User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:23:36 AM EDT
[#1]
Poverty is a choice.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:23:56 AM EDT
[#2]
...a lot of people that are born in poverty die in it too.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:25:49 AM EDT
[#3]
I believe if all the money in the US was divided up evenly today, in 10 years poor people would be poor again.
It has nothing to do with working harder. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:26:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. I beleieve we still can do whatever we want and have success. However, I think the time is growing short. Socialism, redistribution of wealth, taxation and regulation are stifling entrepreneurship. When the .gov is standing at the finish line to steal your glory, it kinda steps on those dreams. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:26:37 AM EDT
[#5]
You may direct said Ph.D student to the book "The Millionaire Next Door". The majority of America's wealthy are self-made, often coming from very modest families –– and in many instances, impoverished beginnings.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:26:49 AM EDT
[#6]
He is too close to a phd to remain as smart as he once was.
Why does advanced education have this effect on people? |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:27:08 AM EDT
[#7]
Equality of opportunity does not mean equality of outcome. He's trying to say the first should mean the second. That's just not true. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:29:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I believe if all the money in the US was divided up evenly today, in 10 years poor people would be poor again. It has nothing to do with working harder. I'll agree to that, for the most part. Risks are what pays off. Speaking for myself, hard work has gotten me nowhere. Just older and more tired. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:29:30 AM EDT
[#9]
You can work very hard all your life digging ditches, but if that's what you limit yourself to, then don't be surprised if you don't become incredibly successful in life from it.
You can become successful from what your mind produces, not just your hands. Those who tell you differently are trying to sell the idea that success is a finite commodity, and that everyone should "share" in that success. Naturally, they want to be the ones that handle the "sharing". |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:31:02 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I believe if all the money in the US was divided up evenly today, in 10 years poor people would be poor again. It has nothing to do with working harder. I whole heartily agree with that statement! There is reason that people are poor. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:41:08 AM EDT
[#11]
You have to understand the way Academics view opportunity. To them it means everyone is equal, everyone has the same stuff, everyone gets what they desire, all the time. In otherwords to each according to their ability, to each according to their need. Ya know Socialism, Marxism all that good stuff.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:49:23 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
... "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." ... This is the reason we see foreigners from all over the world coming here, then opening small businesses that they operate - every day, all day, whatever it takes. The difference between those folks and our own welfare rat class is they know the hell they're in a better a position by working at whatever is necessary. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:52:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Poverty is a choice. No, poverty is perspective. Poverty here, ain't like poverty anywhere else in the world. TRG |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:57:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Poverty is a choice. No, poverty is perspective. Poverty here, ain't like poverty anywhere else in the world. TRG QFT. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:01:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Marxism is a hell bof a drug...
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:04:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. He is probably talking about the DATA on social mobility (I forget who collects the data, but I saw it summarized in the Economist a few months ago), that shows that the U.S. doesn't actually have the highest levels of social mobility - and that there are a number of European countries (as an example) that actually have greater levels of social mobility than the U.S. (IIRC, the measure of "social mobility" is to what extent someone's income is not predicted by their parent's level of income). |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:10:23 AM EDT
[#17]
I hope the rest of the paper goes into greater detail and analysis than that to support that statement. I am going to run with that assumption rather than think this is his conclusion. I know I've written more than a few sentences in various papers, articles, etc, that make it appear I had no brain.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:10:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. He is probably talking about the DATA on social mobility (I forget who collects the data, but I saw it summarized in the Economist a few months ago), that shows that the U.S. doesn't actually have the highest levels of social mobility - and that there are a number of European countries (as an example) that actually have greater levels of social mobility than the U.S. (IIRC, the measure of "social mobility" is to what extent someone's income is not predicted by their parent's level of income). Couldn't this be an echo of US success in the 50s-80s? If Europe is experiencing their first bulk middle class mobility, and that happened a generation ago for us, it's really an uncomparable metric. Kind of like construction stats in Indonesian cities vs US cities over the past 20 years? |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:10:52 AM EDT
[#19]
How about real life examples:
My grandmother grew up so poor that groundhogs were a main food staple. My Dad (her son) grew up so poor that he received used combat boots and an orange for Christmas when he was a kid. I grew up so poor that my Mom made me home made Jams shorts in 1986 instead of spending $20 for the real ones (we went to Disney World for vacation that year, I really didn't grow up poor). My kids have more comforts than anyone prior to the mid-20th Century could even imagine. It is called hard work and many people today are severally allergic to it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:12:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I believe if all the money in the US was divided up evenly today, in 10 years poor people would be poor again. It has nothing to do with working harder. Dont give them any ideas. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:14:12 AM EDT
[#21]
 There are plenty of 6 figure jobs out there that anyone with some hard work, dedication and some brain power can attain even if they start off poor. I know, I started with almost no help and am on my way to one. Theres nothing stopping me from making six figures by the time I'm 26 if I keep working at it. The majority of people that live dead end lives stay poor due to a lack of motivation or poor life choices. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:18:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. He is probably talking about the DATA on social mobility (I forget who collects the data, but I saw it summarized in the Economist a few months ago), that shows that the U.S. doesn't actually have the highest levels of social mobility - and that there are a number of European countries (as an example) that actually have greater levels of social mobility than the U.S. (IIRC, the measure of "social mobility" is to what extent someone's income is not predicted by their parent's level of income). Couldn't this be an echo of US success in the 50s-80s? If Europe is experiencing their first bulk middle class mobility, and that happened a generation ago for us, it's really an uncomparable metric. Kind of like construction stats in Indonesian cities vs US cities over the past 20 years? All of the studies I have seen found an underlying factor: education. Highly educated people,on average, earn more than those with less education do, on average. Highly educated people tend, on average, to marry other highly educated people (like you and your wife ). Highly educated people also tend to push their children into college, producing another generation of educated people who repeat the cycle.
