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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/6/2002 9:26:44 PM EDT
Radio station KFWB is one of the two all news radio stations in L.A. Calif. ============================================================ [url]http://kfwb.com/news/nat/n020615.html[/url] New Rule to Bar Certain Foreigners From Buying Guns in U.S. WASHINGTON (AP) 2.06.02, 7:45p -- The Bush administration has adopted a temporary rule barring certain foreign visitors, workers and students from buying guns or ammunition in the United States. While changes were under consideration for several years, the action by the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was accelerated by the Sept. 11 terror attacks, government officials said. Under the temporary rule to take effect on Feb. 19, so-called nonimmigrant aliens, with some exceptions, would no longer be allowed to buy guns or ammunition in the United States, officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity. The exceptions are diplomats, foreign law enforcement officials and visiting dignitaries designated by the State Department. Falling under the definition of nonimmigrant aliens are people traveling temporarily to the United States for business or pleasure; people studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad and certain foreign workers, officials said. The temporary rule doesn't apply to legal immigrants. And, people in the United States illegally are already forbidden from buying a gun in this country. The temporary rule will stay in effect until final regulations are adopted. In addition, the rule says that "any person who is not a United States citizen must include his or her INS-issued alien number or admission number on Form 4473," the form used for gun purchase background checks. That should help ensure that people whose visas have expired won't be able to buy a gun in this country, officials and a gun-safety group said. "This is an important first step," said Matt Bennett, spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety. The rule also requires foreigners wanting to bring a gun into the United States for hunting or sporting purposes to first obtain a federal permit through the ATF, something that will allow the government to better track such guns, one official said. Currently, foreigners can bring a gun into this country for hunting and sporting purposes without a ATF permit as long as they satisfy U.S. Customs Service agents. The temporary rule seeks to clarify ATF's implementation of a 1998 law that addressed certain foreigners' access of firearms in the United States.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 9:30:02 PM EDT
So we are supposed to ask for a passport before selling ammo?
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:47:12 PM EDT
for hunting or sporting purposes to first obtain a federal permit through the ATF
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Great, this looks like the first small steps of the BATF's attempt to shutdown the hunting industry. According to a friend that manages some hunting land, works as a guide, and does some firearms instruction in Clinton, SC, over half of their business is with foreigners. His wife handles the local travel details, including transportation, lodging and tours of Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC for the hunters. Their customers come here just because we have such relaxed gun laws. I'll have to call him when I get a chance to see what he thinks of this, but this crap might put him and his wife out of a job. We wouldn't want those wealthy European, Mexican and Japanese businessmen to come visit us, spend their money, pay outrageous prices to walk around in the woods, and hunt. I don't hunt, and I never will, but I still think this is a ridiculous rule.z
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 12:03:11 AM EDT
Thanks; I've let some of my Canadian friends (most here on H1-B's) know. Several have been fencesitting on whether to buy something; hope it's not too late for them.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:08:52 AM EDT
Ok, guys, I have done some research and found the actual temporary regulation on the ATF's web site: http://[url]www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/td471.pdf[/url] Zoom and 71_Hour-Achmed, the regulations do not amount to actual prohibitions if the procedures are followed. You may want to let your friends know this. Some background: anti-gun Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois passed this law in 1998 prohibiting non-immigrant aliens from buying or possessing firearms or ammunition. However, exemptions were provided and the easiest exemption was: 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(A) [The prohibition does not apply if the nonimmigrant alien is:] (A) Admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes [b][u]or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;[/b][/u] As you can see, if you obtain, for the foreign client, a hunting license or permit, [b]before[/b] the client arrives, that should take care of 90% of the problem. The BATF goes on to say: [i]We do not interpret the ‘‘admitted to’’ prong to cover persons entering the United States to hunt, because it would be difficult to verify this justification. [b]Moreover, such persons can take steps to fall within the hunting license or permit exception.[/b][/i] A stupid rule, which will not protect anybody, but which can be gotten around legally.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:23:09 AM EDT
