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Posted: 11/4/2009 3:27:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 3:33:30 PM EST by wheel]
Anybody catch the story on Nightline last night about the rash of Toyota's that are accelerating by themselves? Toyota's been blaming it on improper floor mats, but many who've experienced it (and lived) have proof that floor mats were not involved. All this started happening around 2003 when Toyota switched to a fly-by-wire electronic accelerator system.

I've got an older vehicle and never have been comfortable with the concept of electronic control of the gas or steering in consumer vehicles like this. It's one thing to employ them in military aircraft or commerical airliners etc. that employ multiple redundant systems and checks. But cheap consumer cars with little or no redundancy is just scary.

The Feds say the investigation is very much still open, regardless of what Toyota claims.

.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:53:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 3:54:31 PM EST by 94TBlazer]
Missed the story but am familiar with Toyota's issue(s) and electonic throttle. My '08 is electronic and I have no issues with performance or concerns over safety. I haven't heard of carnage in the street over vehicles going full retard....

Deer, drivers texting/talking/jerking off, and the Mario Andretti wannabees concern me more....
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:56:51 PM EST
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:59:47 PM EST
There was a big thread on here last summer about an off-duty LEO who was killed in such an accident, which was very mysterious.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:00:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Remember the Audi 5000 and the Jeep Cherokee of the 1980's? This Toyota deal sounds like more of the same.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:02:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 4:03:43 PM EST by E.r.i.k]
I no shit had this happen yesterday morning. I reached down while controlling the car and applying brake pressure. The mat had caught the pedal and was accelerating the car. It was a freaky feeling but once I yanked the mat out, the car stopped accelerating.


ETA: car was a toyota tacoma.

<––––-Strike Hold
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:04:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:07:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 4:08:20 PM EST by wheel]
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Many of these incidents start at highway speeds. By the time the driver realizes what's happening the engine is well into its power band. Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail. One guy I heard about in a separate report in a Lexus with a push-button on/off switch claimed he pushed the button but the engine computer ignored the request. I don't recall hearing if anyone had enough sense to shift into neutral.

.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:07:36 PM EST
Impossible,.. Toyota would never let something like this happen. After all they are non union.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:08:18 PM EST
Its hard to put it in neutral.

Or turn the engine it off.



I have a 07 Camry. I never have had this problem also, there is clips to hold the floor mats in place....
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:08:46 PM EST


Don't most cars come with floor mat hooks to keep them in place? Even my cheapo Scion Xb has them. Otherwise the mats creep around.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:10:17 PM EST
Happened to me on an 87 Buick. Tapped the brakes and the cruise was kicked off. Took it to the dealer, they couldn't make it happen when they drove it but replaced the cruise anyway.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:13:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:14:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By five2one:


Don't most cars come with floor mat hooks to keep them in place? Even my cheapo Scion Xb has them. Otherwise the mats creep around.


Maybe nowadays; but my truck from the '90s ain't got no hooks. Never had an issue with unwanted acceleration...would welcome it, actually....fucking thing can't get out of it's own way.....
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:16:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By wheel:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Many of these incidents start at highway speeds. By the time the driver realizes what's happening the engine is well into its power band. Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail. One guy I heard about in a separate report in a Lexus with a push-button on/off switch claimed he pushed the button but the engine computer ignored the request. I don't recall hearing if anyone had enough sense to shift into neutral.

.



Nope. Not going to happen. There is a reason they CANNOT duplicate it no matter what they do.

Every tine I read of some 90 year old person that shouldn't be driving who runs thru a building wall and keeps claiming that she/he was holding the brake petal to the floor and it wouldn't stop, I laugh because the real truth is that people refuse to admit that they were the loose nut in the cog.

I can understand a floor mat causing some issues, I can see a soda bottle rolling under the brake pedal and not allowing it to work correctly. I do NOT accept that the typical street vehicle has enough power to come close to overriding the modern brake systems we have nowadays.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:17:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Stories like this are the only way Government Motors can compete . . .


