There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it!

I just hope if anybody gets killed because of BS like the above it ain't me but the people that brought it on us all.

War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight?

I want to win.  

What's America Coming Too!?

Well, its obviously not coming to a spellchecker.

Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it!

Fuck you, cocksucker. Terrorists, i.e. guerrillas not affiliated to any nation having signed the Geneva

Accords, deserve no quarter; they do not play by the rules and are therefore not allowed the luxuries of

"civilized" combat. Moreover, most terrorists are not U.S. citizens and should not be awarded the

defense of the Constitution; that's why we have a naturalization process. As for the encroachment of

personal liberties by the government on U.S. citizens, that is a different issue. But the "torture" of

non-U.S. citizens that are also terrorists deserve to be used for information, then drawn and quartered.

It's bleeding hearts like you that fuck up America.

- Kool-Aid (LCA tsxx37)

Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.

We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture?

Quoted: Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.   We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture?

We profess both ultimate and conditional ideals. Life, liberty and the right to property is our professed

ideals, however when you encroach upon those inalienable rights, as terrorists do, you relinquish

idealistic clemency. - Kool-Aid (LCA tsxx37)

Just because someone wants to believe that no one will be tortured doesn't mean that they will actually stop. If nobody finds out about it (or lives to tell) then who cares.

Quoted: Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.   We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture?

Very pie-in-the-sky of you.

Frankly, when you know the guy knows something vital to the security of our nation, I'm not averse to knowing our people aren't afraid to bust a few fingers to get the info.

Quoted: Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it! Fuck you, cocksucker. Terrorists, i.e. guerrillas not affiliated to any nation having signed the Geneva Accords, deserve no quarter; they do not play by the rules and are therefore not allowed the luxuries of "civilized" combat. Moreover, most terrorists are not U.S. citizens and should not be awarded the defense of the Constitution; that's why we have a naturalization process. As for the encroachment of personal liberties by the government on U.S. citizens, that is a different issue. But the "torture" of non-U.S. citizens that are also terrorists deserve to be used for information, then drawn and quartered. It's bleeding hearts like you that fuck up America. - Kool-Aid (LCA tsxx37)

Many good threads get locked because some people don't know how to debate without unnecessary shit like this  

Quoted: Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it! Fuck you, cocksucker. Terrorists, i.e. guerrillas not affiliated to any nation having signed the Geneva Accords, deserve no quarter; they do not play by the rules and are therefore not allowed the luxuries of "civilized" combat. Moreover, most terrorists are not U.S. citizens and should not be awarded the defense of the Constitution; that's why we have a naturalization process. As for the encroachment of personal liberties by the government on U.S. citizens, that is a different issue. But the "torture" of non-U.S. citizens that are also terrorists deserve to be used for information, then drawn and quartered. It's bleeding hearts like you that fuck up America. - Kool-Aid (LCA tsxx37)

For God and country huh?

I am real sure God appreciates your mastery of the english language. Or maybe I should say your god is proud of you and your tantrum.

torture works... but it is a dark science at best.

Torture too little, nothing will happen, torture too much and the subject will admit to anything you want, ala Spanish Inquisition. You can only get so much actionable intelligence from "torture". Also, will holding suspects for years at a time without charges do anything? not really...

Quoted: We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture?

Are you so naive as to believe that making islamofascists put ladies underwear on their heads is torture?  How about making them get in a pyramid formation, like chearleaders do?  Or have a dog bark at them, not bite them, just bark?  Or stand there naked and have some ugly American female soldier laugh at them?

No, torture is kidnapping innocent American workers and cutting their heads off on video.  Let me think for a moment...who did that?  Oh yeah, it was THEM.

Have we stooped to their level?

No, we have not.

But  if the intelligence folks think that torturing a high level piece of crap is what is needed to save Americans, sign me up in the do it column.

I'm not going to comment on the "spying" issue since I'm just starting to hear about it.

The "torture" issue is pure, total 100% grade-A polical HORSESHIT!  There are already laws on the books (up to and including the DEATH PENALTY) for TRUE torture of a prisoner.

What every one is calling a "ban on torture" boils down to "making the prisoner feel bad".  It's a direct response to Abu Ghraib [rollseyes]

Ducan Hunter was on the radio a few weeks ago (Michael Reagan show IIRC) and explained the whole thing AND THE FACT THAT HE ASKED MCCAIN TO *STOP* CALLING BILL BEING ABOUT "TORTURE".  Obviously that had no effect since the MSM will report make up whatever the fuck they want to support their agenda.

Great, civilized warfare. Make it nice enough and who could say no?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.   We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture? Very pie-in-the-sky of you. Frankly, when you know the guy knows something vital to the security of our nation, I'm not averse to knowing our people aren't afraid to bust a few fingers to get the info.

There's a difference between strategic advantages and operational ones.  Torture yields the latter much more than the former.  But the very act of the US condoning and engaging in torture costs us strategically every day.  War is fought on many levels and we have to excell at each.  The cost of torture strategically makes it difficult to justify operationally.

Quoted: I just hope if anybody gets killed because of BS like the above it ain't me but the people that brought it on us all.

Max_Mike.....unfortunantly it isn't people like that who are going to be killed because of this crap it will be people like you and I and others who choose to serve their country.


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill

Quoted: What every one is calling a "ban on torture" boils down to "making the prisoner feel bad".  It's a direct response to Abu Ghraib [rollseyes]

yeah, it is not like children were raped in Abu Ghraib,  prisoners were being murdered by guards, or prisoners were being humiliated... oh wait, they were, my bad

NOTE: Most of the people in Abu Ghraib at the time the tortures took place were not insurgents, but common criminals, in prison for things like petty theft and assault.