That's OK since getting a hunting lisence is very very easy. Here in Florida (for those over 26) it simply involves a trip to the Tax Collector's office or the nearest Wal-Mart or Sporting Goods Store that is authorized to issue permits. All you have to do is tell the guy which permits you want and hand him the cash. I bought my first permit at the Seminole County Tax Collector's Office since it was right down the road from me. I bought subsequent lisences from Academy Sports after I moved to Pensacola. I don't expect this to hurt anybody who holds a hunting lisence. Whereas non-hunters won't be able to get a gun. All this means is that all non-immigrant VISA holders will also have to get a $12.50 hunting lisence. In Florida those born after June 1, 1975 have to attend a Hunter Ed. Class. Even that is easy enough. The first day was an overview of Hunting Regulations and the difference between Migratory and Native Birds. I.E. The Quail and Turkey are the only 2 birds considered native to Florida. The rest are migratory. The second day we simply had to safely fire several rounds from a .22 Rifle...and shoot 3 rounds from a shotgun (1 in a Gong and 2 at clay pigeons). Not required but some also got to shoot Black Powder.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:59:30 AM EDT
What about nonhunting firearms? "Yeah, this Kahr 9mm is perfect for shooting prairie dogs, and it conceals soooo well in my pocket, too!"
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:05:49 AM EDT
Personaly, I've been a-scared of aliens ever since the first movie came out! But seriously, I've known green cards that have told me how easy it is to do everything I for an American sometimes take for granted. Buying guns and voting are two that come to mind. Here in 'sconsin it amazes me that everything hinges around the Driver's License. You get one of those things and you can almost anything you want for some reason.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:07:18 AM EDT
There's an easier way to ban foreigners from buying guns, -=RaNt On=- DON'T LET THEM IN THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!-=RaNt OfF=-
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 8:25:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: What about nonhunting firearms? "Yeah, this Kahr 9mm is perfect for shooting prairie dogs, and it conceals soooo well in my pocket, too!"
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Good question. It appears that the answer is straighforward: 1) A non-immigrant alien who does not use an exemption (like the hunting license exemption) cannot own or possess any gun or ammunition, period. 2) A non-immigrant alien who gets a hunting license is completely exempted and can then own any gun or any ammunition that he could otherwise possess like a US citizen or a US permanent resident alien. The law is only concerned about possessing the hunting license. It does not say that the alien has to actually go hunting, or that the guns have to be suitable for hunting, or anything like that. In theory, the non-immigrant alien could obtain a hunting license and then apply for an FFL or a Class 3 license.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 8:58:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 9:12:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: People here on temporary visas or visiting should not be allowed to get anything - including driver's licenses, library cards or guns.
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People can live in the US on temporary visas for many years. This is especially true if they apply for permanent residence, for which the processing times have become unbelievably long (4 years in my case). I lived on a temp visa for about 8 years, as a student and then on an H1 while waiting for my permanent residence application to be processed by mother INS. Non-immigrant aliens are still human beings, and as long as they obey the laws and customs of America, they are entitled to its protections. Most states rightly permit aliens to own guns for any lawful reason, including self-defense. The exceptions are telling; in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, no alien (including permanent resident aliens) can own ANY guns for ANY reason, even in the home. Treating non-citizens and non-immigrant aliens as non-persons and shutting them out of civic life will ultimately backfire; it will hinder, not help their assimilation. In the case of guns, it will keep them distant from their safe and lawful uses, and will guarantee that when they eventually become citizens and voters, they will view guns with the distaste and fear that come from unfamiliarity. Picking and choosing who gets to exercise which fundamental rights can eventually lead to no one exercising any.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:05:58 AM EDT
Permanent Resident Aliens can be drafted. So, they don't get to vote, but pay taxes, can own firearms generally and are afforded the remainder of Constitutional Rights. It's odd they can be forced to serve and not be able to vote but I doubt there is little standing in the way of a permanent resident becoming a citizen and I would highly recommend it Selective Service (the Draft) Although there is currently no military draft, men who are American citizens (regardless of country of residence) or aliens who are permanent residents of the United States are required to register within 30 days of their 18th birthday. Within the U.S., registration forms should be available at any Post Office. On-line registration is also available. To find out more about registration and related issues, you may visit the Selective Service System's web site
