It was on cable the other night, and I was half watching until that last scene at the end.  Damn, that's one outstanding performance, and a point of view I have to agree with.  The fact that if it weren't for people like our servicemen, we wouldn't have the luxury of just talking about what is and is not "right".

I know it's a Hollywood movie, and by the time the credits roll, it has to be in a nice neat bow.  But I would have wanted more grey area in the ending, or a different one altogether.

Thoughts, anyone?

I agree whole-heartedly with Col. Jessep's views.

His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person like that.

it always bugged me that the young confused marine got in trouble for following orders when it seemed to me that he couldn't tell the difference between good/bad orders....I understand the necessities of "justice" in the setting..... I just don't like it.

Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person.

They never meant to kill him.  He could have just as easily wound up dead on their next run from some more heat exhaustion.

Quoted: Thoughts, anyone?

I always wondered whether Marines, in general, hated Tom Cruise after that movie.

Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person like that.

+1

Quoted: it always bugged me that the young confused marine got in trouble for following orders when it seemed to me that he couldn't tell the difference between good/bad orders....I understand the necessities of "justice" in the setting..... I just don't like it.

I thought modern military justice made no distinction between crimes committed under orders or those committed by the individual soldier.  "Following orders" isn't an excuse, you have an obligation to disobey illegal orders.

Quoted: Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person. They never meant to kill him.  He could have just as easily wound up dead on their next run from some more heat exhaustion.

I don't think the military is supposed to let you die from heat exhaustion, just like they aren't supposed to beat you to within an inch of your life.

Quoted: Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person like that. +1 Quoted: it always bugged me that the young confused marine got in trouble for following orders when it seemed to me that he couldn't tell the difference between good/bad orders....I understand the necessities of "justice" in the setting..... I just don't like it. I thought modern military justice made no distinction between crimes committed under orders or those committed by the individual soldier.  "Following orders" isn't an excuse, you have an obligation to disobey illegal orders.

granted ....but the character was portrayed as some one who couldn't make the distinction in orders....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person. They never meant to kill him.  He could have just as easily wound up dead on their next run from some more heat exhaustion. I don't think the military is supposed to let you die from heat exhaustion, just like they aren't supposed to beat you to within an inch of your life.

Have you even seen the movie?  They don't beat him one bit.  And I wasn't implying that they would LET him die.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person like that. +1 Quoted: it always bugged me that the young confused marine got in trouble for following orders when it seemed to me that he couldn't tell the difference between good/bad orders....I understand the necessities of "justice" in the setting..... I just don't like it. I thought modern military justice made no distinction between crimes committed under orders or those committed by the individual soldier.  "Following orders" isn't an excuse, you have an obligation to disobey illegal orders. granted ....but the character was portrayed as some one who couldn't make the distinction in orders....

Tough.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: His basic belief system was valid, but his methods were flawed.  There's no excuse to kill an innocent person. They never meant to kill him.  He could have just as easily wound up dead on their next run from some more heat exhaustion. I don't think the military is supposed to let you die from heat exhaustion, just like they aren't supposed to beat you to within an inch of your life. Have you even seen the movie?  They don't beat him one bit.  And I wasn't implying that they would LET him die.

I saw the last 2/3rds of the movie, and I got the impression that a "code red" was basically a hazing, and the soldiers went too far.  What was it if not that?

And as for dying of heat exhaustion, it's up to the soldier, so what I mean is not that they would LET him die, but if he said that he was suffering from it they should allow him to rest and cool down.

I watched the movie the other night as well.  I've seen it many times and love it.  I understand the view points of all the characters.  The problem I've always had was the phrase "code red".  Could they not think of anything gayer?  

Sorry for the hijack, but I always loved this version:

Airline Captain POV....



Captain: "You want answers?"

Chief Pilot: "I think we are entitled”

Captain: "You want answers?!"

Chief Pilot: "I want the truth!"

Captain: "You can't handle the truth!!!"

Captain (continuing): "We live in a world that requires revenue. That revenue must be flown by people with elite skills. Who's going to do it? You, Mr CEO? You Mr. Finance? You, Ms. Human Resources? We have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You scoff at the Line Pilots and you curse our mediocre incentives. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know. And my very existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, drives REVENUE! You don't want to know the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at staff meetings, you want me in that airplane. You NEED me in that airplane!!

We use words like working radar, good weather, on time departures, airworthiness, upgrades, commuting, another round, medium-rare, on-the-rocks, Cohiba. We use these words as the backbone of all Professional Aviation. You use them as a punch line!

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to people who rise and sleep under the very blanket of service I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a flight bag. Either way, I don't give a dang what you think you're entitled to!"

Chief Pilot: "Did you expense the lap dancers?"

Captain: "I did the job I was hired to do."

Chief Pilot: "Did you expense the lap dancers?!"

Captain: "You're goddamn right I did!

He ordered the Code Red.  In his view it was something that needed to be done.  In a way I agreed with what he did.  We all need an ass whippin every once in awhile to get in line, correct?  Though the tragic part of this was the soldier did not get a chance to shape up, he died.    Then again he could have ordered a 20 mile march and a couple of soldiers could have accidently died that way too.  

I also do not think the soldiers that carried out the order deserved to be Dis-Honorably discharged.  They were only following orders.

Bottom line is soldiers do what they need to do to survive and to help others survive.  They are the ones out there, in the cold, the heat, dehydrated, frostbitten, while we sit at home in our AC/heated rooms typing on the Internet.

Quoted: I also do not think the soldiers that carried out the order deserved to be Dis-Honorably discharged.  They were only following orders.

The Einsatzgruppen marching across Europe, massacring jews and poles and russians were only following orders too.  Your CO orders you to haze someone, you disobey.

There's no excuse to kill an innocent person like that.

Apparently a person with a heart condition.
They did not mean to kill him but they were following orders to punish or haze the guy to try to get him to get with the program. The problem was that the guys lowest on the chain of command were left holding the bag when everyone else denied that the 'code red' had been given. Hmmm, well that's not new is it?
Now days the Corps are not allowed to beat the troops but back in the day it was very common. A pal of mine was 19 when he went in the Corps in 1959. He said the DI would beat them until he was satisfied that they could take it and not break down and cry or whatever and then he would leave them alone. But there were quite a few beatings and quite a few fights.
My pal related this story.
He got off the bus (West Coast) and stood on the yellow foot prints. There was a guy on the front row smacking a wad of gum. The DI was screaming at them and told them three times to get rid of their gum. The guy on the front row is smackin his gum like a dumb cow or something. The DI hit this guy so hard he took down the three guys behind him like dominos. My pal said that he had a ephimiphy (sp) and realized that the DI might kill him. He decided to drop the attitude and do whatever it took to get thru boot.  
Back in the day.