia or Syria where everyone is of one religious denomination for all purposes. God means absolutely nothing to me, and that should be as understood and respected as your right to practice whatever religion you happen to choose. Don't get your panties in a knot when someone who believes differently than you expresses themselves. The Christian lobby has been shooting their mouths and agendas for years, and affecting life and laws of MANY people who do not share in their religious agenda. When someone outside YOUR "faith" does it it's SO horrifying? Give me a break. Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 2:59:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: [[b]Yeah, atheists - can't please 'em, can't shoot 'em. [/b] [;D]
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Don't get your panties in a knot when someone who believes differently than you expresses themselves. The Christian lobby has been shooting their mouths and agendas for years, and affecting life and laws of MANY people who do not share in their religious agenda. When someone outside YOUR "faith" does it it's SO horrifying? Give me a break. Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however to let the opinions of perhaps 0.5% of the population set the rules for how the other 99.5% lives is just plain stupid. Especially when there is no issue of separation here. It's the stinkin' water company for God's sake.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:14:22 PM EDT
Tag me when you're tired, Hun, I'll get into these guys!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:28:57 PM EDT
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however to let the opinions of perhaps 0.5% of the population set the rules for how the other 99.5% lives is just plain stupid. Especially when there is no issue of separation here. It's the stinkin' water company for God's sake. "the stinkin' water company"?...now you've done it...
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:49:12 PM EDT
Let's face it you guys, you couldn't have hacked it living in the 19th Century! Or for much of the 20th either. So sorry that we were at one time a Christian nation, now that we're not any longer, at least according to some, we are ever so much better off, aren't we? Just thank the Lord or the Cosmic Muffin or whoever, that the United States was a Christian nation long enough to get our God-given rights down on paper. Now that the Lord has done all the heavy lifting, y'all can sit back on your tails and rest! Eric The(Yeah,Right!AndIDoMean'Tails')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 3:54:01 PM EDT
As a public utility it really has the same laws applied to it as the government. Lets keep the Church pure. Keep the government out. If we can't do that government employees will start to think of themselves as more important than they really are. Pretty soon they are writing sermons about safety belt use and the merits of the freedom to abort. We want sermons about Christ. "Does He still feel the nails? Every time I fail? Have I crucified you Jesus with my sin?"
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:04:48 PM EDT
Let's face it you guys, you couldn't have hacked it living in the 19th Century! Or for much of the 20th either. So sorry that we were at one time a Christian nation, now that we're not any longer, at least according to some, we are ever so much better off, aren't we? Just thank the Lord or the Cosmic Muffin or whoever, that the United States was a Christian nation long enough to get our God-given rights down on paper. Now that the Lord has done all the heavy lifting, y'all can sit back on your tails and rest! And it's been written by the psychologist Paul Vitz, in his [i]Faith of the Fatherless[/i], that a common thread running among atheists is a problem with Fathers - not the heavenly one, but their very own. Eric The(IsThereAnyBasisForSuchAViewAsHis?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:10:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 4:02:51 PM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
And to think I was considering changing my signature line to "Mary, did you know that your Baby Boy will cost millions of our sons and daughters their lives?"