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:20:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nightstalker: ..but I doubt there is little standing in the way of a permanent resident becoming a citizen and I would highly recommend it
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The only barrier is that for most permanent residents, there is a 5-year waiting period between when they become permanent residents and when they can apply for citizenship. If they have stayed law-abiding, not been on govt. assistance, and met other straightforward and reasonable requirements, then their citizenship application will almost always be granted. I agree with you that every permanent resident should strongly consider becoming a citizen. From my point of view, it was an easy decision; this had become my home, and I considered myself an American in thought and ideology (whatever that means!) It is an honor to be a citizen of the United States of America.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 11:23:17 AM EDT
the regulations do not amount to actual prohibitions if the procedures are followed
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I wasn't trying to state that it was a prohibition. When you make it so that you can't depend on getting permission to bring your firearm into the country, selling hunting trips becomes much harder. I take the quote "[bring in a firearm] as long as they satisfy U.S. Customs Service agents" to mean that the agents at the airport can arbitrarily decide whether not not to allow the firearm into the US. You can't plan an expensive trip based on a guess as to how the particular agent feels at the particular moment you run into him in customs. While that might be acceptable for an older white male bringing a single-shot shotgun into the country to hunt deer, I wouldn't want to be a black male bringing an AR-15 into the country for a service rifle match.z
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:36:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom:
the regulations do not amount to actual prohibitions if the procedures are followed
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I wasn't trying to state that it was a prohibition. When you make it so that you can't depend on getting permission to bring your firearm into the country, selling hunting trips becomes much harder. I take the quote "[bring in a firearm] as long as they satisfy U.S. Customs Service agents" to mean that the agents at the airport can arbitrarily decide whether not not to allow the firearm into the US. You can't plan an expensive trip based on a guess as to how the particular agent feels at the particular moment you run into him in customs. While that might be acceptable for an older white male bringing a single-shot shotgun into the country to hunt deer, I wouldn't want to be a black male bringing an AR-15 into the country for a service rifle match.z
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I generally agree with you. Unfortunately, that is a problem with controlled borders in general. My understanding is that "satisfying U.S. Customs Agents" is not completely arbitrary. If you have sufficient documentation, such as a letter of invitation for a match, tickets, hotel reservations, etc. then their discretion increasingly disappears. I agree with you that it is a nuisance and there will always be the Power Trip officer one occasionally encounters.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:35:55 PM EDT
Yet another unconstitutional gun law. Since the RKBA is a right PROTECTED by the Constitution, NOT GRANTED by it, RKBA applies to all humans as an inalienable right (even if they are an alien.) So much of our Constitution has been construed to apply to residents, not citizens. Here is a right which clearly applies to residents and is not treated as such. Boy, the Framers would have a seizure if they came back and saw how little was left of the substance of their document.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:54:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SELFDEFENSE: Yet another unconstitutional gun law. Since the RKBA is a right PROTECTED by the Constitution, NOT GRANTED by it, RKBA applies to all humans as an inalienable right (even if they are an alien.) So much of our Constitution has been construed to apply to residents, not citizens. Here is a right which clearly applies to residents and is not treated as such. Boy, the Framers would have a seizure if they came back and saw how little was left of the substance of their document.
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I understand what you are saying, but I take a stricter defintion of whom the Constitution applies to. To me, it applies ONLY to citizens. Any foreigners who come here do so SOLELY at our pleasure, and IMO should NOT be able to demand the same rights as citizens. If they want full rights as citizens, let them BECOME citizens, to whom all the benefits and DUTIES fo citizenship apply to. I FULLY support any such effort they would undertake. Take that freak who shot up Appalachian Law School. A non-resident alien, I beleive, and the antis use him as why my guns should be banned. One more thing - the Constiution has NOTHING TO DO with the right to go hunting.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:57:16 PM EDT
SELFDEFENSE, I like the way you think except for the part of the US Constitution applies to all humans. It doesn't... just US Citizens. I think our founding fathers wouldn't care to extend jurisdiction of the constitution to citizens of other country. Finally, "we the people, in order to form a more perfect union" means just US citizens. It wasn't until the modern era of our country where "people" was started to be intrepreted as everyone (when it fit the agenda).
