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Posted: 4/8/2006 4:43:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 4:45:02 PM EST by cjklekar]
Today while I was refueling my POV, I observed a gentleman two pumps over puffing away on a cigar while he was refueling his car.

I politely asked him to get rid of the cigar; he responded by tossing his cigar to the ground and giving me a 'go to hell' look. I thanked him and went back to refueling my car.

Well, the gentleman couldn't leave well enough alone. As he walked past me to pay for his gas, he said that 'you can put out a cigar in gasoline, I know because I used to work in a petroleum refinery.' I said, 'Thank you, I didn't know that.' and put him on ignore.

Needless to say, I fought back an urge to go into 'police mode' and jack this guy up with his smart-a** remark, but I remained quiet because I couldn't cite the law here in Texas that says 'NO SMOKING WHILE PUMPING FUEL'.

Any law scholars that can help me out and cite the law in Texas? Any fire marshals from Texas who can tell me if this guy if full of it?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:45:49 PM EST
If you find it let me know. I've never seen a written law on this before.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:16:28 PM EST
check the fire marshall code as well
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:38:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:56:27 PM EST
I would have said f you!
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:59:14 PM EST
County Fire Marshal around here
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:00:43 PM EST
It's in the same section that says that you shouldn't stand in the middle of the freeway. Common fucking sense says to keep fire away from gasoline. I swear, stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:12:46 PM EST
The law of Common Sense should be enough to tell us that fire around combustibles is a bad thing.
You CAN put out fire with gasoline, as long as the gasoline is ALL in liquid form, and NO vapors form.
Guess what, that gasoline smell when you fill your car up? Thats vapor. The guy was a dumbass.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:15:46 PM EST
I don't know about a cigar, but you can't light gas with a cigarette, I've tried it many times and it will not work, no matter what you do.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:28:14 PM EST
originally posted by NorthernBornRebel

I don't know about a cigar, but you can't light gas with a cigarette, I've tried it many times and it will not work, no matter what you do.



OK, so was I over-reacting? Normally, if I'm in uniform and I ask someone to get rid of the smoke while pumping gas, I don't get any lip...I just want my ducks in a row in case I have to go hands on with someone next time. I don't think you can arrest someone for being a dumba** and making a smarta** remark.

If your logic is correct, then why have the no smoking signs plastered all over the fuel pumps?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:31:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 6:32:52 PM EST by txgp17]
He's a dumbass.

Gasoline vapors between 2-8% plus oxygen at 21% plus one schmuck with a lit cigar equals a big bang.

Another thing, a pool of gasoline might put out the cig but your not dealing with a pool of it at the gas station, you're dealing with massive amounts of vapors, and vapors are what kill people, not burning pools.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:42:29 PM EST
I wouldn't smoke a cigarette, but cigarettes are cheap. If I had a fine cigar I paid good money for, I'd continue smoking it because I (as a former pyro) know it won't ignite gasoline.

Now, hear my story:

I saw the epitome of stupidity. No questions about it, dumbest man I've ever seen in my life.

When I was about 10, my mom was fueling gas, I was outside the car next to her. All of the sudden, a man in flies into the gas station with a pickup truck... the bed is in flames. He had flaming garbage in the bed of his truck. He pulled next to the PROPANE (definitely more flamable than gasoline) TANK and tried to use the tiny hose (for filling your radiator) to put out the fire in his truck bed.

The attendant ran out and dropped more F-bombs than any 10 year old has ever heard in his life... basically, "What the **** are you ******* thinking you ******* idiot, get the **** out of here, ******* now!"

Thank God, as my mom, all the other customers and I were running from the propane tank, a fire truck pulled into the gas station. They had seen the flaming pickup truck driving the opposite way on the freeway while the firetruck was returning from a call. They had the fire out within 30 seconds. They also ripped the man a new one like I've never heard.

I'll never forget that man as being the stupidest person I've ever witnessed.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:47:46 PM EST
For what it's worth, it wasn't a fine cigar, because I been around fine, expensive cigars...it was one of those blounts or swisher sweets. Why not just leave it in the ash tray of your car while you step out to refuel your car?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:50:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By cjklekar:
originally posted by NorthernBornRebel

I don't know about a cigar, but you can't light gas with a cigarette, I've tried it many times and it will not work, no matter what you do.



