Hello:  I am an LEO in a medium sized city.  Our department used to issue 12ga. Remingtons.  We have recently switched over to Colt M4 which are issued to us, however we have the option of purchasing our own patrol rifle.  The guns that they will supply to us are military left overs (I believe) and not in the best shape.  Therefore, most of us want to purchase our own weapons.  I do not have that much knowledge regarding these types of weapons and am turing to the pros here for some advice.  The gun has to be in the 5.56 caliber and of the M4 type.  I have looked at Bushmaster, Colt and Rock River Arms.  A dealer the other day had all three of those that I mentioned in stock and he really liked the Bushmaster.  Any suggestions are much appreciated.  Thanks

You live in CT go with Stag. I have a 2T and absolutely love it.
It is m4 style with a free float tac rail on it. Great weapon...
They are based in New Haven.

1st off, are the M4s that you can get for free "not in the best shape" cosmetically or mechanically?  If it is just a matter of being pretty, go for the free gun.  If there is something mechanically wrong with them, see if the agency will get it fixed or get your own.

My agency allows us to purchase our own patrol rifles.  I chose a Bushmaster for mine.  It does everything I need it to.  I had to send my Bushmaster back to the factory to have an ambi safety installed (agency requirement) and the customer service was outstanding.  I like the Rock Rivers from what I have seen of other's guns, but I don't have any shooting experience with them to comment.  Several officers I know use them and, just like mine, they do everything the officer needs just fine.  A lot of folks here and elsewhere will tell you to go Colt or go home.  One suggestion is to contact each of the makers and ask for their Law Enforcement department.  Often you can get some good deals at the LE price if your agency will give you letterhead.

Quoted: ...The gun has to be in the .223 5.56 caliber...

You need a 5.56 chamber, this way you'll be able to safely shot both 223 and 5.56 ammo


lots of great manufacturers offer great M4style weapons....can't go wrong with Colt, Bushy, Armalite, Stag, LMT, S&W, etc

height=8

Quoted: 1st off, are the M4s that you can get for free "not in the best shape" cosmetically or mechanically?  If it is just a matter of being pretty, go for the free gun.  If there is something mechanically wrong with them, see if the agency will get it fixed or get your own. My agency allows us to purchase our own patrol rifles.  I chose a Bushmaster for mine.  It does everything I need it to.  I had to send my Bushmaster back to the factory to have an ambi safety installed (agency requirement) and the customer service was outstanding.  I like the Rock Rivers from what I have seen of other's guns, but I don't have any shooting experience with them to comment.  Several officers I know use them and, just like mine, they do everything the officer needs just fine.  A lot of folks here and elsewhere will tell you to go Colt or go home.  One suggestion is to contact each of the makers and ask for their Law Enforcement department.  Often you can get some good deals at the LE price if your agency will give you letterhead.

The guns supplied by my agency all work fine just cosmetically beat up.  They are also heavy and bulky with 20" barrels.  We have to secure these weapons in the armory after each shift and cannot leave the department with them.  I would like to purchase my own so that I can take it home and practice on my own.  Also, if I purchase my own I can customize it (optics, light, ect) where I cannot do this with the department gun.  Plus, I have the option of buying a rifle with a shorter barrel (16") which is easier to take in and out of the car.  

Ah, I understand now.  The M4 doesn't have a 20" Barrel.  That is why I was confused.

I would find out what the department will allow you to carry (are there brand restrictions, size restrictions, etc) and then contact each of the major manufacturers/dealers and see what they can offer you at the LE price.

A Colt LE6920 is an M4 type carbine with a 16.1in barrel and is easily the BEST "of of the box" AR on the market IMO.

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Quoted: Ah, I understand now.  The M4 doesn't have a 20" Barrel.  That is why I was confused. I would find out what the department will allow you to carry (are there brand restrictions, size restrictions, etc) and then contact each of the major dealers and see what they can offer you at the LE price.

I looked at a Bushmaster 16" M4 type for $940 which was at the LE price.  I can get the Colt M4 for about $150 more and the Rock River for about the same price as the Colt.  If there would be no significant advantage going to the Bushmaster over the Colt I would prefer to save the $150 and use that money to buy accessories for the gun.  However, if the Colt is considered to be that much better then I would spend the extra $150.  Thanks for advice!

