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Posted: 3/13/2005 10:27:45 AM EST
Reading about the new SAT, it seems as though academia hasn't destroyed boys chances of going to college yet, so they are trying harder.
instead of math being worth half the points, it is now only 1/3rd of the points. Reading is one third and writing is one third with a subjective essay. Think the graders won't mark off for penmanship (where boys traditionaly do much worse)
Also, they got rid of analogies and quantitative analysis from the language arts portions. You know, the parts where boys also do better.
Then the fucking morons say that the test better reflects what is required for college, when this country can't produce enough engineers, accountants and people with actual skills.
We are producing a nation of people with BFAs and socialogy degrees, ignoring math skills and wondering why stupid jackasses with a MFA in art history works at starbucks.
WHO ARE THE FUCKING IDIOTS WHO ARE DOING THIS TO OUR CHILDREN??!?!?!?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:30:09 AM EST
I fucking hate essays that are graded on standardized tests. I have terrible penmanship and I took the SAT II for english. I got every single multiple choice question right, every single one, and the lowest possible score for the essay. Luckily it didnt hurt me too much cause the multiple choice was weighted heavier, but still, I'm glad i dont have to take this new SAT I.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:33:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 10:37:33 AM EST by Penguin_101]
New SAT designed to hurt Boys?

Duh! They don't want to help the children, just get the media and make money.

ETA: You know how many of the test prep books they have out there. Now they have to rewrite everybook and every school, library, family has to get new ones and the old ones go to the trash.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:35:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

WHO ARE THE FUCKING IDIOTS WHO ARE DOING THIS TO OUR CHILDREN??!?!?!?



Teachers' union.


No competiton. Teachers can be dumber than shit and still keep their jobs.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:44:16 AM EST
I never even picked up one of those SAT prep books, and got an 1110(I suck at math). I realize that a lot of people need help with tests like that, but I've never put much stock in those books/programs/mind control tapes/etc... if you don't know the material, you won't get the answer right.
That aside, the SAT was full of loaded questions, idiotic essays, and other mindless drivel when I took it. Thanks, NEA!
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:45:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:51:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Won't matter.

Tests only get you into school. It won't help you later in life.

What you do AFTER school is what counts.

So, try as they may, the liberal asshats aren't going to fool Mother Nature!

(Notice I didn't say 'God'! Bad things I tend to blame on Mother Nature)

Eric The(Multi-culturalBullshiite)Hun


It does matter. SAT scores determine scholarships and whether you go to a name school or not. These things have huge impacts.
I don't see where a society that has identified math skills as being deficient has determined that downgrading math in importance will help.
This change seems specifically designed to further erode what math skills our children have left.
My son is in 1st grade. 90% of his time is spent on reading and writing. All math is done at home
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:52:28 AM EST
I disagree ETH.


It DOES matter because if this allows more women to get into college, which is a waste of their skills, then society as a whole will have a more liberal voice.


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:54:41 AM EST
Essays also make affirmative action through the "back door" possible, where objective math and mulitple choice questions wouldn't...kind of like the points given for "community service".
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:55:49 AM EST
When I entered U of Delaware in 2000, our class was 60% female, 40% male. And some people still complained girls were underrepresented.

Kharn
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:04:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:14:33 AM EST
If I hadn't done well on the writing portion of the SAT, I wouldn't have made the minimal scholarship that I did. I took an electronic SAT that skipped the basic math portion. Had it given me the entire math section of the SAT instead of just the algebra, my math grade would have been high enough that I wouldn't be forced to take a stupid college algebra course this semester.

It's been four years since I did math and I've never once had to solve for X. When I'm teaching a history class or writing a book, at what point will I suddenly have to be able to determine the distance a penny fell after accounting for gravity, friction of the atmosphere, and angle of descent within a fifteen second period?

I'm not an engineer. I don't work for NASA. The only time I've ever needed a calculator was for the stupid class. By all means, give kids a better grounding in math than they're getting now, they need it; but why do I have to take a course I will never use, involuntarily, because somebody else screwed up? I'll never use this crap!

That said, if you're male, the school system is entirely geared AGAINST you. All your natural instincts are to supressed, creativy is to be stifled, and every attempt will be made to hold you back in order to "make things fair for everyone else".