Like most statistics the extremes can be very influential. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:20:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. He is probably talking about the DATA on social mobility (I forget who collects the data, but I saw it summarized in the Economist a few months ago), that shows that the U.S. doesn't actually have the highest levels of social mobility - and that there are a number of European countries (as an example) that actually have greater levels of social mobility than the U.S. (IIRC, the measure of "social mobility" is to what extent someone's income is not predicted by their parent's level of income). Couldn't this be an echo of US success in the 50s-80s? If Europe is experiencing their first bulk middle class mobility, and that happened a generation ago for us, it's really an uncomparable metric. Kind of like construction stats in Indonesian cities vs US cities over the past 20 years? I honestly do not know. Part of it may be the measure itself. When people talk about social mobility in the U.S., it is usually about people who came from poor backgrounds becoming rich. However, the measure is just about the extent to which your income is not predicted by your parent's income - thus BOTH rich people form poor backgrounds and poor people from rich backgrounds count as "social mobility" - i.e. it measures both upwards and downwards motion. When I lived in Denmark, I had friends who were solid middle class, but who came from more upper-class backgrounds - but had slipped down into the middle class because their families had squandered the family fortune. 
So if there were a measure of only upwards mobility, it's possible that the U.S. would score relatively higher, and might be near the top. Ultimately, it's an empirical quesiton and I simply don't know. I wonder if the existing data could be used, if partioned correctly. 
On the other hand, smaller and more culturally cohesive countries like the northern european ones - with very good access to higher education, and very little to no underclass of people who seem to be "locked" into poverty and welfare dependence like you see in a lot of American inner cities - may also have something to do with it. Part of the issue in the U.S. might be that it's relatively easier for people from the middle class to "climb" up to great successf, but there may be some barriers to climbing out of the low levels of poverty that make people "stickier" at the bottom. I am just guessing here - I'm not a sociologist by training.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:23:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Lets see here. Great-great grandpa was poor as dirt- check
Great uncle 1 owns an accounting firm-check Great uncle 2 owns and insurance firm-check Great uncle 3 dropped out of high school and ended up so incredibly wealthy from real estate that when he lost 2 million on a subdivision in Vegas when the bubble burst, he said "most of my money was safe. Bought that on a whim. Chump change."-check. Yeah, I seen it with my own eyes. If you don't want to be poor, then you don't have to be  |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:24:45 AM EDT
[#25]
Dude is educated indoctrinated beyond his intelligence.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:28:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Hard work is no guarantee of success. I can dig holes in my back yard all fucking day and not make a dime. Now if I invent a hole digging machine I can sell to people that actually need holes dug, we're on to something.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:47:42 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
SNIP On the other hand, smaller and more culturally cohesive countries like the northern european ones - with very good access to higher education, and very little to no underclass of people who seem to be "locked" into poverty and welfare dependence like you see in a lot of American inner cities - may also have something to do with it. Part of the issue in the U.S. might be that it's relatively easier for people from the middle class to "climb" up to great successf, but there may be some barriers to climbing out of the low levels of poverty that make people "stickier" at the bottom. I am just guessing here - I'm not a sociologist by training.