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:11:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:11:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 4:06:40 PM EDT by NSFJojo]
There's a good reason no publically funded or goverment institution should every commit to any sort of religion or religion based message on any of there papers. The seperation of church and state almost guarantees the freedom which are NOT given by God, but by humanity. The human as a individual has all the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, he needs no God to "grant" him these rights. They are the rights given to him to live, love and prosper within in his own means and ways. The religious right is just as dangerous to individuals as the liberal left. Look what the Taliban did to human rights "under religion" or the Catholic Church. Imagine a "christian" world of no pornography, anti-bibilical writings(censorship), no dancing, no smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, no FUN. Alot of the time you will here the "Religious" crew (No offense!) say something along the lines of "If there were no religion there wouldn't be any rules, thus people will do what feels good to them" I question "Why not?" As long as I don't infringe on anothers right to lie, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I should be able to do what ever I please. A "doomsday" scenario of a world without "God" would be full of murderers and lies and theivery is bunk. You can have morals and values without a "God" to guide you. I trust in Man. Do you? [):)] NSF edit for extra readablity!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:20:31 PM EDT
Sorry, but I just gotta ask: If Hitler were so violently atheist, why were chaplains allowed in the Wehrmacht? DO NOT read into this question, just wondering.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:29:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:41:24 PM EDT
Now, however, don't get me wrong under my last post. Alot of good things have come from Religion. Garandman, EricthHun are two that come to mind. Those guys know and stick to their beliefs. That's highly commendable, in fact, that's praise-worthy. Private "religious" charities did great works for the needy public and did everything the "goverment" does now with welfare except without coercision and with more efficiency. Religion has it's high points. Can anyone answer this question:?? What is "True Christianity" [):)] NSF
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:43:12 PM EDT
Post from NSFJoJo -
The human as a individual has all the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, he needs no God to "grant" him these rights. They are the rights given to him to live, love and prosper within in his own means and ways.
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Very good, NSFJoJo, now you say these rights were 'given to him', given to him by whom? Who gave these rights to man? The Founding Fathers attributed these rights to be given by God, so they were clearly wrong in that respect. And if the Founding Fathers were wrong in that crucial respect, what other crucial matters may they have also gotten equally wrong?
The religious right is just as dangerous to individuals as the liberal left. Look what the Taliban did to human rights "under religion" or the Catholic Church. Imagine a "christian" world of no pornography, anti-bibilical writings(censorship), no dancing, no smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, no FUN.
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Well, you lost me on the Taliban thing, and I doubt you meant to disrespect the Catholic Church, but we had a 'Christian' nation here at one time, and I don't believe the Americans were throwing themselves out of multi-storied buildings because it was a Christian nation and they couldn't 'get down' with that! Were you around when we were a Christian nation, or are you simply recalling something someone once said? And insofar as the impact upon this nation of our Christian ideals, can you name another large country that has just the same amount of freedom and liberty as we do, that was not founded on Judeo-Christian principals?
You can have morals and values without a "God" to guide you.
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Sure you can. But not for long.
I trust in Man. Do you?
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Not a lick. Eric The(ButThenTrustingInManIsNotInMyJobDescripti­on)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:43:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:50:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:00:44 PM EDT
Post from Zardoz -
Sorry, but I just gotta ask: If Hitler were so violently atheist, why were chaplains allowed in the Wehrmacht?
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Oh, I am quite certain that chaplains were permitted in the Wehrmacht and that the Waffen SS had some Chaplains in its organizational chart as well. But what kind of Chaplains would they be? Ones that had taken [i]Der Hitler Eid[/i] and sworn eternal allegiance, not to the Fatherland, not to the Army, but to the person of Adolf Hitler! Here is an excerpt from the Association of Contemporary Christian Historians discussing the role of chaplains in the Wehrmacht - at: [url]http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/akz/akz9712.htm[/url] "A good study of the German chaplaincy would be a useful contribution, so it is valuable to have Doris Bergen's exploration of the role of the 'Deutsche Christen" in the Wehrmacht. Many of them won appointments as chaplains, and the movement actively propagated its pro-Nazi Christianity through religious literature