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 2:13:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: People here on temporary visas or visiting should not be allowed to get anything - including driver's licenses, library cards or guns.
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(snip) Most states rightly permit aliens to own guns for any lawful reason, including self-defense. The exceptions are telling; in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, no alien (including permanent resident aliens) can own ANY guns for ANY reason, even in the home.
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Sorry, that is incorrect. It is only hi-capacity handguns, shotguns and rifles that resident aliens are prohibited from owning/using/transferring in Massachusetts, UNLESS they have express written permission from the Colonel of the MA State Police. Because only the hi-cap lic. (LTC-A) allows citizens to carry concealed, that option is effectively ruled out for resident aliens who live in MA. They are, however allowed to apply for, and receive, FID cards for non-hicap guns. Oddly enough, through a quirk in the G&*%$## messed-up laws here in MA, a non-resident alien with permanent residency in another state can apply for, and receive, a licence to carry (A) in MA, good for hi-caps and all pistols. Go figure...[rolleyes] ................ Massachusetts is the crash-test dummy for anti-gun laws. - --CARLA HOWELL
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:14:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stator: SELFDEFENSE, I like the way you think except for the part of the US Constitution applies to all humans. It doesn't... just US Citizens. I think our founding fathers wouldn't care to extend jurisdiction of the constitution to citizens of other country. Finally, "we the people, in order to form a more perfect union" means just US citizens. It wasn't until the modern era of our country where "people" was started to be intrepreted as everyone (when it fit the agenda).
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Actually, if you read the Constitution written by the founding fathers, it makes clear distinctions between [b]citizens[/b], [b]persons[/b] and [b]the people[/b]. Only citizens can be President, and members of Congress, for example. But the rights in the Bill of Rights are guaranteed to all the people, and all persons. This is not a modern construction. It is as old as the Republic. You are correct that the Constitution does not extend to foreign citizens, [b]when they are outside the United States[/b]. When they are inside the US, they come under our jurisdiction, have to obey our Constitution and our laws, and enjoy the protection of the same. They do not have [b]all[/b] the rights of citizens, but they do have [b]most[/b] of them.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:26:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 95thFoot: Sorry, that is incorrect. It is only hi-capacity handguns, shotguns and rifles that resident aliens are prohibited from owning/using/transferring in Massachusetts, UNLESS they have express written permission from the Colonel of the MA State Police. Because only the hi-cap lic. (LTC-A) allows citizens to carry concealed, that option is effectively ruled out for resident aliens who live in MA. They are, however allowed to apply for, and receive, FID cards for non-hicap guns. Oddly enough, through a quirk in the G&*%$## messed-up laws here in MA, a non-resident alien with permanent residency in another state can apply for, and receive, a licence to carry (A) in MA, good for hi-caps and all pistols. Go figure...[rolleyes]
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95th, you live in Mass. so I will defer to your knowledge. The reason I thought this was because I read the following link: http://[url]www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/140-129b.htm[/url] of which I thought the relevant sections were:
(1) Any person ... may submit ... an application for a firearm identification card, ... which the licensing authority shall issue, unless the applicant: ... (vii) is an alien;
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Perhaps there is another section I am not aware of? I have a non-citizen friend in Boston, who I have taken shooting and who is interested in shooting... if he can buy a gun, perhaps I can nudge him along... [:)]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:42:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I understand what you are saying, but I take a stricter defintion of whom the Constitution applies to. To me, it applies ONLY to citizens.