Quoted: Quoted: Ah, I understand now.  The M4 doesn't have a 20" Barrel.  That is why I was confused. I would find out what the department will allow you to carry (are there brand restrictions, size restrictions, etc) and then contact each of the major dealers and see what they can offer you at the LE price. I looked at a Bushmaster 16" M4 type for $940 which was at the LE price.  I can get the Colt M4 for about $150 more and the Rock River for about the same price as the Colt.  If there would be no significant advantage going to the Bushmaster over the Colt I would prefer to save the $150 and use that money to buy accessories for the gun.  However, if the Colt is considered to be that much better then I would spend the extra $150.  Thanks for advice!

I own RRA, Bushmaster, and Colt. Bushmaster and RRA are good weapons. BM's customer service is awesome, but Colt is by far a higher quality weapon of the 3!

Quoted: Quoted: Ah, I understand now.  The M4 doesn't have a 20" Barrel.  That is why I was confused. I would find out what the department will allow you to carry (are there brand restrictions, size restrictions, etc) and then contact each of the major dealers and see what they can offer you at the LE price. I looked at a Bushmaster 16" M4 type for $940 which was at the LE price.  I can get the Colt M4 for about $150 more and the Rock River for about the same price as the Colt.  If there would be no significant advantage going to the Bushmaster over the Colt I would prefer to save the $150 and use that money to buy accessories for the gun.  However, if the Colt is considered to be that much better then I would spend the extra $150.  Thanks for advice!

save those 150$ for mags and accessories.

I'm a Colt fan but the Bushy will serve you well just like the Colt.
the only advantage of the Colt over the Bushy is that it uses a milspec buffer tube and stock, but it's something easy to fix if you'll ever want to upgrade the stock.

Go Armalite and you won't be sorry !!!!!!  

What about LMT?

Quoted: Go Armalite and you won't be sorry !!!!!!

I have an Armalite as a recreational rifle and it is top notch.  I wouldn't be afraid to trust my life to it, the Illinois State Police do.


To be fair,

Texas DPS chose Bushmaster.

DEA chose Rock River.

Quoted: save those 150$ for mags and accessories. I'm a Colt fan but the Bushy will serve you well just like the Colt. the only advantage of the Colt over the Bushy is that it uses a milspec buffer tube and stock...

...that and every barrel high-pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected along with the bolt which is also shot peened. The 1/7 twist barrel is fully parkerized with the correct F marked front sight base installed on flat-top models. M4 models have the M4 feed ramp barrel extension and receiver etc. etc.

I don’t own a Colt.  Instead, I have a complete Bushmaster and a lower receiver. I decided the above mentioned qualities were not important enough for the added cost at the time.  At that time, Bushmasters were considerably cheaper than Colt.  I don’t think that’s the case anymore. Had it been a mere $150 difference, it would have been a tough decision to make. When I was looking for a 20” upper, I selected the Bravo Company’s version for it possessed the aforementioned qualities.

i think the best bang for your buck is an RRA
we sell bushy's for 880 with a removable carry handle

RRA's are 785 with the flat top no handle

I like colts but dont think the price is justified

the above are LEO prices

I also think the RRA trigger blows the bushmasters out of the water, unless you can carry one of the new bushmaster's with the adjustable trigger

You can get a 1/7 Bushmaster with M4 feedramps if that floats your boat.  That other site even has some photos of the Bushy M4 feedramps.

If you live in CT Colt is not an option....  Granted being an LEO you are not subject to our AWB, but as soon as you are not one, you would be in felony possession of an assault weapon.  There might also be issues if you were to shot at a range and didn't have your credentials.  Best best is to get the Bushy and avoid a lot of the hassles that a Colt will cause

Your state has a brand name ban?

more info:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=350089
and
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=350220

ar-jedi

Any of the 3 that you mention I would trust my life on.  I wouldn't suggest going below that. (Though I do own a Armalite that I would trust my life on.)

I don't suggest you building your own for the pure fact of personal liability and dept liability.  Whatever you get, make sure that you can get factory parts, not 3rd party or have access to factory authorized gunsmiths for repairs.  Again, for personal liability.

