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Posted: 10/31/2006 10:20:23 AM EDT
I dont normally post E-mails, but this IMO is worth a read!




Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.


If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.


For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.


We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.


It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:22:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Good one, now along come the religion haters telling you this should be moved.

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:24:33 AM EDT
[#2]
Sad but true
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:38:09 AM EDT
[#3]
meh....religious kids (taught by religious parents) pray in school everyday.... in whatever religion they want..... just not a "school (state) sponsored one".

I mean lets be fair....if we dedicate 2 minutes each morning to every individual possible religion present in the school it could eat up half a class.

besides.... some kids pray before every test anyway... I'd just rather have mine be smart enough to pass it without requiring divine intervention.

No Expert

IBT[ISWH]

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:43:07 AM EDT
[#4]
So wait, let me get this straight: students are forbidden from praying?

So if a student wants to pray during, say, the lunch break, that is against the rules?



Weird.

I'm not religious, but I'd imagine that would be allowed...

Or did I misunderstand something?
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:44:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Yep.  Too many idiots today think that 'Freedom OF religion' actually means 'freedom FROM religion'.  

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:47:34 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
Good one, now along come the religion haters telling you this should be moved.




How about someone who is obsessed with factual accuracy, telling him that it is deceptively inaccurate.


Voluntary prayer is absolutely allowed in public schools (along with all other forms of free expression), as long as it is not LEAD by school officials, or involves funding (or official endorsement) by the school.  

In fact, under the right to "freedom of expression" the ACLU has on mutliple occasions gone to court to fight for the rights of Christian student groups in public schools to pray, and to hand out Christian materials.


The claim that any form of prayer is not allowed in public school is at best an urban legend or misleading, and at worst an outright lie.  
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:49:08 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good one, now along come the religion haters telling you this should be moved.




How about someone who is obsessed with factual accuracy, telling him that it is deceptively inaccurate.


Voluntary prayer is absolutely allowed in public schools (along with all other forms of free expression), as long as it is not LEAD by school officials, or involves funding (or official endorsement) by the school.  

In fact, under the right to "freedom of expression" the ACLU has on mutliple occasions gone to court to fight for the rights of Christian student groups in public schools to pray, and to hand out Christian materials.


The claim that any form of prayer is not allowed in public school is at best an urban legend or misleading, and at worst an outright lie.  


So why do so many schools no longer permit Christmas parties? Not even Christmas colors? No Nativity scenes?

Its a war on Christianity, no doubt.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:51:35 AM EDT
[#8]
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:01:13 AM EDT
[#9]
I never followed the rules....I had to go in front of the school bored once because of this.  They told me that "your actions are offending others"  my reply " Well lets see...my teachers that smoke weed, my teacher that is a dyke(spelling?)  and all the gay/queer people offend me. So if you want me to quit, get rid of them and I'll stop"  Never said anything else to me about it....ever.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:15:51 AM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
Yep.  Too many idiots today think that 'Freedom OF religion' actually means 'freedom FROM religion'.  


It is a freedom FROM religion. As in, It's their choice. Too many idiots think the world will be ruined if not every single person is a "christian"
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:22:50 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
I never followed the rules....I had to go in front of the school bored once because of this.  They told me that "your actions are offending others"  my reply " Well lets see...my teachers that smoke weed, my teacher that is a dyke(spelling?)  and all the gay/queer people offend me. So if you want me to quit, get rid of them and I'll stop"  Never said anything else to me about it....ever.


You'll go far in life, I'm sure.
Too bad you didn't pay attention in class, instead of being a pain in the ass - then you might know the difference between the "school bored" and the "school board"

ETA: What were your actions that were offending others?
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:28:48 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good one, now along come the religion haters telling you this should be moved.




How about someone who is obsessed with factual accuracy, telling him that it is deceptively inaccurate.


Voluntary prayer is absolutely allowed in public schools (along with all other forms of free expression), as long as it is not LEAD by school officials, or involves funding (or official endorsement) by the school.  

In fact, under the right to "freedom of expression" the ACLU has on mutliple occasions gone to court to fight for the rights of Christian student groups in public schools to pray, and to hand out Christian materials.


The claim that any form of prayer is not allowed in public school is at best an urban legend or misleading, and at worst an outright lie.  


So why do so many schools no longer permit Christmas parties? Not even Christmas colors? No Nativity scenes?

Its a war on Christianity, no doubt.


As soon as it becomes a school-sanctioned event, or an event that is using school facilities of funds, then administrators have to worry about liability from atheist nucases who freak out and sue the entire school district.  

I'm not claiming that there aren't retarded restrictions in place  - but like schools who no longer want to allow kids to play tag or dodgeball, it's mostly because of litigious parents who threaten to SUE, not necessarily because of some hatred of Christianity or agenda on the part of educators.