Yep, and the only way they can market is "Hey, we're the vehicle that calls 911 for you, not goes full retard"
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:18:00 PM EST
I worked on driver controls for a while and I was never comfortable with using Hall Effect Sensors in safety related components. They just aren't as predictable as mechanical actuators.

They might work in an aerospace application where the $$$ are available for proper shielding and RF/EM interference supression, but in automotive, not so much.

Plus, I had a Nissan with a fly-by-wire throttle and there were times, usually when modulating the throttle back and forth in highway merging, when it would have spooky surges. Almost like the system was pausing to process rapid changes in inputs.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:19:15 PM EST
DUDE!!!!!!!! This happened in my 2008 Crown Vic. The guy at motorpool called BS on me and basically insulted me every which way he could.


So I'm driving down the road the gas pedal pulls away from my foot (like when you have cruise control and hit the "resume" button). I freak the fuck out and hit the break but it's starting to rev so I throw it in Neutral and I'm coasting down the road with the engine in high rev! I coast into a parking lot and stop and people are just staring at this cop car with the engine racing just sitting there.

I was about to turn it off when it just stopped.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:19:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Impossible,.. Toyota would never let something like this happen. After all they are non union.


What directly the fuck would that have to do with it?
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:22:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Impossible,.. Toyota would never let something like this happen. After all they are non union.


What directly the fuck would that have to do with it?


Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:25:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 4:32:13 PM EST by wheel]
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Originally Posted By wheel:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Many of these incidents start at highway speeds. By the time the driver realizes what's happening the engine is well into its power band. Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail. One guy I heard about in a separate report in a Lexus with a push-button on/off switch claimed he pushed the button but the engine computer ignored the request. I don't recall hearing if anyone had enough sense to shift into neutral.

.



Nope. Not going to happen. There is a reason they CANNOT duplicate it no matter what they do.

Every tine I read of some 90 year old person that shouldn't be driving who runs thru a building wall and keeps claiming that she/he was holding the brake petal to the floor and it wouldn't stop, I laugh because the real truth is that people refuse to admit that they were the loose nut in the cog.

I can understand a floor mat causing some issues, I can see a soda bottle rolling under the brake pedal and not allowing it to work correctly. I do NOT accept that the typical street vehicle has enough power to come close to overriding the modern brake systems we have nowadays.



Agreed there are lots of old folks who hit the wrong pedal. But these weren't 90 year olds. And there are MANY such Toyota incidents now... literally thousands, way above the noise level that every manufacturer experiences. And it all started in 2003 and continues to rise.

Cheap brakes = massive brake fade

Unless you're driving a performance car with decent pad compound good luck.

.



Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:29:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 4:30:35 PM EST by E.r.i.k]
Originally Posted By five2one:


Don't most cars come with floor mat hooks to keep them in place? Even my cheapo Scion Xb has them. Otherwise the mats creep around.


Just for clarities sake, The pedal wasnt caught under the mat, but in the mat, between a couple of hard ridges. I was acceleraing to about 45 and the car went to almost 70 before I got it unhooked. To be honest I was on the brake but not holding it to the floor. It happened very fast, and because I had heard it on the news I guessed what happened and went for the mat first. The mat is out of the truck now.
So in a short sentence a floor mat hook was present and wouldnt have helped in my case.

<––––H-minus
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:29:40 PM EST
I've had problems with the fly-by-wire accelerator in my FJ lagging for a second or so before it kicks in, and the truck jumps forward.. it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was the case. If it happens to me, you guys know the real deal, since I don't HAVE floor mats.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:30:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By wheel:

Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail.

.





They had the wrong pedal, 100% guarantee.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:33:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Impossible,.. Toyota would never let something like this happen. After all they are non union.


What directly the fuck would that have to do with it?

He is completely incapable of any rational thought, hates Toyota, and derives a large part of his identity from the truck he purchased (look at his avatar).
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:34:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By wheel:

Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail.

.





They had the wrong pedal, 100% guarantee.



And what about me? explain that.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:34:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 3:59:31 PM EST by wheel]
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By wheel:

Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail.