EDIT: I am not saying those who raped and murdered people were US troops, they might have been, but  we won't find out since those pictures are being held until the Administration quits appealing the multiple decisions against it holding them. More than likely they were scumbag Iraqi forces.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.   We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture? Very pie-in-the-sky of you. Frankly, when you know the guy knows something vital to the security of our nation, I'm not averse to knowing our people aren't afraid to bust a few fingers to get the info. There's a difference between strategic advantages and operational ones.  Torture yields the latter much more than the former.  But the very act of the US condoning and engaging in torture costs us strategically every day.  War is fought on many levels and we have to excell at each.  The cost of torture strategically makes it difficult to justify operationally.

Did you ever wonder if the reason we don't publicly decry torture is because we want captured terrorists to BELIEVE that they are going to be tortured.  How does it hamper our gathering of intelligence from captured terrorists if Al Jazeera is broadcasting that our government just passed a law making torture illegal?  

Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it!

I think some people are going to have "buyers remorse" after the next mass-casualty event.  We're not fighting like we did in past wars, we are fighting an enemy who specifically targets the softest of civilian targets but expect his own civilian population to be left alone back in Arabia.  

Our Founding Fathers had experience fighting an enemy who killed women and children and delighted in torturing people to death, and our Founding Fathers led campaigns of extermination against those Indians.  The Founding Fathers didn't issue warrants to search villages, and they did resort to torture when they caught a live Indian and needed information.  

I knew someone who was killed on a plane on 9-11 along with her husband and two little girls.  I doubt as she was watching Muslim subhumans murder her children she was saying to herself, "they're torturing my family to death but at least we have lots of civil liberties."  If you are a parent you know exactly what she was thinking.  

One day when the terrorists detonate a nuclear bomb you may be unlucky enough to be close enough to the bomb to receive radiation burns and poisoning but not enough to kill you outright.  As you slowly die over the course of days in unimaginable pain (because little or no medical help will be available the first few days) at least you can say to yourself "American principles are still alive!".  

GunLvr

Quoted: Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it! I think some people are going to have "buyers remorse" after the next mass-casualty event.  We're not fighting like we did in past wars, we are fighting an enemy who specifically targets the softest of civilian targets but expect his own civilian population to be left alone back in Arabia.   Our Founding Fathers had experience fighting an enemy who killed women and children and delighted in torturing people to death, and our Founding Fathers led campaigns of extermination against those Indians.  The Founding Fathers didn't issue warrants to search villages, and they did resort to torture when they caught a live Indian and needed information.   I knew someone who was killed on a plane on 9-11 along with her husband and two little girls.  I doubt as she was watching Muslim subhumans murder her children she was saying to herself, "they're torturing my family to death but at least we have lots of civil liberties."  If you are a parent you know exactly what she was thinking.   One day when the terrorists detonate a nuclear bomb you may be unlucky enough to be close enough to the bomb to receive radiation burns and poisoning but not enough to kill you outright.  As you slowly die over the course of days in unimaginable pain (because little or no medical help will be available the first few days) at least you can say to yourself "American principles are still alive!".   GunLvr

Yea it is getting pretty clear we are too stupid to get it the first time, we are going to have to get hit hard again maybe twice before some people realize this is not a game but a fight for the survival of Western civilization.

AND WE ARE NOT TORTURING ANY FUCKING BODY TO BEGIN WITH.

Quoted: Quoted: There are moments I'm so damn grateful to see that American principles are still alive.  Stooping to the level of those we aim to defeat in the name of freedom sullies the efforts of those who fight so hard for it! Fuck you, cocksucker. Terrorists, i.e. guerrillas not affiliated to any nation having signed the Geneva Accords, deserve no quarter; they do not play by the rules and are therefore not allowed the luxuries of "civilized" combat. Moreover, most terrorists are not U.S. citizens and should not be awarded the defense of the Constitution; that's why we have a naturalization process. As for the encroachment of personal liberties by the government on U.S. citizens, that is a different issue. But the "torture" of non-U.S. citizens that are also terrorists deserve to be used for information, then drawn and quartered. It's bleeding hearts like you that fuck up America. - Kool-Aid (LCA tsxx37)

Prefacing your argument with "Fuck you cocksucker" doesn't give you credibility.  

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I don't think any sane American wants our government to commit torture.  We just don't want things like "no cable tv" or "no ice cream on sunday" to be considered torture under a torture ban.

I seriously doubt any hardcore torture techniques like pulling fingernails out and shocking testicles are being practiced by our military.

Quoted: Yea it is getting pretty clear we are too stupid to get it the first time, we are going to have to get hit hard again maybe twice before some people realize this is not a game but a fight for the survival of Western civilization. AND WE ARE NOT TORTURING ANY FUCKING BODY TO BEGIN WITH.

Yep, the liberal's idea of torture if our female interragators showing the "detainees" a little cleavage.

Maybe you are too young to recall how domestic spying was misused by the government against its citizens in previous decades?
And torture should never be in our "toolbox".

Quoted: Quoted: War is hell.  Why do some want an idealized, fair fight? I want to win.   We will win.  It will be easier to sustain support for the WOT if we actually embody the ideals we profess, at home, with our allies and even with those who might today be our enemies.  Is it really such a loss to our capabilities, which remain overwhelmingly significant, to remove tools of spurious success like torture?

Ask the French how torture worked out for them in Algiers.