There are barriers, but not insurmountable barriers. As a middle class white dude looking at the barriers faced by the poor, I see them as the overall ghetto culture and very poor parenting. A parent with their head on straight may not be able to get themselves upwardly mobile, but they can direct their child in the right direction so the next generation is upwardly mobile. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 10:15:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: SNIP On the other hand, smaller and more culturally cohesive countries like the northern european ones - with very good access to higher education, and very little to no underclass of people who seem to be "locked" into poverty and welfare dependence like you see in a lot of American inner cities - may also have something to do with it. Part of the issue in the U.S. might be that it's relatively easier for people from the middle class to "climb" up to great successf, but there may be some barriers to climbing out of the low levels of poverty that make people "stickier" at the bottom. I am just guessing here - I'm not a sociologist by training. There are barriers, but not insurmountable barriers. As a middle class white dude looking at the barriers faced by the poor, I see them as the overall ghetto culture and very poor parenting. A parent with their head on straight may not be able to get themselves upwardly mobile, but they can direct their child in the right direction so the next generation is upwardly mobile. That's the issue at hand. Everyone is concerned with their personal upward mobility. How many of us who are not in poverty, are educated, employed, and middle class, are the products of immigrants who came here with nothing, and died with nothing? Upward mobility isn't measured in years. It's measured in generations. Anything else is exceptional. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:17:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
SNIP On the other hand, smaller and more culturally cohesive countries like the northern european ones - with very good access to higher education, and very little to no underclass of people who seem to be "locked" into poverty and welfare dependence like you see in a lot of American inner cities - may also have something to do with it. Part of the issue in the U.S. might be that it's relatively easier for people from the middle class to "climb" up to great successf, but there may be some barriers to climbing out of the low levels of poverty that make people "stickier" at the bottom. I am just guessing here - I'm not a sociologist by training.
There are barriers, but not insurmountable barriers. As a middle class white dude looking at the barriers faced by the poor, I see them as the overall ghetto culture and very poor parenting. A parent with their head on straight may not be able to get themselves upwardly mobile, but they can direct their child in the right direction so the next generation is upwardly mobile. Absolutely. Nobody is "trapped" in any one layer - but if it's just a little harder in one country versus another, then that would be detected in large-sample studies. There is obviously PLENTY of social mobility in the U.S., - I was just pointing out that the answer to the OP's question might be that this doctoral student actually read an article about these data, and that promoted the conversation. But, we are talking about small differences here. It's not like the conclusion was that paupers because zillionairres every day of the week and twice on sundays in some European countries, but everyone in the U.S. is locked into their socio-economic status. It's more the reality that all of the western democratic industrialized nations have a relatively HIGH level of social mobility, but when you pick apart the small differences between them, the data show that the U.S. is not actually at the very top, but is surpassed (by a small degree) by some countries. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:24:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. Millions of foreigners seem to find plenty of oppertunity in the USA... Which is why they all keep trying to come here - legally or otherwise... And if he thinks 'most' Americans live in poverty, he has no idea what poverty is... ONLY having 2 cars and 1 TV is NOT 'poverty'. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:35:30 PM EDT
[#31]
I have no doubt that where you end up in life has a lot to do with where you start out.
Yes, a person can work hard and make the right decisions and break out of poverty, but they can also work hard, make the right decisions and catch a few bad breaks and never get anywhere. We also have to remember that being in poverty in the US is not like being born into poverty in other countries. In the US being born into poverty doesn't mean that kids go to bed hungry because their parents can't afford food, in the US the parents of kids in poverty are given plenty of money to buy food with, via food stamps. Kids living in Poverty don't have to walk a mile to school with no backpack, they either ride a bus, or their parent drives them in one of their two or three cars. Kids in Poverty in the US aren't worried about where they are going to sleep tonight, they live in a house or apartment that is paid for by the government. Living in Poverty in the US for most who are doing it, is still a very luxurious lifestyle compared to most middle class people in other countries. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:35:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Poverty is a choice. While it often is, there are stillpeoplewho are poor due to circumstances beyond their control, or because of extenuating circumstances. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:39:55 PM EDT
[#33]
That's either true or false depending on how you define "great success" just like it's always been. Does everyone have an equal opportunity to become a billionaire? No.
There's no way in hell that we have anything near unlimited opportunity in this country. But we do have more opportunity than anywhere else, at least for the time being. The biggest threats to opportunity come from idiots trying to make everything "fair" even though it's impossible. Someone with a PhD should have better critical thinking skills. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:40:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
And if he thinks 'most' Americans live in poverty, he has no idea what poverty is...