Get a lot of mags and number them.  Since you will have your own mags, I suggest you mark them so you don't get them mixed up with the dept mags or someone doesn't accuse  you of taking their mags.  Since I shoot with a lot of AR guys and we loan others loaded mags, my mags have green electrical tape around the bottom of the mag.  Instantly looking at the mags tells me which mags are mine.  Numbering the mags will help you remember which mags act "funny"  If they act "funny" replace the spring or replace the mag.

Hope this helps
Hardwarz

Quoted: The gun has to be in the 5.56 caliber and of the M4 type.

LMT lower; LMT or Noveske upper.  

ar-jedi

Get both.

Will the Dept. issue rifles be select fire?

Get an AA 16" GDMR in 6.5Grendel, you won't have to shoot someone twice.

And they will not be out of range.

Ignore the advice of people that don't work with the tools for a living.  You just don't get the same level of experience with what can go wrong on the job until you have used a specific tool on duty.

Get a Colt.  Flat out, I have carried them in Iraq and Astan and I'm issued one in the states.  They are the go to source for quality.  BM, RRA, CMT/Stag, etc will make some good guns...and they will  make some garbage.  The real measure of a company is their quality over millions and millions of guns...something that only Colt or FN does well.  

Anecdotal evidence from one or two people that own a few guns is not evidence.  Millions of M-4s with the .gov is evidence of quality.

Get a Colt LE 6920 and add a rail, light, and Vickers sling.  Maybe an Aimpoint.  

You can get LEO pricing from SAW.  

IMHO a duty weapon should have a properly staked bolt carrier, a chrome lined barrel, and a MPI tested barrel and bolt.  I prefer a 1x7 twist rate but if your Department only issues/allows 55 or 62 grain ammunition then this isn't a big deal, 1x9 (stock Bushmasters, Stag, RRA) will be fine.  

Staking a bolt carrier is a basic job that a lot of companies don't seem to do correctly.  Staking prevents the gas key from working loose and turning your rifle into a single shot rifle.  Chrome-lined barrels last longer, help prevent corrosion, are easier to clean, and help make the rifle a bit more reliable.  Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) is a quality control process that checks the barrel and bolt for structural flaws not visible to the eye.  The 1x7 twist rate allows the use of 75 and 77 grain ammunition.

Colt, LMT, CMMG (with LMT bolt upgrade), Noveske, Sabre, and BCM all MPI every barrel and bolt, use chrome-lined barrels, and properly stake their bolt carriers.  Bushmaster MPI tests each lot/batch they produce, uses chrome-lined barrels, but seem to be hit & miss on staking.  All of the companies have good reputations for Customer Service.

The other companies put out good rifles that shoot.  They just don't offer the features that I think are important in a DUTY weapon because they increase the odds (even if it is only .0001%) that when you really need your weapon to go bang it will.  You'll find that many people think that these features are not necessary and are a waste of money.  I prefer to drink the cool-aid.  I just prefer some other flavors to Pony.

Contact Ranier arms (www.rainierarms.com) or Bravo Company (Great Service), let them know you are a LEO, you may have to fax some credentials, no big deal.  Ranier Arms has good deals on Lewis, Machine, & Tool (LMT) uppers and lowers.  Bravo Company has the same plus Stag (CMT) and their own BCM brand.  Anything you get from Bravo will be put together right.  CMMG offers a LEO discount (call or email before ordering).

If you have to buy a complete rifle from a local vendor then a Colt LE6920 for $150 more than a Bushmaster is a good deal.

Actually i have to disagree with FEDDC in one regard, i think CIVI gun owners usually use there guns alot more than LEO's do.

Im a gunsmith at a LEO dealer that supplies Miami dade broward county and Long beach california. LEO's qual once twice a year and thats usually all the guns get fired if we are being realistic. I have built and seen 1000's of Civi guns cycled thousands of time a month and respect alot of opinions from alot of users.
I have seen some quality control issues from RRA but relatively few and even less from bushmaster.
I would say 95% of all AR's purchased in the West palm beach broward county and dade county law enforcement communities are either Bushmaster and RRA with a sprinking of Colt DPMS and Armalite in there.
I have rarely seen a failure come into the store for repairs.