OK, so was I over-reacting? Normally, if I'm in uniform and I ask someone to get rid of the smoke while pumping gas, I don't get any lip...I just want my ducks in a row in case I have to go hands on with someone next time. I don't think you can arrest someone for being a dumba** and making a smarta** remark.

If your logic is correct, then why have the no smoking signs plastered all over the fuel pumps?


OK, I don't think you were over reacting. While it is not possible to light gasoline with a cigarette (Mythbusters tested it, and I tried it myself as well) I would still be uneasy if someone had anything lit around gasoline.

BTW, if someone goes hands on with you over a lit cigar/cigarette at a gas station, draw down-get them out of the gene pool.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:55:07 PM EST
its more of a LAW of physics. gasoline in liquid form won't burn..sure. fumes on the other hand, will burn like a muh-fugguh.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:57:01 PM EST
The correct code section would have been "Littering" for throwing down the cigar.
The cigar will not light the vapor of liquid gasoline, but an open flame will.

He is still a dumbass and I think the law you might have been looking for is called, "Darwin's Law".
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:58:10 PM EST
It's the law that says if continue to jeapordize my life after I ask you polietly to stop smoking while I am fueling my vehicle, my 6'3" 320lbs is going to STOMP YOUR ASS.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:02:18 PM EST
You have no ENDANGERMENT staute?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:03:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 7:06:23 PM EST by wildearp]

Originally Posted By cjklekar:
originally posted by NorthernBornRebel

I don't know about a cigar, but you can't light gas with a cigarette, I've tried it many times and it will not work, no matter what you do.



OK, so was I over-reacting? Normally, if I'm in uniform and I ask someone to get rid of the smoke while pumping gas, I don't get any lip...I just want my ducks in a row in case I have to go hands on with someone next time. I don't think you can arrest someone for being a dumba** and making a smarta** remark.

If your logic is correct, then why have the no smoking signs plastered all over the fuel pumps?



When you get those evil implied-law breakers under control, you can start on the ones that use their cell-phones while fueling. After that, there is the most dangerous "woman wearing nylon panties" that might make a static charge and blow up half the city while fueling.

Myth busters did a show on this "fueling hazard". Take some days off and get caught up on your TV.

I sure hope you find better things to worry about than pissing off the public.

(family full of cops. yes, you are over the top.)

Unless you are a Fire Marshal, I doubt you would have much to say about this, and if you wake up a FM to waste his time with it..........well good luck.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/TIA30A-03-1.pdf
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:05:50 PM EST
I think that law is filed under "Common Sense."

The fire triangle consists of Oxgygen, Fuel, and Ignition. The rest is fully dependant upon the flashpoint of the chemical in question. In the case of gasoline - it's below 100 degrees fahrenheit.

Thus...that guy is an absolute shit for brains and I'd rather you have responded....

"Why don't you work at a petroleum refinary anymore???"

To put your life and/or anyone else's life at risk because that darwin candidate can't handle the law of physics...doesn't make sense.

That was one of those scenarios where it would have been fully permissable to bust his head and shoot his dog....

Upwind of the gas pumps...of course.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:18:35 PM EST
Sorry, we can't enforce common sense.

No law...no enforcement.

Same signs here...........no law on the books about it. No law about using your cell phone either.

If you go hands on without an actual law to justify your actions, you better break out your checkbook and hope you keep your job.

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:27:07 PM EST

Myth busters did a show on this "fueling hazard". Take some days off and get caught up on your TV.

I sure hope you find better things to worry about than pissing off the public.


You're right, on my days off I don't watch too much TV; can't believe a lot of what's on it anyway;
Sorry, my job does involve sometimes pissing off the public if it involves the public safety, mine included. Lot's of folks don't like a police officer getting in their business, do they?

I can't help it if you think I'm over the top...but I guess I'll feel better now that fires started by people smoking while refueling has been debunked on Mythbusters.

Now maybe someone will get rid of the no smoking signs and stop engine signs on the pumps.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:27:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By RDP:
Sorry, we can't enforce common sense.

No law...no enforcement.

Same signs here...........no law on the books about it. No law about using your cell phone either.

If you go hands on without an actual law to justify your actions, you better break out your checkbook and hope you keep your job.




Who do you make the check out to? I could supplement my income around my neck of the woods!