Below is a quote from,an otherwise conservative, PHD student. I have asked for the sources that support his position. Will he be able to furnish any "facts and statistic" ? "It is comforting and idealistic to believe that we live in a country in which any person is able to achieve great success through their abilities, efforts, and choices, unfortunately such a belief is not backed by facts and statistics. Of course there are anecdotal examples of people arising from poverty to great success, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Most people in poverty, many of whom work very hard, will remain in poverty despite their best efforts." I contend that we have almost unlimited opportunity and we are held back only by the choices we make and we can be unfairly exploited only if we allow it. But he didn't say that. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:51:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Poverty is a choice. While it often is, there are stillpeoplewho are poor due to circumstances beyond their control, or because of extenuating circumstances. Yep and I'm sure that they have to bust their asses for years just to have any chance to get out of that hole and some of them never do. The problem is that busting your ass for years and sticking to it regardless of what happens is the best thing we've come up with yet. Even putting aside all the moral issues of income redistribution and social engineering it still doesn't change the fact that the only known successful method for a solution to poverty (with a proven track record) is that that poor have to really want it and they have to bust their ass. Is it fair? Hell no. But saying that it isn't fair doesn't change anything. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:57:56 PM EDT
[#36]
(sarcastic voice on) Yeah, he's right. I mean it isn't like I came from a dirt poor family, went to the oldest PRIVATE engineering school in the country, became a Field Grade Army Officer, got an MSC from one of the best Unis in the UK... (sarcastic voice off) I am not rolling in money, but I have been successful in my life because I applied myself and took advantage of opportunities that were presented to me. This cat must be getting a PhD in a liberal art and can't find a job as a professor teaching "how to feel about your feelings" or some such shit.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 2:00:12 PM EDT
[#37]
"Hard work" may or may not result in success. It depends on what you're working hard at. Odds are that if you're working hard at almost anything you won't be sleeping under a bridge, though.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 2:13:09 PM EDT
[#38]
The idea that everybody can become wealthy if they just worked hard is as workable in the real world as Communism, for the same reasons. The law may deal in equality but nature does not, and nature rules the world, like it or not.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 2:30:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Equal Outcomes FTL.
Equal OPPORTUNITY FTMFW. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 2:31:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Going from poverty to middle class is almost stupid easy these days. Going from middle class to upper class is where things get tricky. Especially since the Government starts cock punching you once they smell you're on the verge.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 2:37:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Poverty is a mindset.
Anybody who says "poor people will always be stuck in poverty" need a motivational session consisting of simultaneous swift kicks in the teeth, nuts, and ass, preferably by clones of Hulk Hogan. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:12:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Social mobility? Have we created an underclass (can't think of a better term) by, with all our welfare, making it somewhat comfortable to remain poor? Does this welfare class distort the statistics on social mobility in the US?
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:19:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Social mobility? Have we created an underclass (can't think of a better term) by, with all our welfare, making it somewhat comfortable to remain poor? Does this welfare class distort the statistics on social mobility in the US? You have hit the nail on the head, yes, there is a huge publicly supported unterklasse that live a fairly affluent middle class lifestyle, yet are counted as destitute and poverty ridden in the statistics. These people have little reason to want to change their social or economical standing, and are often willing to go out of their way to avoid anything that would increase their taxable income, which would jeopardize their current lifestyle. Being raised in the environment could cause a person to grow up with no idea of what ambition is. There are millions of people in our country that have been raised to believe that working a typical middle class job is a poor decision, because the pay is no better than what they can make not working, if they work the system correctly. Of course we aren't many generations away from the rabbits breeding themselves beyond the capability of their Hutch. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:24:49 PM EDT
[#44]
By his own admission, Larry Flynt didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it from when he was a kid. Now, the motherfucker rolls around in a gold wheelchair.
Warren Buffet started out on the school yard selling packs of gum at a once cent markup before he moved on to pinball machines in barber shops. If those two can make it, anybody can. The odds are highly against it, but if you try hard enough, you can make it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:31:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Sounds like he has been reading some Merton.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:34:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Here's another view on it (not mine).
Begin quote: (Edited latere to avoid the copyright COC vio) "Americans, I have some bad news for you: You have the worst quality of life in the developed world – by a wide margin. If you had any idea of how people really lived in Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and many parts of Asia, you’d be rioting in the streets calling for a better life. In fact, the average Australian or Singaporean taxi driver has a much better standard of living than the typical American white-collar worker. I know this because I am an American, and I escaped from the prison you call home." Excerpted from America – The Grim Truth | EFAM | Escape From America Magazine Here's the link if you have the guts to read the rest: link |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 3:47:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Here's another view on it (not mine). I'm glad that guy left. |
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