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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:07:40 AM EDT
If this is a repost, my apologies. I checked the top 6 pages and didn't see it.

Looks like 5.56/.223 is gonna shoot up faster.

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-m162dec02,1,6788385,full.story?coll=la-headlines-world

height=8
New arms for a new Iraqi army

Soldiers are trading in the iconic Soviet assault rifle, the AK-47, for a U.S. military symbol, the M-16.

By Doug Smith, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 2, 2007

BESMAYA RANGE, IRAQ -- The company of Iraqi soldiers pressed together for the dance of valor, singing of their bravery, stomping in the desert sand, thrusting their weapons skyward, just as they might have done not so many years ago to honor Saddam Hussein.

But what were those sleek silhouettes they jabbed into the air? Not AK-47s. The iconic Soviet bloc assault rifle that has been synonymous for decades with America's adversaries and the developing world is being phased out of the Iraqi army.

Its replacement? The M-16, a rifle that first saw service in the jungles of Vietnam and has since, over a sometimes difficult evolution, become the dominant symbol of the Western soldier.

Over the next year or two, the 190,000 projected members of the Iraqi army will be issued M-16s or related weapons, to the consternation of some military aficionados and pundits, with some saying the U.S. is tempting fate by offering the world's premier assault rifle to a country with an unstable government and a healthy black market.

Others see a stroke of genius in giving the Iraqis a weapon renowned for its temperamental nature.

"Having an insurgent pick up and use an M-16? Possibly detrimental to their efforts in the long run," one blogger wrote sarcastically.

The controversy reflects the two weapons' remarkably different characteristics and their competing roles in global power struggles over the last five decades.

The AK, bred in the Soviet assembly lines of 1947, is easy to mass-produce and renowned for its indestructibility. A large round and big kick give it a "spray and pray" shooting style that fits the needs of ill-trained armies, rebel groups and warlords.

Though developed only about a decade later, the M-16 was conceived as a precision instrument, and it can be as cranky as a sewing machine. Jamming problems in the early models were resolved partly through refinements but also by strict maintenance regimes.

Already, about 10,000 of the Colt-manufactured assault rifles have been distributed to Iraqi soldiers in Baghdad and other parts of the country. The Iraqi Defense Ministry has ordered about 41,000 of the weapons, which sell for about $800 apiece, and the U.S. Army has authorized the sale of 80,000 others, plus 50,000 of the related M-4.

Now, at this training base in the desert east of Baghdad, the 3rd Brigade of the 11th Iraqi Infantry is becoming the first all-new brigade to be formed with the standard NATO weapon as its firearm.

Each day a new batch of soldiers receives the weapons, factory-wrapped in blue plastic and cardboard. At the same time, each man is scanned for biometric information to help build a database of army personnel and also make each soldier responsible for his rifle.

They spend the next three days on the range, zeroing in their sights and qualifying. About 92% make it the first time, their instructor said. They then graduate to live-fire tactical training, learning how to enter a house, identify a target and shoot to kill.

The rifle swap is part of a gradual Americanization of the Iraqi forces since the 2003 invasion. With their Soviet-made vehicles destroyed, Iraqi soldiers early on were equipped with American Humvees, on which they mounted Eastern guns. In September 2006, Congress approved $3 billion in sales of military hardware to Iraq.

But Iraqi defense officials were especially eager for the U.S. rifle to modernize their forces, Defense Ministry spokesman Mohammed Askari said.

"These weapons possess high quality and the most recent specifications that will help us in upgrading the work of our ministry," Askari said.

After some resistance, U.S. commanders now embrace the swap as a symbol of change for what they call the new Iraqi army.

"The M-16 is a sign of the Iraqi army being a modern army," said Brig. Gen. Robin Swan, who is in charge of the U.S.-led forces' Iraqi training command.

Base commander Col. Abbas Fadhil, who made headlines this fall by collecting donations from his men for California fire victims, had a more graphic rationale.

"They make better to kill by being very short rounds, not big," Abbas said.

His imperfect English left some doubt whether he was referring to the M-16's smaller caliber or its reputedly tight firing pattern, but his intent was clear.

"One shot, one kill," he said.

Most weapons experts agree that the M-16, with its lighter punch, high-tech sights and accurate three-shot firing burst, is most effective in the hands of disciplined soldiers in highly trained tactical units.

Not everyone is convinced that soldiers who still do the valor dance that puffed Hussein's ego can be raised to that caliber.

"Without a wholesale change in military culture and training, the Iraqi army will not embrace the fundamentals of precision rifle marksmanship necessary to successfully employ the M-16," commentator Philip Carter, a former Army captain and now associate in McKenna Long & Aldridge law firm, wrote on his Internet blog.

Brig. Gen. Swan contends that the weapon itself will inculcate discipline in soldiers who are eager to emulate the Americans.