distributed to the troops. But there was also a confluence with the "mainline" Protestants, since almost all chaplains echoed the German Christian view that Germany's religious traditions reinforced National Socialism and that Christianity and Judaism were naturally opposed. Although the regular military chaplaincy (including the military bishop, Franz Dohrmann) was cool to the pesky German Christians, their success in infiltrating the corps was considerable. Bergen estimates that approximately [b]thirty percent[/b] of the Protestant chaplains had German Christian connections of one kind or another. Their impact was amplified by the fact that virtually no clergy associated with the Confessing Church gained admittance to the chaplaincy. They also had a voice in pastoral care to the armed forces through the officially sanctioned religious literature, much of which was produced by German Christian presses and writers, and religious propaganda which they sent directly to the front. The decision of the authorities to issue only New Testaments (i.e. omitting the Old Testament altogether) and the production of a "de- judaized" military songbook reflected the impact of their views, if not direct personal influence. The commonality of their mission with that of the Wehrmacht chaplaincy could be seen in the message of "manly Christianity", one that emphasised soldierly virtues: hardness, self-sacrifice and heroism. Since their movement was radically antitheological, they rejected considerations of doctrine as bookish, Jewish and effeminate. Instead they propagated a simple, vague notion of Christianity which allowed easy incorporation of Nazi ideology. Their image of God had "no contours"; the message had nothing to do with the basic teachings about Jesus, sin or judgement, but they still offered the promise of God. They defined the church in racial terms as a community of "pure Germans" devoted to the exclusion of Jews, Jewish influence, and "non-Aryans", that is, converts from Judaism and their descendants. They even hoped to meld Protestant and Catholic Germans into a "National Church". In short, Christianity and the church were means to this end of national unity. - continued -
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:01:41 PM EDT
[b]Ironically the ideology of the dominant Nazis, such as Bormann, Himmler, Goebbels and Hitler himself, was militantly anti-Christian.[/b] A number of measures were taken to curtail the size of the chaplaincy and to reduce its numbers. Even the German Christians were not spared as their distorted Nazi Christianity was rejected, on the grounds that their claim to synthesize National Socialism and Christianity implied that the Nazi worldview by itself was inadequate. Still they tried to prove their worth by encouraging the fighting spirit of the troops, and the more they did so, the more they were caught in the trap of helping to legitimise German brutality and strengthening their ideological opponents in the Nazi Party. In their struggle for survival, the German Christian chaplains displayed loyal commitment to the goals of Hitler's war, thereby giving assent to its atrocities, murder and genocide. In so doing, they undermined their moral authority as independent agents of the Christian message and betrayed the God they professed to serve." by Richard Pierard, Indiana State University, Terre Haute. Eric The(FindAnything,Anytime)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:13:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]Ironically the ideology of the dominant Nazis, such as Bormann, Himmler, Goebbels and Hitler himself, was militantly anti-Christian.[/b] A number of measures were taken to curtail the size of the chaplaincy and to reduce its numbers. Even the German Christians were not spared as their distorted Nazi Christianity was rejected, on the grounds that their claim to synthesize National Socialism and Christianity implied that the Nazi worldview by itself was inadequate. Still they tried to prove their worth by encouraging the fighting spirit of the troops, and the more they did so, the more they were caught in the trap of helping to legitimise German brutality and strengthening their ideological opponents in the Nazi Party. In their struggle for survival, the German Christian chaplains displayed loyal commitment to the goals of Hitler's war, thereby giving assent to its atrocities, murder and genocide. In so doing, they undermined their moral authority as independent agents of the Christian message and betrayed the God they professed to serve." by Richard Pierard, Indiana State University, Terre Haute. Eric The(FindAnything,Anytime)Hun[>]:)]
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Your Ericness, how did that "bastion of Christian faith," the Catholic church perform during and in the years just after the war ended ? (ItIsGettinClosetoChristmasDayandWeGottaStopT­hisStuff)
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:27:04 PM EDT
Post from NSFJoJo -
What is "True Christianity"
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Now that's an interesting question! Let's see, in Matthew 22:36, et seq., Jesus would say that [red][b]'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/b][/red] So loving God first, and your neighbor, second, is true Christianity. James, the Lord's brother, said this: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." James 1:26-28. Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:31:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 5:35:31 PM EDT by NSFJojo]
Great! I love a high-spirited discussion!! Eric the Hun was correct in pointing out
Very good, NSFJoJo, now you say these rights were 'given to him', given to him by whom?
