Both have advantages and disadvantages
Goggles allow better vision over a wider area
Scope would allow faster aquisition and removal of a target.
Ideally 1 of each would be best for a 2 person team. Spotter & Sniper

But if you could only have one,
Which would you choose?

Del

Brother Del.

Riflescope Riflescope Riflescope.

I have 2- i 2nd Gen passive/active I bought from AR15.com'er Cheeks, and 1 old 1st gen unit.

The 2nd Gen is amazing. Unreal. The 1st gen is still wicked as hell. Not as good as the 2nd gen, so it has been retired to rimfire duty..

Most places in the world consider NV Riflescope posesion on par with illegal MG posession. As I have said a billion times. I am amazed we can still freely purchase NV Riflescopes with no hassles.
This will change.
Hitting a target in pitch black is a hell of a lot more fearsome than any full auto. I think they are already outlawed in Cali.

Keep in mind though.
They are meant to be used with very limited ambient light. As I have found with my NV scopes- 95% of the time, it is too bright for their usage. In an urban/suburban enviroment, there will be streetlights and ambient light from buildings that will illuminate the targets. In that case, a traditionial scope with an illuminated recticle or a dot-sight is better.
NV Riflescopes are a major specialty tool- but I wouldn't trade mine for all the tea in China.
They are just too damn cool.

FWIW, I have used my 1st Gen twice now. Both times on hogs in the middle of the woods at 2:30 AM- dead pitch black. We were operating with flashlights if that gives you any idea. The first time we were out  to sight it in, and the hog was visable at about 120 yds. I zapped him. Dead motherfucker.
The 2nd time I was intentionially hunting, and popped a piglet at about 40 yards.

They really are something else. Especially if you get a good one.

McUZI

[bounce]

BTT-
Good topic. I'd like to hear some opinions too.

McUzi (Carrot luver) What do the Gen II goggles and / or scopes cost?

How hard are they to maintain? What if they break?

Can we (civi's) buy thermal imaging goggles or scopes?

Are they any that do double duty? IR and thermal?

2nd Gen is a bitch as far as price.
I got a KILLER deal on mine from Cheeks- I was totally amazed it was still available after I saw 12 posts on the thread when I first looked.

Usually, new retail starts at $900 for 2nd Gen low end riflescopes, and goes up from there (To about $3000 until you get into 3rd gen)
Maintanence is easy. Keep them shut off- don't expose them to light AT ALL (Even when they are off)-
When they break, they break. And they are very fragile.
Thermal is a joke as far as price. Yeah, i'd trade my NV for thermal too- but then again i'd trade my .50 BMG for a 20MM Vulcan cannon- but it ain't gunna happen.

If I could only have one?

Goggles, without a doubt. [b]raf[/b] gave some of the best points for why I would take goggles over a dedicated scope if I could only have one.

SIX:

A set of GenII AN/PVS-7B goggles, as well as a GenII AN/PVS-4 weaponsight, will cost in the neighborhood of $1600. Keep in mind this is a US-made system, and when it comes to NV, you definitely get what you pay for.

They are very easy to maintain. For one thing, unless you know what you're doing, don't go waving a screwdriver or set of pliers at it. The units are nitrogen purged to avoid collecting moisture inside, which can degrade the image intensifier and its power supply. If it breaks (a US-made system), there are several reputable dealers that can repair it for you.

AN/PVS-7B goggle:

[img]www.littoneos.com/products/images/ANPVS-7D.jpg[/img]

AN/PVS-4  weaponsight:

[img]www.littoneos.com/products/images/ANPVS-4.jpg[/img]

As a civilian, you are only limited to your bank account when it comes to night vision or thermal equipment.

And lastly, IR and thermal are the same thing... Thermal imaging operates in the far-region (or long wavelength) of the infrared spectrum... It is easy to confuse night vision equipment with thermal imaging because night vision intensifiers are sensitive to some (near or short wavelength) infrared radiation. Most night vision can't see IR past 950 or so nanometers, thermal imaging operates well into the 1300's.