"They see what our soldiers do every day," Swan said. "There is a desire to be equipped the same."

They'll quickly learn that the rifle won't work if it isn't cleaned, he said.

Anthony Cordesman, a military analyst for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, sees the switch as a purely strategic step necessitated by the U.S. military's realization that it is going to have a long association with the Iraqi army.

"It's become very obvious you can't run a major network and supply system in Iraq without the Iraqi army becoming dependent on the U.S.," Cordesman said. "You're going to have to equip people with the weapon the U.S. equips, supports and trains with."

But, no matter what its strategic or tactical merits, the Iraqi army's adoption of the M-16 is indisputably symbolic, a choice of composite over wood and iron and West over East.

The meaning was impossible to miss in the smile on the face of a 3rd Brigade recruit who had just unwrapped his new weapon and declared it "the best," without having fired a shot.

Nothing is closer to a soldier's soul than his rifle, said Brig. Gen. Stephen Gledhill, a Briton who is Swan's second in command. "A soldier should love his rifle."

And the problem with the AK-47?

"It does represent the old regime," he said with practiced dryness.

doug.smith@latimes.com

Times staff writer Saif Rasheed contributed to this report.

Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:30:54 AM EDT

A large round and big kick give it a "spray and pray" shooting style that fits the needs of ill-trained armies, rebel groups and warlords.


Same catch-word BS used in any article pertaining to "assault rifles".
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:34:58 AM EDT
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:36:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Agreed.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:38:38 AM EDT
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:40:47 AM EDT
"Spray and pray shooting style"



They do realize it's piss poor training and piss poor fire discipline that's responsible for spray and pray fire, rather than the type of weapon, don't they?

I mean sheesh, I can fire an AK just as slow as an M-16 if I choose to. It won't be as accurate. But if you are a halfway decent shot you can still achieve combat level accuracy with an AK.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:04:43 AM EDT
After a year in Iraq as an MP advising the Iraqi Police I can tell you that the AK and the PK series of machine guns are the best weapons for Iraqi Security Forces(ISF). Cleaning equipment is pracically non existant, and the standard practice is to clean all weapons, including glock 19 pistols, is to use diesel fuel. The most common lube? None at all or at most the same diesel fuel. The M16/M4 series requires a little more care in order to function correctly.

These weapons can take the abuse handed out by ISF. You can clean an AK with a shoelace and a rag and believe me usually that's all they had. I was surprised by how little care their weapons recieved and still functioned. The AK has no small, easy to lose parts. The AK is reasonably accurate for the ranges typically encountered. And most Iraqi's know how to operate an AK.

All Iraqi's are not bad shots, I ran a range and the Iraqi's were hitting head shots at 25M. Although there was an IP (Iraqi Police) who took his stock off his rifle and another guy without a rear sight, he couldn't hit the ground. Not one IP was a decent shot with a pistol, however.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:05:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:08:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:08:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?


Are you F'n serious?

Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:09:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.Lets see could it be lack of options? Just like our Mil/LE.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers? They have experience being slaughtered, if Iraqis in general were better shots and more skilled combatants we would have a lot more dead troops.

Only Iraq.


So you disagree they would have been better served by a Sig 551 or FN FNC or even the AK-74?


Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:09:17 AM EDT
I wonder how soon it will be before insurgents suddenly are seen using 5.56 rifles...
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:10:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:10:46 AM EDT
I hope they teach the Iraqi soldiers how to clean their weapons.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:19:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 11:21:12 AM EDT by Screechjet1]

I hope they teach the Iraqi soldiers how to clean their weapons.



I bet, over time, a professional military with long service officers and NCOs will fix these problems. Especially if they're leavened by a collection of foreign advisors, like most Arab armies are.

Especially if those advisors have street cred, say from having fought with the Iraqis for a period of time.

Just a hunch.

Guys, look at it this way. The Iraqis are trying to emulate us. They see our success. They want the visible manifestations of that success. M-16s, our uniforms, etc.

The key will be teaching them that tools are a small part of the solution.

It would be nice for this thread if someone, say with first hand knowledge training Iraqis, could chime in and explain some of the cultural barriers from raising a decent Iraqi Army and how we're working to fix that.

ETA: No lube isn't necessarily a bad idea in dusty or sandy conditions. I'd rather have to replace a worn-out rifle, than have one jam on me.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:19:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:
Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.


Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:20:14 AM EDT
im at besmaya range right now, havent seen any M16's in iraqi hands but have heard about it. its supposedly being transitioned into their hands for identification purposes, making them easier to identify as friendlies.

i do agree though that ak's and PKM's are more suitable for them. PMCS isnt exactly a big part of the iraqi army's priorities right now, or ever for that matter. whats funny is that most iraqi military i have spoken with think our weapons are stupid. they say they require too much maintenance and training, and are unreliable. i guess our weapons and tactics would seem complicated when your SOP during contact is doing the death blossom with an ak that has the stock intentionally removed and is being fired from the hip.

i had an iraqi policeman throw his glock up on top of my tank unsolicited one time out in sector. he had this big grin, like he wanted to show it off. i gave him an ass chewing both about keeping control of his weapon and throwing a pistol at me.

i did see two lithuanian troops with an FN2000 and a G36, the IA seemed to have no problems eye fucking those though.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:21:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 11:23:18 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.





What kind of bubble do you live in?

It has been routinely reported they pay bribes to get in you would have had to be blind and deaf to miss these reports over several years, find it if you want… and considering the Iraqi army has had the largest number of troops besides the US fighingt non-stop for several years who the hell else would be the second most battle hardened Army.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:22:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:23:34 AM EDT
The biometric and such info being amassed is also to be used for locating the original owner of the rifle if it turns up in insurgent hands. i.e. Achmed sells his weapon to an insurgent or black market and said insurgent is whacked, the serial number on the rifle is traced back to Achmed. He then gets zip-tied and sandbagged for a trip to interrogation.

Interesting about the colonel who collected money for the Cali fire victims. The MSM would never have played that up. Even though it was obviously a symbolic gesture, those IA's probably don't make much $$$ but apparently donated. Hmmmm......a warm fuzzy for the Iraqis? Tell me it ain't so!
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:23:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.





What kind of bubble do you live in?

It has been routinely reported they pay bribes to get in you would have had to be blind and deaf to miss these reports over several years, find it if you want… and considering the Iraqi army has had the largest number of troops besides the US fighingt non-stop for several years who the hell else would be the second most battle hardened Army.


Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:26:27 AM EDT

Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.



Shit, let's skip the middle man and ask someone who is there.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:29:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:

Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.



Shit, let's skip the middle man and ask someone who is there.


If only someone who's been there could post their insight........
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:30:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:

Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.



Shit, let's skip the middle man and ask someone who is there.


Like Cincinnatus!


Anyway, I think they should have stuck with the AK. They all already know how to use the AK. Why switch arms types in the middle of a war? If they want to be "more like us" then start slapping rails and sights on the AKs. The Poles, Romanians, and a bunch of others do that with their AK types just fine.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:31:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:

Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.



Shit, let's skip the middle man and ask someone who is there.




Not him, who would he ask Cincinnatus for instance?

Let him go I can get the links when I want to but it is better to let the youngster follow his usual practice of digging a very deep hole before getting buried in it.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:40:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.



Articles....... Ohhhhh boy !



You might do well to learn who exactly it IS, that you're attempting to debate the subject with first.

Methinks he MIGHT have a tad more experience on the subject than you...

Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:42:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stoner63a:

A large round and big kick give it a "spray and pray" shooting style that fits the needs of ill-trained armies, rebel groups and warlords.


Same catch-word BS used in any article pertaining to "assault rifles".


But all very true about the AK47/AKM...

Note this was not applied to the M16....
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:45:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 11:48:43 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Folks challenging Cincinattus or ManicMoran about what is/is-not happening in Iraq... Allways interesting, to say the least....

Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.


I immagine the 'proof' is Cinci's combat experience in Iraq, working with them...

He is, IIRC a Field Grade officer in the Marines, and has done several tours....
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:54:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Folks challenging Cincinattus or ManicMoran about what is/is-not happening in Iraq... Allways interesting, to say the least....

Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.


I immagine the 'proof' is Cinci's combat experience in Iraq, working with them...

He is, IIRC a Field Grade officer in the Marines, and has done several tours....




Now hush, you're gonna go and deflate the whole thread just when it was about to get funnay
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:56:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Agreed.


Makes them all the easier to fight if we have to go in 10 years from now, again.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:57:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Belmont31R:
I wonder how soon it will be before insurgents suddenly are seen using 5.56 rifles...


Happened in 03' already.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:02:32 PM EDT
Where did he go?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:13:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Where did he go?

probably trying to get his roommate's buddy off his bed again
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:14:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 12:16:23 PM EDT by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.


They pay bribes. I know this because I was an advisor to the Iraqi Army.

I have also been to every province in Iraq, and been on the ground with every BCT and every RCT.
I know these things because they are facts that I have observed first hand.
Believe it or not, some things can be discerned without going to the MSM for "proof".

As far as "battle hardened" goes...

...have you heard about the WAR in Iraq?
It's a big one.
Pick up a newspaper.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:15:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By Belmont31R:
I wonder how soon it will be before insurgents suddenly are seen using 5.56 rifles...


Happened in 03' already.


Since Iran fields a version of the M16A1, this isn't suprising...

Plus they did capture arms from dead US troops...
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:16:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.


They pay bribes. I know this because I was an advisor to the Iraqi Army.