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Very good in correcting me on not being clear. Again, another commendable attribute. It was given to him by right of his humanity. Just being born gives you these rights. Whether you abuse them or use them wisely is up to you. If God had to grant these rights you could just say this person is a "heathen" "Sub-Human" and therefore enslave him. Brings to mind the "The black slave is only counted as 1/3 of a person" of the South. The reference to the Taliban was not terrorist related, more of human rights and freedom related. Under the guise of religion they kept women from being educated, banned movies etc... I only used it because it can bring to mind a better visual of a religion being oppressive. Catholic church reference pointed towards the Crusades etc... (kinda reminds you of the Jihad muslims commit to. Crusaders were offered a one way ticket to heaven if they were killed) [):)] NSF Edit for grammar.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:35:32 PM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
how did that "bastion of Christian faith," the Catholic church perform during and in the years just after the war ended ?
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Infinitely better than the pagans did, my dear friend! As a matter of fact the Nazis were playing the part of the pagans during World War II! Talk about a [i][b]Goetterdammerung[/b][/i]! It's just too easy to identify the Nazis with their pagan co-religionists, because they identified themselves with paganism, pagan symbols and rituals! The Christian nations were well represented by the US, Britain, Australia and New Zealand. Any doubt? Eric The(CheckItOut!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:46:09 PM EDT
I wouldn't attribute the greatness of this nation to Christianity. I would attribute the greatness to Capitalism. BTW Eric will you be at the black rifle convention? [):)] NSF
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:03:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from 5subslr5 -
how did that "bastion of Christian faith," the Catholic Church "IN GERMANY" perform during and in the years just after the war ended ?
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Eric The(CheckItOut!)Hun[>]:)]
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I have corrected my original post to include "In Germany." After the holidays please tell me about the Vatican's exceptional caring when focused on the "Jewish Problem" during and after WWII. But for now just the
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:04:15 PM EDT
Post from NSFJoJo -
It was given to him by right of his humanity. Just being born gives you these rights. Whether you abuse them or use them wisely is up to you.
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You mean it's innate? It comes with just being born? Liberty and freedom are congenital? Then how come it took mankind so damn long to become free? To create 'a more perfect union'?It [u]should[/u] then be the most natural thing in the world. Freedom should be the natural condition of man and yet, if history has taught us anything, man is seldom free. And this includes man in the wild, away from civilization. Man in the jungle is a brute beast. Just like every other animal. His life is nasty, brutal, and short. He breeds with everything that's even remotely like himself.[:D] Wives, sisters, daughters, mothers, or other men's wives, just about anything that stands upright, and a few that don't.
If God had to grant these rights couldn't you just say this person is a "heathen" and thus enslave him?
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Why, God grants everyone these rights, it is up to us to recognize that these rights exist. And BTW, when the Founding Fathers were waxing eloquent of a Creator endowing His creatures with certain inalienable rights, those persons who were being counted as 3/5 of a person for purposes of apportionment, were clearly among His creatures who were similarly endowed with the same inalienable rights. The Founding Fathers just didn't seem to recognize that fact and it was convenient for everyone at the time that they didn't. Else we would never have had a nation to begin with!
I only used it because it can bring to mind a better visual of a religion being oppressive.
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And yet the Founder of our common religion, Jesus, was the very first advocate of women's rights. While the Taliban are convinced that they will be having sexual relations with 70 'black-eyed' virgins when they enter Paradise, Jesus truthfully said [red][b]'In Heaven there is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Greek'[/b][/red]. At a time when rabbinical Judaism belittled the state of women, some of Jesus' best friends were women. At a time when no rabbi would address even a word to a woman, Jesus taught the Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well for an entire afternoon!
Catholic church reference pointed towards the Crusades etc...