Thus, the liberals are slowly but surely achieving their goal of absolute equality. After all, when everyone is equally STUPID...
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:15:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Won't matter.

Tests only get you into school. It won't help you later in life.

What you do AFTER school is what counts.

So, try as they may, the liberal asshats aren't going to fool Mother Nature!

(Notice I didn't say 'God'! Bad things I tend to blame on Mother Nature)

Eric The(Multi-culturalBullshiite)Hun


It does matter. SAT scores determine scholarships and whether you go to a name school or not. These things have huge impacts.
I don't see where a society that has identified math skills as being deficient has determined that downgrading math in importance will help.
This change seems specifically designed to further erode what math skills our children have left.
My son is in 1st grade. 90% of his time is spent on reading and writing. All math is done at home



Call the school and tell them to teach them math at school. 1st graders around here are to only have 10 minutes of homework. (10 min per grade)
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:16:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
If I hadn't done well on the writing portion of the SAT, I wouldn't have made the minimal scholarship that I did. I took an electronic SAT that skipped the basic math portion. Had it given me the entire math section of the SAT instead of just the algebra, my math grade would have been high enough that I wouldn't be forced to take a stupid college algebra course this semester.

It's been four years since I did math and I've never once had to solve for X. When I'm teaching a history class or writing a book, at what point will I suddenly have to be able to determine the distance a penny fell after accounting for gravity, friction of the atmosphere, and angle of descent within a fifteen second period?

I'm not an engineer. I don't work for NASA. The only time I've ever needed a calculator was for the stupid class. By all means, give kids a better grounding in math than they're getting now, they need it; but why do I have to take a course I will never use, involuntarily, because somebody else screwed up? I'll never use this crap!

That said, if you're male, the school system is entirely geared AGAINST you. All your natural instincts are to supressed, creativy is to be stifled, and every attempt will be made to hold you back in order to "make things fair for everyone else".

Thus, the liberals are slowly but surely achieving their goal of absolute equality. After all, when everyone is equally STUPID...


No shortage of history teachers. What sport do you coach?
There is a shortage of americans who can do math. We import them from bangladesh and india.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:17:52 AM EST
never took the SAT but I suck at math. 7 years ago when I should have taken them I actually might have if Math didn't count as much.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:21:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 11:22:10 AM EST by Penguin_101]

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
If I hadn't done well on the writing portion of the SAT, I wouldn't have made the minimal scholarship that I did. I took an electronic SAT that skipped the basic math portion. Had it given me the entire math section of the SAT instead of just the algebra, my math grade would have been high enough that I wouldn't be forced to take a stupid college algebra course this semester.

It's been four years since I did math and I've never once had to solve for X. When I'm teaching a history class or writing a book, at what point will I suddenly have to be able to determine the distance a penny fell after accounting for gravity, friction of the atmosphere, and angle of descent within a fifteen second period?

I'm not an engineer. I don't work for NASA. The only time I've ever needed a calculator was for the stupid class. By all means, give kids a better grounding in math than they're getting now, they need it; but why do I have to take a course I will never use, involuntarily, because somebody else screwed up? I'll never use this crap!



When have you ever used poetry in life? (A part of writting that I don't even know if it is on the test.)

Also, why learn to spell. Computers are our future and are made of MATH!
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:22:24 AM EST
Perhaps rather than diluting math skills they are
increasing the emphasis on communication and
comprehension skills. I would think that's a good thing.
On a day to day basis ones' ability to handle com/com
is more important than his math skill.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:33:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Londo:
On a day to day basis ones' ability to handle com/com
is more important than his math skill.




you need both


... and I'd say given this countries shortage of tech types who can do "math" type work "math skill" is currently in need of more attention
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:34:19 AM EST
My daughter took the SAT yesterday, and her comments were the verbal parts were pretty tough.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:55:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 11:56:22 AM EST by Bucket]

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
If I hadn't done well on the writing portion of the SAT, I wouldn't have made the minimal scholarship that I did. I took an electronic SAT that skipped the basic math portion. Had it given me the entire math section of the SAT instead of just the algebra, my math grade would have been high enough that I wouldn't be forced to take a stupid college algebra course this semester.