But seriously, there has to be a 'common sense' factor that can justify behavior by LEO's that's clearly necessary....
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 7:39:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 7:39:57 PM EST by DigDug]
I was working the air show a few summers ago and there are big huge no smoking signs all over the place because there are fuel tanks around. As people entered the airport area they were told they had to leave outside the airport fencing to smoke. No exceptions.

We're standing by the gate watching people and we see a lady standing over by the big ass aviation fuel tanks with a huge DO NOT SMOKE sign right in front of her puffing away. She was no more than 5 feet from the tanks. We yelled at her to take it outside the fence right now. I wonder if Darwin has caught up to her yet?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 8:11:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By cjklekar:

OK, so was I over-reacting? Normally, if I'm in uniform and I ask someone to get rid of the smoke while pumping gas, I don't get any lip...I just want my ducks in a row in case I have to go hands on with someone next time. I don't think you can arrest someone for being a dumba** and making a smarta** remark.


If your logic is correct, then why have the no smoking signs plastered all over the fuel pumps?



If you can't diferentate between being in uniform and out of uniform along with coming across as a asshole to john q public while not in uniform you my friend have some issues that need to be worked out.

You sure sound like you have a major chip on your shoulder and a attitude toward people.

What do you mean when you say you don't think you can "arrest someone for being a dumba** and making a smarta** remark."

Are you a sworn LEO or just a rent a cop dreaming of being a real LEO????

You go "hand on" when somebody tells you to F off over this isue you're more than likely going to end up in court and some non paid time off if you are lucky enough to keep you're job. I'd lawyer up with the nastiest hard core anti LEO lawyer in the state and go after everything you had and then some.

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 8:26:24 PM EST
I never said I came across as an a**hole, I said I was politely asking the gentleman to get rid of his smoke; I never ID'd myself as an officer. I didn't go hands on because I know that I didn't have a cite or law to back me up. That's why I let it go. My question to the original issue is if a law really exists...

BTW, I've been a LEO for over 20 years now and have never been involved in an issue as you describe. I guess my sarcasm was missed when I made the I don't think comment.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 8:43:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By cjklekar:
I never said I came across as an a**hole, I said I was politely asking the gentleman to get rid of his smoke; I never ID'd myself as an officer. I didn't go hands on because I know that I didn't have a cite or law to back me up. That's why I let it go. My question to the original issue is if a law really exists...

BTW, I've been a LEO for over 20 years now and have never been involved in an issue as you describe. I guess my sarcasm was missed when I made the I don't think comment.



Yep, I for one missed your sarcasm. Ya might want to use more smilies when being scarcastic to help avoid these kinds of issues in the future

You did say you were polite, that was never a issue with me, just the way you came off with the hands on comment and from there it went downhill at least on my part interperting what you posted.

I've got to flush the sand out of my mangina
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 8:51:00 PM EST
You realize that as soon as you thought of becoming n LEO, you became a person who could nover do anything right in the eyes of some of the bozos around here. appaarently some of them can't get over being told to sit down and shut up by some old maid teacer years ago.

BTW the Code sections are probably in your state fire codes. They are in the Uniform fire code.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:07:12 PM EST
I've been trying to research the codes here in Texas since I sat down and made my first post.

We've got so many codes that overlap and reach into different areas of bureacracies, that it could be buried anywhere.

I just seem to recall a long time ago, the signs posted on the fuel pumps either stated 'State Law' or actually had a code cited. They don't anymore.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:22:15 PM EST
Check out this link to the NFPA 30A code

Then tomorrow give your local fire inspector a call asking if you have any laws on the books against it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:39:50 PM EST
shrike9, thanks for the link; I've already seen it and saw that it was referenced in our Health & Safety Code, title Handling Flammable Materials. However, the law is very vague about how a person can violate this code and refers it to the state fire marshal.

I have a friend in San Marcos, TX who is the fire marshal for the city; I'll be giving him a call.

Thanks again for the link. I ain't such a bad guy. I think the Jim Beam is starting to talk...
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 10:32:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:
It's the law that says if continue to jeapordize my life after I ask you polietly to stop smoking while I am fueling my vehicle, my 6'3" 320lbs is going to STOMP YOUR ASS.



Hmm, I'm thinking it will take a while for your 6'3"/320 lbs to catch my 6'4"/245 lbs...... And I'm not a runner

Brian
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:15:21 AM EST
It's law in MD and posted on signs at every gas station or anywhere else where flammable products are sold.