.





They had the wrong pedal, 100% guarantee.


To quote Kiddo:

"In most cases you'd be 100% right. But in this case you'd be 100% wrong"

There is always a relatively low number of such cases as you describe, with all vehicles. But these are all Toyota's and they all started in 2003, suspiciously when Toyota first introduced fly-by-wire. The number of incidents since then is WAY above the level of all other vehicles. Can't be explained by the "wrong pedal syndrome."





Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:35:33 PM EST
I have done this wth Ford vans and trucks, stepped on the brake and hit the gas as well and it will surprise the bejeezus out of you when that truck takes off like that when you are expecting to slow or stop ––-first instinct is to press harder ––which makes it worse. Just the placement in ford vehicles does it to me.... dodge, jeep, chevy ––never had it happen. We did have one ford van that the cruise control would come on without being activated and attempt to run up to whatever speed it was trying to get to ––stepping on the brake would kick it out though. Eventually the cruise control fuse was pulled and the problem stopped. It happened to three or four guys so it was not a driver issue.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:49:23 PM EST
Guess I should have bought a Toyota. If Nightline says they're dangerous, you know you're safe.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:52:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By ampn:

Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Remember the Audi 5000 and the Jeep Cherokee of the 1980's? This Toyota deal sounds like more of the same.


You forgot the porsche 911 turbos from the 80. A few racers died on the track due to it

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:58:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 5:00:46 PM EST by huaco]
Throttles sticking open is not a new problem. I've had it happen once in a '53 Ford and twice in a '63 VW Beetle. In all cases it took me about three or four seconds to realize what was going on and get the ignition switched off before I got in trouble. Fortunately in all cases I was just accelerating straight ahead so had time to focus on the situation without the discraction of manuevering. Both problems were mechanical throttle linkage failures which I diagnosed and repaired myself. Those were different cars and different times from the world we drive in today.

Abandoning fly by wire controls is not a sure cure that will completely put an end to such problems. I do make it a point to check the floor matts after taking my Tacoma to a carwash because I have had those people put the matts back in and not put them back on the hooks and it is not hard to see how the matt could cause such a problem if it gets in the wrong position.

Since we Arfcommers are big on preparation and drills maybe we should push back from our computers and think about a stuck throttle drill for the vehicles we and our loved ones drive and make sure everyone is prepared for such possibilities. I carry a CCW but have never needed one even when didn't. I have had to deal with undesired acceleration three times in 48 years of driving.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:07:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Yep, just like Audis when 60 minutes did the hit piece on them back circa 1979, Damn near ended Audi in the US
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:13:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Originally Posted By wheel:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Many of these incidents start at highway speeds. By the time the driver realizes what's happening the engine is well into its power band. Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail. One guy I heard about in a separate report in a Lexus with a push-button on/off switch claimed he pushed the button but the engine computer ignored the request. I don't recall hearing if anyone had enough sense to shift into neutral.

.



Nope. Not going to happen. There is a reason they CANNOT duplicate it no matter what they do.

Every tine I read of some 90 year old person that shouldn't be driving who runs thru a building wall and keeps claiming that she/he was holding the brake petal to the floor and it wouldn't stop, I laugh because the real truth is that people refuse to admit that they were the loose nut in the cog.

I can understand a floor mat causing some issues, I can see a soda bottle rolling under the brake pedal and not allowing it to work correctly. I do NOT accept that the typical street vehicle has enough power to come close to overriding the modern brake systems we have nowadays.



Well maybe you need to study what is called BRAKE FADE then Once brakes get hot they lose their breaking ability. It is the same reason that you see semi-trucks use run-a-way truck ramps. Use the brake to much they get hot and quit working the hotter they get the worst they get.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:16:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 5:17:21 PM EST by pv74]
A throttle cable weighs what? a lb or two???

How much weight is actually saved by having a throttle servo??/
It's simply overcomplicating things.

I also want the ability to shut the engine OFF without the computer telling me if it is OK or not....I want the FINAL word not some fucking computer because I have been driving for twenty fucking years and know better than ANY fucking computer when my car is about to go out of control.