Unfortunately you're right.  A lot of LEOs only shoot when they have to qualify, which is a shame.  I work for a medium sized department (500+) and maybe 10% go to the range to practice on a regular basis.  The exceptions being SET, Patrol Sharpshooters, and the Shooting Team.  The sad thing is that up until last month (ammo shipment is 6 months late and Academy training comes first) the ammo was free and you could pretty much shoot as much as you wanted to......

Now I have to buy my own and am feeling the pain

ETA:  Ironically civies probably shoot more than most soldiers (with the exception of SOCOM units).  I probably shot no more than 5-600 live rounds a year through my M16A2 when I was in the 82d in the mid-90s.  I shoot around that amount a month now as a LEO, or did when I wasn't paying for it.

Quoted: Actually i have to disagree with FEDDC in one regard, i think CIVI gun owners usually use there guns alot more than LEO's do. Im a gunsmith at a LEO dealer that supplies Miami dade broward county and Long beach california. LEO's qual once twice a year and thats usually all the guns get fired if we are being realistic. I have built and seen 1000's of Civi guns cycled thousands of time a month and respect alot of opinions from alot of users. I have seen some quality control issues from RRA but relatively few and even less from bushmaster. I would say 95% of all AR's purchased in the West palm beach broward county and dade county law enforcement communities are either Bushmaster and RRA with a sprinking of Colt DPMS and Armalite in there. I have rarely seen a failure come into the store for repairs.

The difference is that LEO guns are used more...but that does not always mean that they are being fired.  Being carried constantly is often far more damaging than shooting.  I have seen mil spec Colt M-4s that were deadlined for finish wear...not for being shot out.  

When you start handling and carrying them daily, you learn a lot about quality and how well small things like trigger guards are made.  BM uses plastic trigger guards...not a big deal during shooting but a huge deal when you are banging the rifle around in your vehicle all day every day and it breaks.  

Then there are training guns at the academy/range.  Our training guns are shot to death...literally.  It is not uncommon for them to go through tens of thousands of rounds per gun over the course of a few training cycles.  All guns eventually break including colts but when you run as many guns as DOD, you can see trends and the Colts with the QC that goes into them are the best for that kind of use.

If it is a hobby gun that gets shot at a match on weekends or taken out to go plinking...no big deal.  If it is bouncing around in a LE vehicle and getting used when lives are on the line, it needs to be a Colt.  

Colt
Bushmaster
Armalite
RRA
STAG
LMT
etc, etc.

They are all fine weapons and any will do you fine.  I have a RRA lower with a LMT upper 14.5 w/ phantom.  Add ons are Eotech, YHM freefloat and a digilight with range extender bezel.  The RRA came stock with a NM trigger and hogue grip.

RRA has free shipping to departments through RBPrecision as well as a few other distributors.

Don't get crazy to start with on options.  A good weapon light is a must and now that I have an Eotech I don't think I would be without it.  I was required to have it functional the same as the other rifles without doing anything so no flip down rear but I do have the dominator sight rail.

Joe

ETA:  FedDC has good points but I stop just short of the full colt KoolAid.  You do want a durable gun and lots of them fit the bill.

www.slr15.com/slr15rifles.html

Sully is a SWAT guru in Minnesota. He was a patrol cop for many years and created these rifles as a result of seeing too many guns that were just a CH out of spec and DNF'd as a result.

He uses forged receivers, improved extractors, nothing but absolutely A+ stuff from what I've seen and played with. My next new rifle purchase will be one of his Commanders (carbine gas system with longer sight radius).

FWIW his "Grail" rifle just got (another) excellent writeup, this one in SWAT magazine.

If you only have to pay an additional $150, I'd go for the Colt without hesitation.

Colt's QC that has been mentioned is important when lives can be on the line.

Anytime a Salesman seems to rave over the less expensive item, I get the feeling he's just trying to move it because it's not selling.

IMO the order of choice goes:
#1 Colt and FN (not that FN's available so why worry about them)
#2 Noveske, LMT, SLR 15/Sully's Rifles and Bravo Company
#3 Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite, etc., etc.