No one would even think about smoking at any gas stations here, it's a $250 fine and you can be arrested, IIRC.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:20:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorthernBornRebel:
I don't know about a cigar, but you can't light gas with a cigarette, I've tried it many times and it will not work, no matter what you do.



I'm sure you can't. A cigarette is unlikely to stay lit long enough to cause gasoline to reach its' combustion point.

However, vapors are much more easily ignited, and who the hell wants to take a chance with this stuff anyways?

Kinda like guys who say .22's are weak, too small to kill a man, etc. How many of those guys are lining up asking to be shot with .22's ?
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:55:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By brian4wd:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
It's the law that says if continue to jeapordize my life after I ask you polietly to stop smoking while I am fueling my vehicle, my 6'3" 320lbs is going to STOMP YOUR ASS.



Hmm, I'm thinking it will take a while for your 6'3"/320 lbs to catch my 6'4"/245 lbs...... And I'm not a runner

Brian



Link Posted: 4/9/2006 7:16:40 AM EST
I've never seen a law. But I would chalk it up to common sense.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 7:19:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By justice23:

Originally Posted By brian4wd:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
It's the law that says if continue to jeapordize my life after I ask you polietly to stop smoking while I am fueling my vehicle, my 6'3" 320lbs is going to STOMP YOUR ASS.



Hmm, I'm thinking it will take a while for your 6'3"/320 lbs to catch my 6'4"/245 lbs...... And I'm not a runner

Brian






IF you are running, then your lit cig is no longer a threat to my safety, IS IT???
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:10:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 4:19:59 PM EST by pevrs114]
I'm almost positive it's in the Statewide Fire Prevention Code, for which violation is a Class 1 misdemeanor, punishable by up to $2500 and 12 months in jail.

I'll find the section, stand by.


EDIT - sorry I thought I was still in VA hometown (happens sometimes!). Not sure about TX, but pretty sure about VA. VA uses a modified version of the International Fire Code, for those curious.

As far as the science behind a cigarette lighting gasoline, it IS technically possible. A cigarette burns through smoldering combustion as opposed to flaming combustion. If the heat of the cigarette passes the Auto Ignition Point of gasoline (495*), and the vapor density of the pyrolized gasoline is between the lower and upper explosive limits, then the gasoline could indeed ignite.

The temperature of the outside part of the lit end of a cigarette without drawing is 400*, and the center is 580*. When drawing, the middle is 700*.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 3:41:14 PM EST
I spoke with my buddy who's a fire marshal for a mid-sized city. He said, for him, it's a matter of city ordinance that makes it against the law in his city.

Me being a state LEO, I couldn't enforce a city ordinance. However, he thought that there was a state statute...he will research it and forward the results to me.

He agreed that a burning cigarette will probably not ignite gasoline and the reasoning behind the NO SMOKING signs is to keep people from introducing an open flame, i.e., lighting up a cigarette while fueling an automobile. So as a precaution, no smoking, period!

He thought it was an unwise practice to smoke and fuel at the same time. He said he would either issue a citation or instanter the violator.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:49:53 PM EST
TX state LEOs can't enforce any local laws??

Not like that here in NV.......
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:24:29 PM EST
....
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:02:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By cjklekar:

Myth busters did a show on this "fueling hazard". Take some days off and get caught up on your TV.

I sure hope you find better things to worry about than pissing off the public.


You're right, on my days off I don't watch too much TV; can't believe a lot of what's on it anyway;
Sorry, my job does involve sometimes pissing off the public if it involves the public safety, mine included. Lot's of folks don't like a police officer getting in their business, do they?

I can't help it if you think I'm over the top...but I guess I'll feel better now that fires started by people smoking while refueling has been debunked on Mythbusters.

Now maybe someone will get rid of the no smoking signs and stop engine signs on the pumps.




Word:

Peer support group. Get some counseling. Don't let this obsession get out of hand.

Your radio is probably just as unsafe as the cigarette. How would you like someone drawing down on you to make you shut off your radio????? Or do you have one of the hazmat explosive environment models that is 4x the normal cop radio price? Better start shopping.

This is ARFCOM.