I was driving a hopped up '79 Camaro and had the throttle stick...turned the ignition off and hit the brakes HARD...stearing off the road.

I had the brakes fail COMPLETLY in a '79 cougar...Downshifted the tranny and engaged the parking brake (there is a reason why it is called the "emergency brake") managed to stop the car and avoid an accident.

Nothing like having total MECHANICAL control over your vehicle. When all electrical and power systems FAIL....I must have mechanical control to get the fucking thing off the road safely.

I do computer networks for a living and I work with some of the latest, greatest, failsafe high availibility stuff on the market that is supposedly "failsafe"....and I have seen it fail.
No fucking way would I ever trust a computer in a cheap car fuuuuck no.



Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:26:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Stories like this are the only way Government Motors can compete . . .


That's what I was thinking.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:44:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By pv74:
A throttle cable weighs what? a lb or two???

How much weight is actually saved by having a throttle servo??/
It's simply overcomplicating things.


Throttle by wire is not about weight savings. It allows better control by the PCM for emissions and fuel savings reasons, more accurate cruise control, etc. It is not difficult to shift into neutral or turn the engine off, so I don't have a problem with it, unless it has lag or other glitches.

I think these problems are caused by the floor mat trapping the accelerator AND wedging under the brake pedal.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:53:28 PM EST
I have such a system in my 2005 chevy colorado. No problems. There are 2 separate sensors and 2 sets of wires carrying the signal to the computer. If the sensors send contradicting reports then the computer kicks into limp mode. Thats not to say the computer doesn't have bugs but I don't see why I couldn't turn off the engine or hit it into neutral.


-Foxxz
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:57:46 PM EST
When I was a teenage punk, I was spinning donuts in a gravel parking lot in my Olds 442 and spotted
a cop driving by in the corner of my eye.

I quickly stopped the car and got out and knelt down on the ground "inspecting" my floor mats as
the cop pulled up.

He didn't believe me about the floor mat "malfunction"


GM
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:58:55 PM EST
I'd just push the clutch in.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:04:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By CarbineDad:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Yep, just like Audis when 60 minutes did the hit piece on them back circa 1979, Damn near ended Audi in the US


Exactly what I was thinking.
Some idiot pushes the accelerator instead of the brake, he is going to blame the truck, not the operator headspace and timing.
Nobody admits they were stupid when there is a juicy lawsuit waiting.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:06:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tolip:
I'd just push the clutch in.



Or for an auto, put it in neutral.

Max
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:33:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By ampn:

Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Remember the Audi 5000 and the Jeep Cherokee of the 1980's? This Toyota deal sounds like more of the same.

Exactly. There's a small problem with after-market floor mats, and a few con artists want to turn it into a money making opportunity for themselves.z
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:00:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 7:02:41 PM EST by sledhead907]
I've had my 08' Tundra for a little over a year. Before that I had an 07' Tacoma. Both had the throttle by wire, and I never experienced a hiccup in either. Both trucks had floor mat clips, as does our Corolla. I believe there are people out there that have a legitimate problem, but I think the issue might be getting skewed by people not willing to admit that it was their fault.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:22:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.

Most street car engines can overcome the brakes very easily if you're already moving 60+mph when the accelerator is pushed 100% and you simultaneously hit the brakes.

One the brakes get hot (within seconds during this scenario) they fade to near zero effectiveness.

Hitting the brakes is not the proper way to CUT the power to the wheels though. You have to kill the ignition or put the transmission in neutral. Hell, even putting the transmission into park or reverse will halt the car damn quick if it's in runaway mode ala Toyoduh style!
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:35:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:35:44 PM EST by www-glock19-com]

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Stories like this are the only way Government Motors can compete . . .
anyone can take a peek at my posts over the years and see that

I am not a jap kool aid drinker

and am not a tin foiler either

but this thought ran through my mind when I heard this also

and remember kids AUDI stands for Accelerates Under Demoniac Influence
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:46:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:50:02 PM EST by anekrel]
I had a floor mat incident in my '98 Ford Escort in heavy traffic, in the center lane going through Seattle on I5. The car kept accelerating and I couldn't get the floormat unstuck. The first thing I did is turn the ignition off, turn the hazards on and start moving the car to the shoulder. It's amazing, btw, how people will part in heavy traffic for a troubled car.