I'm just saying that it is incorrect to claim that it is forbidden to pray in school, and that no religious materials are allowed by individual students.  

If you know of a school that forbids students from bringing their own Bible to school, for instance, or prevents them from praying in the lunch room, or during breaks, for instance - then you should absolutely call the local ACLU, and I'd be stunned if they didn't offer to sue the school on behalf of those students.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:43:45 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
As soon as it becomes a school-sanctioned event, or an event that is using school facilities of funds, then administrators have to worry about liability from atheist nucases who freak out and sue the entire school district.

Funny, but it wasn't "atheist nutcases" who sued a school (and lost) in California where kids were forced to adopt a Muslim name and recite Islamic prayers out of the Koran and "become Muslims" as part of a "cultural education" assignment.


According To Some Federal Courts And Public Schools: Christianity Out, Islam In

October 10, 2006.

A three-week intensive indoctrination into the Islamic faith by a California public school district was allowed to stand by the U. S. Supreme Court last week. A California federal trial court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had earlier ruled that such indoctrination was constitutional.
.
.
.
The materials used by Byron Union School District seventh graders stated, “From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims.” Students were instructed to accept as “fact” that Jihad is “a struggle by Muslims against oppression, invasion, and injustice,” and to accept as “truth” that the Koran “is God’s word as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.” Students were taught the five duties (Pillars of Faith) all Muslims must fulfill and were required to complete a project for each duty, including fasting, in order to pass.
.
.
.
Impressionable twelve-year-old students were required to take Islamic names, wear identification tags that displayed their new Islamic name and the Star and Crescent Moon. Students also were handed materials that instructed them to “remember Allah always so that you may prosper,” and memorized and recited the “Bismillah” or “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate,” which students also wrote on banners that were hung on the classroom walls. Students also had to memorize parts of Islamic prayers and verses from the Koran.

Thompson continued, “No federal court would have permitted a class where public school students were taught to ‘become Catholics’ for three weeks, selected a saint’s name, wore identification tags that displayed their new name and a Crucifix, and engaged in Catholic religious practices. Here, however, students were subjected to Islamic religious indoctrination and propaganda and the courts turned a blind eye. The Supreme Court missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the Establishment Clause is to be applied the same to all religions and is not just a weapon to be used only against Christians.”
.
.
.

So where was the ACLU on this?


Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:54:09 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As soon as it becomes a school-sanctioned event, or an event that is using school facilities of funds, then administrators have to worry about liability from atheist nucases who freak out and sue the entire school district.

Funny, but it wasn't "atheist nutcases" who sued a school (and lost) in California where kids were forced to adopt a Muslim name and recite Islamic prayers out of the Koran and "become Muslims" as part of a "cultural education" assignment.


According To Some Federal Courts And Public Schools: Christianity Out, Islam In

October 10, 2006.

A three-week intensive indoctrination into the Islamic faith by a California public school district was allowed to stand by the U. S. Supreme Court last week. A California federal trial court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had earlier ruled that such indoctrination was constitutional.
.
.
.
The materials used by Byron Union School District seventh graders stated, “From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims.” Students were instructed to accept as “fact” that Jihad is “a struggle by Muslims against oppression, invasion, and injustice,” and to accept as “truth” that the Koran “is God’s word as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.” Students were taught the five duties (Pillars of Faith) all Muslims must fulfill and were required to complete a project for each duty, including fasting, in order to pass.
.
.
.
Impressionable twelve-year-old students were required to take Islamic names, wear identification tags that displayed their new Islamic name and the Star and Crescent Moon. Students also were handed materials that instructed them to “remember Allah always so that you may prosper,” and memorized and recited the “Bismillah” or “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate,” which students also wrote on banners that were hung on the classroom walls. Students also had to memorize parts of Islamic prayers and verses from the Koran.

Thompson continued, “No federal court would have permitted a class where public school students were taught to ‘become Catholics’ for three weeks, selected a saint’s name, wore identification tags that displayed their new name and a Crucifix, and engaged in Catholic religious practices. Here, however, students were subjected to Islamic religious indoctrination and propaganda and the courts turned a blind eye. The Supreme Court missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the Establishment Clause is to be applied the same to all religions and is not just a weapon to be used only against Christians.”
.
.
.

So where was the ACLU on this?





+1 But theres no war on Christianity
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:59:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 12:06:21 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As soon as it becomes a school-sanctioned event, or an event that is using school facilities of funds, then administrators have to worry about liability from atheist nucases who freak out and sue the entire school district.

Funny, but it wasn't "atheist nutcases" who sued a school (and lost) in California where kids were forced to adopt a Muslim name and recite Islamic prayers out of the Koran and "become Muslims" as part of a "cultural education" assignment.