I don't smoke.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 2:13:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2006 2:14:56 AM EST by glocktastic]

Originally Posted By cjklekar:

Me being a state LEO, I couldn't enforce a city ordinance. However, he thought that there was a state statute...he will research it and forward the results to me.



You bet your sweet ass you can. What kind of State LEO are you in Texas?

Trooper?
TABC?
G-Warden?
University?

You need only approach the incorporated jurisdiction and ask for a ticket book and guidelines on writing a citation. Have your captain talk to their captain.

I am a State LEO and write city ordinance tickets for noise, fireworks, pissing, glass bottles where prohibited, PED violations.. (all class C)

We have ticket books from the city and after we turn them into our records dept, they are processed and sent to the city, who files them for us.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 2:21:34 AM EST
if you actually need a law to make you not smoke anything while pumping gas, you desreve to be blown the fuck up.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 2:42:04 AM EST
nfpa.org will list the national fire codes. It'll cost you though.
Fact is, all gas stations have a "no smoking" sign posted in accordance to the law, so citing the specific one is irrelevant...besides, we're not talking penal code here...fire codes are written like this:

State, <sometimes city>, structure, overall code, paragraph, section.

Hubby's been in the fire biz over 20 years and he couldn't tell you every code here. What he can tell you is if some dumbass causes a halon system to dump, especially at an hour that requires him to leave our bed, he's gonna be pissed.

Link Posted: 4/17/2006 7:22:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
nfpa.org will list the national fire codes. It'll cost you though.
Fact is, all gas stations have a "no smoking" sign posted in accordance to the law, so citing the specific one is irrelevant...besides, we're not talking penal code here...fire codes are written like this:

State, <sometimes city>, structure, overall code, paragraph, section.

Hubby's been in the fire biz over 20 years and he couldn't tell you every code here. What he can tell you is if some dumbass causes a halon system to dump, especially at an hour that requires him to leave our bed, he's gonna be pissed.




There's technically no "national fire code".

It's up to each state and locality to "adopt" one of the model codes. The most popular model codes are the International Fire Code (formed from the old BOCA code, and two other code organizations), NFPA's Fire Code, and one major one from out west.

Depending on the state, fire codes can be penal in nature.

Bottom line is, it depends on the state and locality.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 9:34:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 11:57:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By pevrs114:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
nfpa.org will list the national fire codes. It'll cost you though.
Fact is, all gas stations have a "no smoking" sign posted in accordance to the law, so citing the specific one is irrelevant...besides, we're not talking penal code here...fire codes are written like this:

State, <sometimes city>, structure, overall code, paragraph, section.

Hubby's been in the fire biz over 20 years and he couldn't tell you every code here. What he can tell you is if some dumbass causes a halon system to dump, especially at an hour that requires him to leave our bed, he's gonna be pissed.




There's technically no "national fire code".

It's up to each state and locality to "adopt" one of the model codes. The most popular model codes are the International Fire Code (formed from the old BOCA code, and two other code organizations), NFPA's Fire Code, and one major one from out west.

Depending on the state, fire codes can be penal in nature.

Bottom line is, it depends on the state and locality.



Sorry...I guess I did not word my post correctly.
For a state by state listing of codes applicable to the state you need, look here: link for state codes in one collective place

I thought this part of my post would make it clear:

State, <sometimes city>, structure, overall code, paragraph, section.

that codes are indeed state to state.
Sorry if I confused anyone.
As far as criminal penalties...that's murkier. Usually fire code violations are punishable thru the revocation of occupancy permits (you should see how many were lost after "The Station Nightclub" fire on 2/20/03 in Rhode Island)---the owners and a slew of others DO face criminal charges in the deaths of 100 people there.



Link Posted: 4/17/2006 12:00:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I want to see the law that says we must get a clean plate for every trip to the buffett



All you need is a copy of the board of health code for your city/state.

It's the same one that makes us wear shirts and shoes...otherwise, I'd go topless
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 3:13:20 PM EST
So bottoms are optional then


Most codes for fire and health are civil infractions and not criminal. I work in a state where every law is a criminal violation, yet some of the health and fire stuff is not.

I could not see the health inspector arresting the business owner because he stored some raw meat above the vegetables!!

Even then, they still aren't listed in any section, just referred to in a reference type in a single code. So, the actual local code is a direct referral to a national code.

In other words, the laws are kind of there, but have no backbone for enforcement!! The real threat is losing their license.
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