Getting it to go from 60mph to 0 was easy after the engine was off.


Originally Posted By JeepAR15:

Hell, even putting the transmission into park or reverse will halt the car damn quick if it's in runaway mode ala Toyoduh style!


One word of caution on this, especially for those who drive automatics. I had an experience in my car, transitioning from drive to reverse while putting too much pressure on the accelerator and it snapped my transaxle. I know it's better than dying on the freeway, but I would personally recommend shifting into neutral, or turning the ignition off before doing this
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:57:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By wheel:
Originally Posted By fxntime:
How many street car engines can overcome the brakes when applied?

Toyota isn't an answer.

Stupid people is.


Many of these incidents start at highway speeds. By the time the driver realizes what's happening the engine is well into its power band. Interviews of the victims that surived all stated they stood on the brakes to no avail. One guy I heard about in a separate report in a Lexus with a push-button on/off switch claimed he pushed the button but the engine computer ignored the request. I don't recall hearing if anyone had enough sense to shift into neutral.

.


Yes, brakes are more powerful than the engine, ALWAYS. But the total energy capacity of some brakes can be exceeded because the kinetic energy (1/2 mass velocity^2) PLUS the energy of the engine (torque * revolutions) can exceed the limits of the brakes, ESPECIALLY when the vehicle is already at high speed.

The engine start buttons WILL kill the engine if you press and hold.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 3:19:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By jeremy223:

Originally Posted By pv74:
A throttle cable weighs what? a lb or two???

How much weight is actually saved by having a throttle servo??/
It's simply overcomplicating things.


Throttle by wire is not about weight savings. It allows better control by the PCM for emissions and fuel savings reasons, more accurate cruise control, etc. It is not difficult to shift into neutral or turn the engine off, so I don't have a problem with it, unless it has lag or other glitches.

I think these problems are caused by the floor mat trapping the accelerator AND wedging under the brake pedal.


Throttle by wire and Shift by wire are also cleaner installations. First, there's less labor. Second, most of the OEMs have a big push to eliminate as many holes in the Firewall and Floorpan as possible for NVH. The vision is to have one master connection coming through the Firewall and have the entire Interior Harness connect to it.

It's one of the reasons Manual Transmissions are dying out - they're seen as 'messy' installations, with the routing of the Shift and Clutch Linkages.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 3:23:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By wheel:
Anybody catch the story on Nightline last night about the rash of Toyota's that are accelerating by themselves? Toyota's been blaming it on improper floor mats, but many who've experienced it (and lived) have proof that floor mats were not involved. All this started happening around 2003 when Toyota switched to a fly-by-wire electronic accelerator system.

I've got an older vehicle and never have been comfortable with the concept of electronic control of the gas or steering in consumer vehicles like this. It's one thing to employ them in military aircraft or commerical airliners etc. that employ multiple redundant systems and checks. But cheap consumer cars with little or no redundancy is just scary.

The Feds say the investigation is very much still open, regardless of what Toyota claims.

.

Every FORD made after 2005 or so has been equipped with drive by wire / fly by wire electronic throttles. Some Police cars have accelerated by themselves. More cars have had issues with the sensors not being very responsive: delay/lag, or dead-space (not doing anything until you press down about 1/8").

It overall just sucks. Give me a cable throttle.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 3:33:16 AM EST
My Corolla at higher speeds will seem to "cruise" at said speeds (when I take foot off the gas pedal) for a little while before decelerating. I've gotten used to it, maybe it's a way to help save gas mileage by gradually reducing speeds instead of instant drops. I've gotten used to it.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 3:40:49 AM EST
Now they're gonna ban Toyota's because they are dangerous...
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