LRB makes a decent AR and great M14
just over the sound

Quoted: Quoted: ...The gun has to be in the .223 5.56 caliber... You need a 5.56 chamber, this way you'll be able to safely shot both 223 and 5.56 ammo lots of great manufacturers offer great M4style weapons....can't go wrong with Colt, Bushy, Armalite, Stag, LMT, S&W, etc

What he said.

Why not have them issue you a Department owned weapon. Then purchase your own upper receiver and throw the old upper in your locker for when you are ready to turn it back in?  Then you will have FA, I'm not sure you can purchase a FA weapon yourself.

Liability wise I like having a Dept. owned weapon vs. a personally owned weapon in case I have to neutralize a threat.

Quoted: Actually i have to disagree with FEDDC in one regard, i think CIVI gun owners usually use there guns alot more than LEO's do. Im a gunsmith at a LEO dealer that supplies Miami dade broward county and Long beach california. LEO's qual once twice a year and thats usually all the guns get fired if we are being realistic. I have built and seen 1000's of Civi guns cycled thousands of time a month and respect alot of opinions from alot of users. I have seen some quality control issues from RRA but relatively few and even less from bushmaster. I would say 95% of all AR's purchased in the West palm beach broward county and dade county law enforcement communities are either Bushmaster and RRA with a sprinking of Colt DPMS and Armalite in there. I have rarely seen a failure come into the store for repairs.

You're talking shooting.  Civlians shoot more.  Cops use the gun more, i.e. move it in and out of cars, racks, actually clear buildings with them etc.  I am the armorer at my department for 12 Bushmasters and 10 Colt's/LMT's.  Guess which ones have broken?  If you put on a single-point sling mount, the torque on the castle nut will cause it to rotate loose on a Bushmaster.  I will never buy another Bushamster for department use.  The extra $300 you spend for Colt goes into the better barrel, correct carrier and receiver end-plate staking and the correct extractor springs/inserts.  These may not matter to the guy who shoots 3 gun on the weekend, but they damn sure will matter at 0330 hours on a rainy night when you're doing a felony car stop or looking for armed robbers.

For duty use, I only recommend Colt and LMT.

To follow up about the Assault Weapons ban here in CT:
From the DPS website:
"Who may possess Assault Weapons in Connecticut?

Law enforcement and military personnel may possess Assault Weapons in connection with their official duties, and any person who has a Certificate of Possession issued by the Special Licensing and Firearms Unit may possess the Assault Weapon listed on their certificate."

You should really talk with your department, and get clarification, since both the Colt AR15 and the Sporter are named as assault weapons.  According to this blurb, even as LEO you may only possess "in connection with official duties" which may not include going to the range on your own time. YMMV

If it was me I would go with the department issued weapon for work and get a different weapon to practice with.  I carried a 36 year old M16 in Iraq and it still works just fine.
External cosmetics really are secondary to function in a duty weapon, as others have said.
Hope this helps

Quoted: To follow up about the Assault Weapons ban here in CT: From the DPS website: "Who may possess Assault Weapons in Connecticut? Law enforcement and military personnel may possess Assault Weapons in connection with their official duties, and any person who has a Certificate of Possession issued by the Special Licensing and Firearms Unit may possess the Assault Weapon listed on their certificate." You should really talk with your department, and get clarification, since both the Colt AR15 and the Sporter are named as assault weapons.  According to this blurb, even as LEO you may only possess "in connection with official duties" which may not include going to the range on your own time. YMMV If it was me I would go with the department issued weapon for work and get a different weapon to practice with.  I carried a 36 year old M16 in Iraq and it still works just fine. External cosmetics really are secondary to function in a duty weapon, as others have said. Hope this helps

Colt got around that by renaming their rifles.  They no longer have the "AR15"  I have one and it's a Match Target HBAR.  Or, they have their 6280 model.