The baddest of the bad, the AN/PAS-13 TWS (thermal weapon sight), this is the one adopted by the US Army for the Land Warrior program:

[img]www.auroratactical.com/pix/anpvs13-2.jpg[/img]

Anyone with serious night vision questions or interests, feel free to email me.

havoc

See what happens Del?  This is going to end up costing you![:D]

One more thing...

Here is a shot of my PVS-14 GenIII monocular weapon mounted, to an RAS-equipped M4. Note the PAQ-4C IR aiming light on the fore-end. This provides the reference for point of aim / point of impact. The PVS-14 can be used head mounted, as a goggle, weapon mounted as shown, and hand-held.

(Sorry for the poor pic quality, I took this with a cheap-o camera about two minutes ago...)

[img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/038/qI/h9/Je/qJ59955.jpg[/img]

A better shot of the AN/PVS-14:

[img]www.ittnv.com/images/itt/Pvs-14lg.gif[/img]

havoc

Thanks for the info y'all.
Definitely some things to ponder.
I live in a very rural environment.
Fields and forest abound.
Yet I am between(sort of) Towns.

I do understand the "get what you pay for" aspect.
But funds are an issue.
Goggles run more $$ but IMO would be worth it.

I will need to look around.

CIB, thanks for putting me in touch with your Guru.

Guys, I'm not familiar at all with this type of equipment; would you mind answering a couple of questions?

When using the goggles, is there any problem with eye relief/standard sights?  Too close; can't see the sights?  That sort of thing.

When using the riflescope, does it have a "glow" that can be seen from, say, an off angle by the opposition?
I've often thought that tritium sights on a pistol or even an AR might be seen in the dark by the other guy, thus making you a better target for him.

Thanks for the "illumination"...

How well do these work with someone who wears glasses.

With my Survey equipment, you lose alot of F.O.V. if you don't have your eye right up to the lense.

Del

Mr. Carrots would be right in saying that some in the gov't would like to see these devices taken out of civilian hands.  I believe some democrats refer to NVD's as "subversive devices", and hence everyone should own one!

It depends on the type of goggles you are using. Single tube units (the "cyclops" style, like the PVS-7 above) will not allow you to easily use iron sights, with the exception of maybe tritium dot sights on a handgun... And trust me, doing that takes practice. Dual tube units, like the PVS-5, ANVIS, and PVS-15, will allow you to get some semblence of cheek weld to aim the rifle, but will require you to focus the aiming side to clearly see / use the iron sights (or a dot sight, which I would suggest in this application).

This is a good argument for a weapon mounted laser sight. Visible and IR lasers will work, however the visible can be seen by anyone, and the IR can only be seen by someone else with NV. Also, visible lasers can damage the image intensifier, if used in closer confines / shorter ranges.



Night vision weaponsights are usually outfitted with a special, shuttered eyeguard, that has little flaps to keep the light from the image from escaping. The light can be pretty bright by itself, and when viewed by another NV device is a great big bullseye. When you press your eye against the guard, the flaps open and you can view the intensified image.

Tritium sights will glow well under NV, but only when viewed from the operating end (from behind) does this really become an issue outdoors. A little 100mph tape over the sites until use can take care of that, though.

havoc

Del:

The ocular (eyepiece[s]) of the unit will have diopter adjustments, allowing you to focus the NV device for use without having to wear corrective lenses.

havoc

Thank you, havoc.

either way you will be the most high tech peeping tom in the neighborhood. I vote for the 3rd gen goggles, those are sweet.

HAVOC- Clear something up for me.
I was under the impression that Thermal detected ambient heat- Thus exposed targets behind concealment-
Whereas NV simply magnifys light- with IR as an option to "brighten" the target" when in passive mode-

Am I off here?

my pockets aren't deep enough for night vision but if i can see your outline in the dark my Aimpointed AR will put a hole in you..........Dick

Carrots, I'm not sure of the subtle nuances between NV and Thermal sights ability to "see" different wavelengths, but if you stand a little off to one side of someone firing a rifle alot of times you can [i]see[/i] the bullet going down range kinda like a tracer.  Except what you are looking at is the heat signature.  By the way thermal units usually start out at around $12k.