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If the Constitution doesn't apply to aliens, that means that they are exempt from obeying the laws that are enacted by the authority of the Constitution. [:O] This is obviously not the case. [:)] Seriously, you may [b]feel[/b] that the Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens. I have the onerous duty of informing you that it in fact does, and historically always has. Your feeling that it shouldn't, doesn't make it so, any more than the anti's feeling that it doesn't protect the RKBA.
Any foreigners who come here do so SOLELY at our pleasure, and IMO should NOT be able to demand the same rights as citizens.
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They don't have the [b]same[/b] rights as citizens. But if we have admitted them legally, and they are living among us following our laws and customs, then they are entitled to the same rights as all lawful persons. If we feel that they are not deserving of these, then we should never have admitted them in the first place, and we should make them leave now.
If they want full rights as citizens, let them BECOME citizens, to whom all the benefits and DUTIES fo citizenship apply to. I FULLY support any such effort they would undertake.
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I agree with this. But citizenship is the ultimate prize for an immigrant, and the US does not give it out quickly. For instance, permanent resident aliens have to wait for five years before they can apply for citizenship. They still have to live their lives in the meantime.
One more thing - the Constiution has NOTHING TO DO with the right to go hunting.
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Absolutely. It has everything to do with the individual right to lawful defense of self, family, home and community. Law abiding non-citizens are entitled to the lawful exercise of this natural right.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:30:24 PM EDT
So in otherwords if my wife (who is awaiting PRA status) is driving my car and it has a couple of rounds that fell out of my range bag on the floor in the back seat she is screwed? For those of you who think only U.S. Citizens should be afforded rights under the Constitotion, you are as bad as all the liberals. The bill of rights does not grant one single right to anyone. Read it sometime. It limits what govt can do. the rights protected by the BOR are inalienable and endowed by our creator. The amazing thing about our constitotion is it recognizes (oppesed to granting) our rights. Any "right" that is granted may be taken away. Chokey, are you native american? if not should your family have been kicked out and deprived of having there rights recognized or is OK to limit it now that your family is here?
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 5:36:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
Originally Posted By 95thFoot: Sorry, that is incorrect. It is only hi-capacity handguns, shotguns and rifles that resident aliens are prohibited from owning/using/transferring in Massachusetts, UNLESS they have express written permission from the Colonel of the MA State Police. Because only the hi-cap lic. (LTC-A) allows citizens to carry concealed, that option is effectively ruled out for resident aliens who live in MA. They are, however allowed to apply for, and receive, FID cards for non-hicap guns. Oddly enough, through a quirk in the G&*%$## messed-up laws here in MA, a non-resident alien with permanent residency in another state can apply for, and receive, a licence to carry (A) in MA, good for hi-caps and all pistols. Go figure...[rolleyes]
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95th, you live in Mass. so I will defer to your knowledge. The reason I thought this was because I read the following link: http://[url]www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/140-129b.htm[/url] of which I thought the relevant sections were:
(1) Any person ... may submit ... an application for a firearm identification card, ... which the licensing authority shall issue, unless the applicant: ... (vii) is an alien;
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Perhaps there is another section I am not aware of? I have a non-citizen friend in Boston, who I have taken shooting and who is interested in shooting... if he can buy a gun, perhaps I can nudge him along... [:)]
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It should be no problem, but be aware that Mass. law, under the infinite wisdom of its hoplophobic legislators has deemed that in Massachusetts, a "firearm" is a handgun. Anything else is a long gun or sub-divided into its sub-types, i.e., rifle, shotgun, etc. I have called at least four police depts. in four towns a while back trying to resolve an issue about a gun law and I got four different answers- even the cops up here can't figure out the laws, so, they "err on the side of caution and public safety" and bag everybody with an unexplainable gun situation,and let the lawyers sort it out later. For example, there is no expressly written provision that long gun, (non-hi-capacity) must be cased when in a motor vehicle. Like all post-1899 firearms, it must at least have a trigger lock on it. People with muskets don't even need so much as a trigger lock or case, but people have been arrested or had their property seized anyway, and retrieved it only after much ha$$le later.
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