I am a retired LEO and fireamrs instructor. My department got 10 military surplus m-16's initially in which we disabled the FA feature. We have since pruchased several more Bushmasters and several officers (myself included) have purchased their own in which we were permitted to set them up just about anyway we wanted to. Since we are also armorers, we take care of everyones rifles on a regular basis in order to minimize any potential problems. Since we do have a maintenance program, problems are fairly rare but we have had to send back one Bushy as it would jam all the time. They fixed it and we haven't had a problem up to the time I retired.
My 20 some year old Eagle Arms m-4 was set up with a surefire 6n light with remote switch and an Eotech holosight. It never failed me through several thousand rounds of various brands of ammo.
If you buy your own, Get any good aforementioned brands, set it up the way you feel comfortable with and practice, practice, practice then clean, clean, clean.

Shop around, you should be able to find much better prices than those.  Any of the big name brands will work.  My dept lets us purchase our own & I have a RRA & really like it.  My buddy carries a Bushmaster & like his.  I've seen all the tops brands shot & they all performed just fine.

Make sure you keep your reciept and deduct it off your taxes
LMT or Colt IMHO

I've owned Colt and DPMS, and my agency issues BM, DPMS, and RRA.  If I was limited to an AR I would have to agree that the Colt's seem to be consistently the best, although the others work fine.

I carry a Robinson Arms XCR and love it.  It is in the same price range as the Colt, and probably cheaper when set up the same.  RA has LE pricing and all you have to do is fax in a copy of your ID and commission card and arrange with an FFL to accept the gun and make the transfer.

I carry a Sabre Defence, XR15A3, M4, flattop tactical. It has the SOCOM stock, Samson Quad rail, and Yankee Hill flip up front/rear sights. The barrel is 14.5 in. w/1:7 twist, chrome lined, M4 feed ramps, staked gas key, the works. I have handled M-16s for years, since enlisting in the service in 1982. I had an original Curits E. LeMay M-16, fully auto, no forward assist, when stationed in England. My last service weapon was the Colt M4, with an M68 CCO optic, loved it. I must say Sabre builds a fine weapon system. Fit, finish, quality, balance, and reliability are superb. You will pay more for it, but what's your life worth? My agency lets us purchase our long guns, so this one's a keeper for life. I "pimped" it out with a Spectre Gear single point sling, Tango Down vertical foregrip, BTI 1" flashlight attachment, with a Surefire G2 Nitrolon light, Magpul rail covers and extended trigger guard. I'm waiting on my 5mW green laser pointer I just ordered from Sportsman's Guide. Still haven't decided on an optical sight, but am leaning towards a Zeiss or the new FERFRANS Fast Acquisition Sight. They come out early in 2008. The Sabre is dead accurate, right out of the box.

Brand is the least important issue with a new patrol rifle.  I have owned Eagle (now Armalite), Rock River, Bushmaster, and DPMS.  All of those rifles were reliable enough for duty use.  I am currently using a Bushmaster for duty.

The most important thing is that the rifle you choose is adequately tested.  Shoot the piss out of it in lots of simulations to ensure that it will function when needed.  I would carry a tested rifle from a no name manufacturer before I would consider carrying an out of the box, untested gun from any of the big names.  Any of them can fail or have reliability issues.  

The second most important thing is how the rifle is equipped.  You want a 16" barrel (or possibly shorter if you dept lets you use SBR's), a railed forend, and a quality weapon light.  If you want optics, get flip up front AND rear sights.  A vertical foregrip is also an option that I like.  

The last thing is, keep it light.  If you are looking at two seemingly identical guns (option wise) and one is a half pound lighter... it will get my nod every time.  

Brand is the least important issue with a new patrol rifle.  I have owned Eagle (now Armalite), Rock River, Bushmaster, and DPMS.  All of those rifles were reliable enough for duty use.  I am currently using a Bushmaster for duty.

The most important thing is that the rifle you choose is adequately tested.  Shoot the piss out of it in lots of simulations to ensure that it will function when needed.  I would carry a tested rifle from a no name manufacturer before I would consider carrying an out of the box, untested gun from any of the big names.  Any of them can fail or have reliability issues.  

The second most important thing is how the rifle is equipped.  You want a 16" barrel (or possibly shorter if you dept lets you use SBR's), a railed forend, and a quality weapon light.  If you want optics, get flip up front AND rear sights.  A vertical foregrip is also an option that I like.  

The last thing is, keep it light.  If you are looking at two seemingly identical guns (option wise) and one is a half pound lighter... it will get my nod every time.