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And just what was wrong with the Crusades? They were simply an attempt by well-meaning Christian kings and princes to [b]recover[/b] Christian lands taken from them by the Moslems! Between 700 and 1000 AD, Christendom had been shrunk by one-third in area due to the Islamic invasions. Should the Christian Church have sat idly by and let Islam swallow it up whole? Did you forget that as late as the 1650s, the Turks were on the outskirts of Vienna in Central Europe? That was the 3rd time in 300 years that Vienna had been threatened by Islam! Surely you don't think we should have quietly surrendered to them? Think Taliban in spades! Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:23:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:37:48 PM EDT
From the text of the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, [b]that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights[/b], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Now, what part of 'endowed by their Creator' did I not understand?
Regardless, humans have certain qualities; among them the [u]desire[/u] for Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
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'Desire' it all they wish, but humans cannot give themselves anything without the allowance of a Divine Creator a/k/a God! Eric The(EndowedByHisCreator)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:55:53 PM EDT
And that is why ErictheHun just plains "sets the smack down" He rules, simply put. Anyway, you asked:
Then how come it took mankind so damn long to become free?
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The answer is simply. Mysticism. The period when mysticism ruled is known as the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages. I know you know of the conditions prevalent during that period, Eric. The Renaissance broke the rule of the mystics. Renaissance means "Rebirth", the rebirth of mans mind, of Reason. Western Civilization was the child and product of reason- via ancient Greece. In all other civilizations reason was the handmaiden of mysticism. Observe the Results. However the western civilization has been dominated although imperfectly and at rare intervals by Reason. Observe the results. Most of the above was from Ayn Rands "Philosphy: Who needs it?" paraphrased. Mysticism is slavery. It is accepting allegations without evidence or proof. Either apart from or against ones senses. It is the claim to have non-sensory, non definable, non indentifiable means of knowledge. Reason is Freedom. Reason is the faculty which perceives, identifies and integrates the material recieved by your mind. Reason intergrates mans perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions. It's what pulled us out of the Dark Ages and made this country great. Reason is Capitalism, Capitalism NOT christianity made us free, rich and culturally abundant. After we killed Capitalism, through goverment control and other causes we bankrupted outselves morally. We are now paying the costs of this bankrupcy. Look what was going on during the Middle Ages. Slavery, Executions without Trial, etc... It's the neo-mystics that are bringing them back. [):)] NSF That's why it took so long to be free. We kept Reason locked in the closet with his twin brother Capitalism.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:37:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:37:23 PM EDT
Hoo boy - I'm afraid I gotta jump in here... Let me see, the complaint is by a landowner with an OUT OF STATE residency (I'll have to look this guy up, he's in the town I'm in...) He quotes the misnomer of "seperation of church and State," And, this complaint is directed toward a public utility, which is usually NOT an agency of the government - Federal, State, or local. Stop me if I'm wrong here... Now, this individual is so offended by "God Bless America" that he has sstill done NOTHING about "In God we trust" printed on all of our currency, and that sessions of Congress are opened with a prayer... "The seperation of church and State" is a misunderstanding of the First Amendment, where "the Congress shall pass no laws concerning the establishment or practise of Religion" (I may have misquoted, please tell me if I have...) This carries the concept of seperation strictly to regulation. Now, I am more a mild-mannered Agnostic than anything else. "God" is a convenient label to apply to a concept that is literally too great for the human mind to comprehend. If that divinity should choose to help me/us in a time of need, I shall be grateful. I will not presume upon said divine agency at will, as I try to be more independent upon that. I also exercise the worship of divinity in my own way - usually by using the skills and talents that I have been able to develop and foster as a result of divine gifts. G-d is with me when I put the fifth round thru the same hole as 200 years. G-d is with me when I created another "empowered" individual. G-d is with me when I teach another person a new skill. I don't need a church for that. Tell Lyon County to carry on and ignore the ravings of a single crackpot that don't live there in the first place. Besides, "God Bless" is not necessarily a purely Christian sentiment - and the name of the Deity can be substituted for whatever culture you are addressing - Allah, Iehovah, YHWH, or whomever. "In God we trust - All others pay cash." FFZ
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