I have also been to every province in Iraq, and been on the ground with every BCT and every RCT.
I know these things because they are facts that I have observed first hand.



Ok I'll give ya props for that.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Agreed.


Makes them all the easier to fight if we have to go in 10 years from now, again.


Makes them easier to fight ALONGSIDE right now...

Ideally the IA should have Beretta 92s and M16s, or at least magazine-compatible weapons in 9mm and 5.56...

That way if a US soldier or Iraqi soldier runs out of ammo, they can cross-load...

You just have to teach the Iraqis to understand 'Toss me a mag'....

Doesn't work that well with AKs and Glocks/Makarovs...
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:20:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Very bad move.....Here we go again with JAMMO MATIC
16's again...

Think yhey will get cleaning kits?????Muchless use them
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:22:39 PM EDT

Makes them easier to fight ALONGSIDE right now...

Ideally the IA should have Beretta 92s and M16s, or at least magazine-compatible weapons in 9mm and 5.56...

That way if a US soldier or Iraqi soldier runs out of ammo, they can cross-load...

You just have to teach the Iraqis to understand 'Toss me a mag'....

Doesn't work that well with AKs and Glocks/Makarovs...



As a former Vietnam SF trooper told me....

"The most important phrase you can learn in any indig language is 'Please give me the radio.'"
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:31:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?




Proof of what?


Links to articles that say they pay bribes to get in and that they're the 2nd most battle hardened military.





What kind of bubble do you live in?

It has been routinely reported they pay bribes to get in you would have had to be blind and deaf to miss these reports over several years, find it if you want… and considering the Iraqi army has had the largest number of troops besides the US fighingt non-stop for several years who the hell else would be the second most battle hardened Army.


Then you would have no problem providing a link to a credible news source for me.



Could you please post links telling me that the sky is blue and that the world is round. I demand proof!
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:33:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter:

Originally Posted By Codename46:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


Proof?


Are you F'n serious?



+1



Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:33:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Agreed.


Makes them all the easier to fight if we have to go in 10 years from now, again.


Makes them easier to fight ALONGSIDE right now...

Ideally the IA should have Beretta 92s and M16s, or at least magazine-compatible weapons in 9mm and 5.56...

That way if a US soldier or Iraqi soldier runs out of ammo, they can cross-load...

You just have to teach the Iraqis to understand 'Toss me a mag'....

Doesn't work that well with AKs and Glocks/Makarovs...



So Iraq is joining NATO?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:37:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 12:37:34 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Mattl:
So Iraq is joining NATO?




They are fight along side us NOW.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:39:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By steve-oh:

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Finnicky rifle + Virtual conscripts = very bad


They should have went with a different rifle.


Agreed.


Makes them all the easier to fight if we have to go in 10 years from now, again.


Makes them easier to fight ALONGSIDE right now...

Ideally the IA should have Beretta 92s and M16s, or at least magazine-compatible weapons in 9mm and 5.56...

That way if a US soldier or Iraqi soldier runs out of ammo, they can cross-load...

You just have to teach the Iraqis to understand 'Toss me a mag'....

Doesn't work that well with AKs and Glocks/Makarovs...



So Iraq is joining NATO?


Nah... Even if they tried, the Eurosnobs would veto it...

But getting them on NATO calibers will be useful for the same reasons...

Our troops are fighting right along side them, as the train-up continues...

And assuming we win, they will stay US allies for the near future... So we might as well set them up for success, in case we meet on the SAME side of the battlefield in the future (ala South Korea)....
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:46:35 PM EDT
Just great. Now we'll have even higher 5.56 prices.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:48:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spartanatheart:
Just great. Now we'll have even higher 5.56 prices.


Because by jove, cheap ammo is more important than a stable Iraq.

Can't completely tell if that's sarcasm, so excuse me if I missed the mark.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 1:02:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spartanatheart:
Just great. Now we'll have even higher 5.56 prices.


Yep, those weekend bump-firing sessions are way more important than getting our Allies the tools they need to help us win the war...


Link Posted: 12/2/2007 1:09:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


you mean Israel?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 1:15:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uncle_ho:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Calling them "virtual conscripts" is silly.

They are all-volunteer. Heck, they pay bribes to get in.

And aside from the US, which nation's military has more combat experience and battle-hardened soldiers?

Only Iraq.


you mean Israel?


How often does Israel really go to war? And I don't mean lobbing a few rockets here and there but high-intensity conflict?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 1:20:33 PM EDT

Because by jove, cheap ammo is more important than a stable Iraq.



Millions of years from now, when humans are all dead & only miniscule molecules of life exist, the molecules in the Middle East will still be bitter enemies.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 1:22:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 1:22:50 PM EDT by Screechjet1]

you mean Israel?



Yep...at least the Iraqis can say for now that they didn't engineer the biggest defeat in the GWOT. I give you the 2006 Lebanon War
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