Best setup in theory: thermal/ultrawideband radar imaging/visible spectrum 3-way instantly selectable by the operator, both head mounted monocular and weapon.  Goggles block off both eyes and it's nice to have an eye free.  Or, since that's a lot of expensive hardware, a gen 3 monocular or two and an aimpoint, with one headmount for the monocular and another on the weapon in tandem with the aimpoint.  Some situations will be better for visible light, some for IR/thermal or UWB modes.  Edited to add that a selectable visibible/IR laser would also be nice.

This is probably an appropriate time to complain that night hunting is not allowed in my area.   [:(]

What a great thread.  I've been tossing the idea around for a while now too.  The stuff is just SO DAMN EXPENSIVE!  I came about 20 seconds from buying a mis-priced monocular yesterday.  I held off because I really want some to use in conjunction with a weapon.  I'd sure appreciate additional discussion on the goggles vs. scope issue.  Someone mentioned the head mounted monoculars are unusable with anything but handguns.  I can understand the geometry involved, but why are there big buck gen3 units then?  I'd be interested in using them in conjunction with an Aimpiont type sight.

Thanks for all the good info.

Jim

Any infrared scope that attaches to a firearm AND has an on-board illuminator is considered a "sniperscope" under OCR law, and is illegal.

Even passive IR scopes are illegal for use in hunting - But so is night-hunting in most cases.

No, And sorry if I was vague... Passive NV does intensify available light, but it is somewhat sensitive to certain (shorter or near-region) wavelengths of IR light. Ever look thru Gen3 equipment at night after a really hot day? Some foliage will have a really cool but faint "glow" (plants have a unique IR signature).

There are some NV devices with special intensifiers that extend farther into the near IR region (for very special applications like target designation lasers). These are still nowhere close to the wavelength needed to view a "heat signature" as implied with thermal imaging.

Thermal imaging equipment can see well into the far-region (longer wavelength) IR part of the spectrum, where heat is present as radiation, but not "hot" enough to produce visible light.

To make another comparison: ever see a campfire that looks like it is out at night, then when you hit the NV it glows like a sumbitch? It's hot, and still hot enough to give off the IR radiation that the NV can see. Leave it alone and come back in a day or two, NV may not see anything, Thermal will still pick it up. It's still hot, just giving off residual radiation in a longer wavelength that NV is not able to see.

Damn, I hope some of this makes sense. Let me know if I need to try again!

havoc

Very good info,
Thanks

I was under the impresion that say a targer was behind a bush... The Thermal unit could pick up the radiant heat, though he was concealed?

I'll chime in on some of what I know about NVG. Pre Y2K I picked up some Gen I AMT NVG's and was very disappointed. Was better off using the naked eye in some cases. I know you all have heard you get what you pay for and it's 100% true. What I'm really posting is to tell you what I learning about driving with NVG's. For it to work you have to be able to switch off any supplemental IR light because it bounces back off the inside of the windshield causing a big glare. So the whatever goggle you use it must be a good at ambient light gathering (Gen 2) or it will not work. Unless you mounted IR sources on the front of the vehicle. Hella has some driving lights that match the size of East German IR 6 or 8" filters if you could mount them to the lights in some way.

Thanks Mark,
That's a great perspective

Keep it coming folks

Pretty heady stuff in this thread.  
Learning a lot, though.

I'm imagining that a sniper's hide really isn't if the opposition has the right equipment...

...and I'm wondering what is an effective sheild to maintain "invisibility" from thermal detection.  What does one use to appear at the same "temperature" as the surroundings?

I can see (no pun intended) someone attempting to be unseen, only they are quite visible with the thermal detection.  Even their footprints might be visible after they leave an area.  Like the ones on the floors of stores...

Is this anywhere near correct?
Gives new meaning to "you can run, but, you can't hide".