According To Some Federal Courts And Public Schools: Christianity Out, Islam In

October 10, 2006.

A three-week intensive indoctrination into the Islamic faith by a California public school district was allowed to stand by the U. S. Supreme Court last week. A California federal trial court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had earlier ruled that such indoctrination was constitutional.
.
.
.
The materials used by Byron Union School District seventh graders stated, “From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims.” Students were instructed to accept as “fact” that Jihad is “a struggle by Muslims against oppression, invasion, and injustice,” and to accept as “truth” that the Koran “is God’s word as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.” Students were taught the five duties (Pillars of Faith) all Muslims must fulfill and were required to complete a project for each duty, including fasting, in order to pass.
.
.
.
Impressionable twelve-year-old students were required to take Islamic names, wear identification tags that displayed their new Islamic name and the Star and Crescent Moon. Students also were handed materials that instructed them to “remember Allah always so that you may prosper,” and memorized and recited the “Bismillah” or “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate,” which students also wrote on banners that were hung on the classroom walls. Students also had to memorize parts of Islamic prayers and verses from the Koran.

Thompson continued, “No federal court would have permitted a class where public school students were taught to ‘become Catholics’ for three weeks, selected a saint’s name, wore identification tags that displayed their new name and a Crucifix, and engaged in Catholic religious practices. Here, however, students were subjected to Islamic religious indoctrination and propaganda and the courts turned a blind eye. The Supreme Court missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the Establishment Clause is to be applied the same to all religions and is not just a weapon to be used only against Christians.”
.
.
.

So where was the ACLU on this?




I have no idea.  You're a member of the ACLU aren't you? - why don't you call them and ask?  

I don't know anything about that specific case (except seeing it mentioned on ar15.com).  I personally agree that it is compeltely unacceptable in a public school - especially with younger kids -  and inconsistent with how I understand court interpretations of the so-called "seperation of church and state"

My guess is that they got around it because it was in the context of some kind fo "social studies" class, and since it was for a finite 3-week period, and not something that is done EVERY DAY all year long, it's harder to see it as some kind fo state endorsement of a particular religion - but it really ought to have been balanced by three weeks as a Catholic, three weeks as an observant Jew, and three weeks as a Buddhist, in my opinion.  Perhaps there was some balance - does anyone know anythign else abotu the rest of this "class"?




However - in my defense, I'd like to point out that this is a VERY DIFFERENT case from what I suggested in an earlier post - where I said that the ACLU might be very interested in defending students that were prohibited from expressing their personal faith individually in school (like bringing their personal bible, or praying in the lunch room or during breaks).

I don't know the ACLU's stance on the case you describe, but I am pretty confident in their stance on the different situation I described.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 1:40:17 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
As soon as it becomes a school-sanctioned event, or an event that is using school facilities of funds, then administrators have to worry about liability from atheist nucases who freak out and sue the entire school district.

Funny, but it wasn't "atheist nutcases" who sued a school (and lost) in California where kids were forced to adopt a Muslim name and recite Islamic prayers out of the Koran and "become Muslims" as part of a "cultural education" assignment.


According To Some Federal Courts And Public Schools: Christianity Out, Islam In

October 10, 2006.

A three-week intensive indoctrination into the Islamic faith by a California public school district was allowed to stand by the U. S. Supreme Court last week. A California federal trial court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had earlier ruled that such indoctrination was constitutional.
.
.
.
The materials used by Byron Union School District seventh graders stated, “From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims.” Students were instructed to accept as “fact” that Jihad is “a struggle by Muslims against oppression, invasion, and injustice,” and to accept as “truth” that the Koran “is God’s word as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.” Students were taught the five duties (Pillars of Faith) all Muslims must fulfill and were required to complete a project for each duty, including fasting, in order to pass.
.
.
.
Impressionable twelve-year-old students were required to take Islamic names, wear identification tags that displayed their new Islamic name and the Star and Crescent Moon. Students also were handed materials that instructed them to “remember Allah always so that you may prosper,” and memorized and recited the “Bismillah” or “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate,” which students also wrote on banners that were hung on the classroom walls. Students also had to memorize parts of Islamic prayers and verses from the Koran.

Thompson continued, “No federal court would have permitted a class where public school students were taught to ‘become Catholics’ for three weeks, selected a saint’s name, wore identification tags that displayed their new name and a Crucifix, and engaged in Catholic religious practices. Here, however, students were subjected to Islamic religious indoctrination and propaganda and the courts turned a blind eye. The Supreme Court missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the Establishment Clause is to be applied the same to all religions and is not just a weapon to be used only against Christians.”
.
.
.

So where was the ACLU on this?




I have no idea.  You're a member of the ACLU aren't you? - why don't you call them and ask?  

Doh!




Hey, come to think of it - didn't I see you at the last meeting too?
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