It's been four years since I did math and I've never once had to solve for X. When I'm teaching a history class or writing a book, at what point will I suddenly have to be able to determine the distance a penny fell after accounting for gravity, friction of the atmosphere, and angle of descent within a fifteen second period?

I'm not an engineer. I don't work for NASA. The only time I've ever needed a calculator was for the stupid class. By all means, give kids a better grounding in math than they're getting now, they need it; but why do I have to take a course I will never use, involuntarily, because somebody else screwed up? I'll never use this crap!



The problem with that way of thinking is that without a modicum of math skills, people are not QUALIFIED to even have an opinion on a variety of subjects that REQUIRE some basic calculation ability and grasp of theory. People that are ignorant of basic math are SHEEPLE that must rely on others to figure things out for them regarding a gambit of issues that we as a voting public should be able to figure out for ourselves. The current Social Security issue is an example where some knowlege of compound interest is required....unless you want to believe the USA Today version and Paul Krugman of the NY Times.

Another problem is with jury trials involving any type of expert testimony that may involve physics, finance or, God forbid, stastics. Without the skills to understand what is being said by the witness, he may as well be testifying in a foreign language.

I do think our nation is selling our young people short on math. When I went to college, every higher level math class that I had was student taught by a foreign born grad student. It's really not good that most of the post grads in the math dept had to be imported. It doesn't speak well of our school system.

With that said, my young daughter is receiving pretty good instruction at our public school in both math and english. So far, I'm happy. We'll see how it goes year by year.

Buck
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:59:28 AM EST
Speaking only for Clemson University, they are still going place 95% of the emphasis on the math and verbal section. They will only look at the essay part if a student is on the border. At least until it is proven to be fair and effective.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:35:50 PM EST
Let me preface this by saying I have a bachelors degree in mathematics and feel tah tit is supremely important.

That said, kids today ALSO cannot write to save their lives

Verbal and writing skills are pathetic across the board, boys and girls.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:41:18 PM EST
The subjective esay is proof of complete, total ridiocy on the administrative level.

It simply blows the entire point of a standardized, mathematical and multiple-choice test.
~~~~~
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:42:53 PM EST
My impression was that the math portion of the SAT has actually been made HARDER, which should benefit boys.

I am troubled by the essay question, but I'm sure the SAT people have thought long and hard about how to grade it - and it's really more of a "long answer" than an "essay" anyway, so they're probably mostly looking for content, not style (my impression is that it's a reading comprehension and organization kind of thing, not a test of prose or writing style).

I could be wrong, and I admittedly don't know that much about the precise new format.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:48:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 12:49:31 PM EST by SevenMMmag]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
My impression was that the math portion of the SAT has actually been made HARDER, which should benefit boys.

I am troubled by the essay question, but I'm sure the SAT people have thought long and hard about how to grade it - and it's really more of a "long answer" than an "essay" anyway, so they're probably mostly looking for content, not style (my impression is that it's a reading comprehension and organization kind of thing, not a test of prose or writing style).

I could be wrong, and I admittedly don't know that much about the precise new format.



Yea, the math is "harder", but not by much. It basically stratches the surface of basic Algebra 2 concepts.

The new essay section of the SAT is basically a rehash of the SAT II Writing Test's essay portion. It is a timed "essay" that makes you respond to a given statement or question. Its supposed to test logical organization, presentation of thought, basic writing conventions, and style. I beleive its graded by 2 readers, and a third reader will grade it if there is a large discrepency between the scores.

That being said, this "essay" truly is bullshit, as even one with the most basic ability to convey his thoughts in writing should make a decent score.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:51:08 PM EST
Penmanship and the ability to write in such a way that people can understand what the fuck you are talking about are seriously lacking in today's world, so I'm all for it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 12:59:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
No shortage of history teachers. What sport do you coach?
There is a shortage of americans who can do math. We import them from bangladesh and india.



If you mean H1-B workers, those people are imported because they have specific computer skills, not because they are mathematical experts. For most programming jobs, all you need is a basic understanding or algebra, if that.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 1:00:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By Londo:
On a day to day basis ones' ability to handle com/com
is more important than his math skill.




you need both


... and I'd say given this countries shortage of tech types who can do "math" type work "math skill" is currently in need of more attention



What shortage is that? That's news to me.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 1:55:08 PM EST
can anyone report back of what the essay topics were?

this may be a little extreme, but i'm interested if a liberal slanted topic could have possibly been used to flush out any conservative thinking. the "graders" could now subjectively filter the students and bias part of their grade.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 2:01:10 PM EST
Took the onld one a year ago and the new one yesterday. Verbal is easy, I did a 720 on no prep last year, this year I think I'll do even better. The essay might be tough, its about stupid shit and they grade it fairly subjectively. I scored poorly on math last time, a 390, I ran out of time to answer. This year I managed my time better and I think my math scores will be much better.

Yes, its almost entirely verbal, which I excel at. The math sections were small and seemed easy. No science whatsoever, or history, and the questions were DEFINITELY written by liberals.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 2:02:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By mikNtx:
can anyone report back of what the essay topics were?

this may be a little extreme, but i'm interested if a liberal slanted topic could have possibly been used to flush out any conservative thinking. the "graders" could now subjectively filter the students and bias part of their grade.




My topic was: Is there enough creativity in the world today?

I shoulda fucked with them

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:50:49 PM EST
Well, not only does it target boys by playing down the sections that they traditionally do better in, the writing sample weeds out a lot of the foreign nationals who don't speak a word of english.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:54:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

WHO ARE THE FUCKING IDIOTS WHO ARE DOING THIS TO OUR CHILDREN??!?!?!?



Teachers' union.


No competiton. Teachers can be dumber than shit and still keep their jobs.




+1, "those who cannot do; teach"
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:57:27 PM EST

Reading.

Writing.

Arithmetic.


Stick to the basics.

BTW... yes I believe it will hurt boys average scores even more. All part of the plan.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:00:34 PM EST

Oh one more thing -


How many points will blacks and hispanics get added to their scores for "race & ethnicity norming"?

Damn fricking culturally ghettofied, ebonified, spanglishified and all-around-dumbed-down race-baiting nitwits - you can add 50 points to their average scores and they STILL will come up short on average comparisons.

Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:02:42 PM EST
Dont worry if they still do poorly the lower requirments to get in will help them too
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:25:53 PM EST
hell, thats why i only took the ACT when i was in highschool (29). I knew the SAT had less science/math, which was the stuff i liked. my worst section was english. my school accepted the ACT only, so i went with that.

the SAT can suck it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:42:37 PM EST
Every few years our educational system suddenly discovers it no longer needs to teach phonics. They teach some BS called whole language. What they do is point at the new word and tell the student what it is. I call it the "look-guess" method. You have seen these kids, ask them to read out loud. What they do, when they get to a word with more than 4 letters is they look at the first few, and guess what it is from the 500 or 600 memorized words they know.

My wife and I have both taught remedial reading.

PHONICS!!!

If you can't read, you can't do anything else, including math.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:31:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Oh one more thing -


How many points will blacks and hispanics get added to their scores for "race & ethnicity norming"?

Damn fricking culturally ghettofied, ebonified, spanglishified and all-around-dumbed-down race-baiting nitwits - you can add 50 points to their average scores and they STILL will come up short on average comparisons.




There was no place to enter race, IIRC. None whatsoever.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 11:34:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Every few years our educational system suddenly discovers it no longer needs to teach phonics. They teach some BS called whole language. What they do is point at the new word and tell the student what it is. I call it the "look-guess" method. You have seen these kids, ask them to read out loud. What they do, when they get to a word with more than 4 letters is they look at the first few, and guess what it is from the 500 or 600 memorized words they know.

My wife and I have both taught remedial reading.

PHONICS!!!

If you can't read, you can't do anything else, including math.



Including technical words and words from other languages, English has 1/2 to 3/4 of a million words. try that without phonics!

Reminds me of the kids in elementary school who learned numbers and addition with some fancy technique of looking at their fingers. they had to relearn it when they got to multiplication and basica algebra.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:03:45 AM EST
I really liked the analogies section. It seemed like a simple, elegant way to measure vocabulary and pattern-finding skills.

The test should be made harder, if only to discriminate between the ~500 perfect scorers each year :)

IMHO there should be two math tracks in high school - a "non-majors" track that ignores trig and calculus and just hammers on what's important for life, like COMPOUND INTEREST (i.e. why you need to save money in stock funds) and PROBABILITY (i.e. why not to play Lotto). Then add a "hard-core" math track that covers single-variable calculus inside and out so no college time will be wasted on it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:34:00 AM EST
I heard that colleges don't even look at SATs like they used to in terms of importance. Not to mention, around here it costs like $40 to take it. I never took a SAT and finished school just fine.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:39:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 12:42:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By dmaas:


IMHO there should be two math tracks in high school - a "non-majors" track that ignores trig and calculus and just hammers on what's important for life, like COMPOUND INTEREST (i.e. why you need to save money in stock funds) and PROBABILITY (i.e. why not to play Lotto). Then add a "hard-core" math track that covers single-variable calculus inside and out so no college time will be wasted on it.



Big +1
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:15:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 6:16:17 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Oh one more thing -

How many points will blacks and hispanics get added to their scores for "race & ethnicity norming"?

Damn fricking culturally ghettofied, ebonified, spanglishified and all-around-dumbed-down race-baiting nitwits - you can add 50 points to their average scores and they STILL will come up short on average comparisons.

There was no place to enter race, IIRC. None whatsoever.


Oh yeah, that's right.

They don't add points when you take the test - it's the Colleges and Universities that add 250 points to black kids' scores when they get the applications (which are sorted by race and ethnicity).

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:22:04 AM EST
America's schoolchildren need better penmanship and writing skills anyway.

I say it's a good idea.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:22:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 6:38:14 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
I heard that colleges don't even look at SATs like they used to in terms of importance.


That's because it shows how bad Blacks and Hispanics are at math, reading and writing. For example:

1993 Mean SAT Scores (scale 400-1600)
Of Incoming Freshman At Berkeley:

* Asian: 1293
* White: 1256
* Hispanic: 1032
* Black: 994


And these are the ones who got ACCEPTED - just think how low all those "diverse" kids do in general.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:30:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By mattja:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
No shortage of history teachers. What sport do you coach?
There is a shortage of americans who can do math. We import them from bangladesh and india.



If you mean H1-B workers, those people are imported because they have specific computer skills, not because they are mathematical experts. For most programming jobs, all you need is a basic understanding or algebra, if that.



Erm, to be a really good programmer you need a very good grasp of discrete math. If all you know is algebra, you'd make a shitty programmer. Same with the EE folks IIT is churning out. Math education in the US is a joke, and the relatively small group of serious math educators are pissed and worried abt it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:34:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
instead of math being worth half the points, it is now only 1/3rd of the points. Reading is one third and writing is one third with a subjective essay. Think the graders won't mark off for penmanship (where boys traditionaly do much worse)

Then the fucking morons say that the test better reflects what is required for college



Well, I have to agree with the 'morons'. I never took a single math class in college (AP credit in HS), but I did write a crap load of essays, and I was a Biology major.

Having a 50% math test for college placement is silly IMHO. Not all of us go to school to become engineers.

BTW, I never had to take the SATs, I had to take the ACT instead.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:47:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Post from Sylvan -

It does matter.

Not really.

No client of mine ever asked me what my LSAT score was, nor has any Judge or opposing attorney.




I'll bet more than one client has asked what law school you attended and your alma mater certainly was a factor if you ever had an interview with a law firm. Furthermore, prospective clients (even the ones you don't know about) research this before even contacting an attorney. Doing well on the LSAT is crucial for getting into a good law school just as doing well on the SAT is crucial for getting into a good undergrad school. The difference between going to a good school and going to a mediocre one is like night and day as far as job prospects.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:52:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
New SAT designed to hurt Boys?

Duh! They don't want to help the children, just get the media and make money.

ETA: You know how many of the test prep books they have out there. Now they have to rewrite everybook and every school, library, family has to get new ones and the old ones go to the trash.



Test prep book? You HAVE to have a prep book to prepare? Granted, I took it many years ago but I prepared by learning what they were trying to teach me in school. We did a one or two day prep in school and that was it.

Our schools have stopped teaching kids and started just cramming for the next exam. There seems to be little long-term learning anymore. Just get past this exam, purge that info. and start cramming for thenext one. Sad. Really sad.
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