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Posted: 9/1/2005 5:28:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:30:18 AM EDT
probably the best post of the NOLA dabacle..
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:30:50 AM EDT
It's SOP for the .gov to only deal with problems after they become big problems, not before.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:31:27 AM EDT
how many years until the History channel creates an episode of "Histories Greatest Blunders" of this.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:31:41 AM EDT
100% agreement. It is a major f-up. There is no organization...........
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:32:26 AM EDT

how about, it is a disgrace to the comprehension of human nature too. My wife understands now why I need all of those mags a nd boxes of ammo. So in some sense, this has been bittersweet for me.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:32:34 AM EDT
Unfortuntely I think there would be same total breakdown no matter what city it happened in. This is just to big a disaster.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:33:36 AM EDT
I think the media needs to focus more on the positive being done. You know there's got to be a zillion "feel good" stories of good Samaritans helping out, doing what's right. I honestly think if you pay attention to the good, you'll get more good.

I have it hard to believe that after the tsunami last year that there wasn't looting and what not. But what coverage did we see?

Patty
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:33:37 AM EDT
Agreed. What I don't understand is why there hasn't been a significant effort to get some control over the looting? Isn't martial law supposed to be in effect? Does the NG need to be federalized before they can take much action or can the state gov arm and deploy them to suppress looting? Or has PC taken over so much that no gov offical has the balls to take effect action? what a terrible situation that is going on...and just seems to be getting worse exponetionally.

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:33:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
how about, it is a disgrace to the comprehension of human nature too. My wife understands now why I need all of those mags a nd boxes of ammo. So in some sense, this has been bittersweet for me.

Yeah I posted something similar yesterday. The girlfriend knew why I had what I have, but didn't think it could happen.

Sad.........
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:33:56 AM EDT
It is a complete clusterfuck.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:34:11 AM EDT
Welcome to the jungle.

What's going on does not surprise me one bit.
I was actually expecting it to be worse.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:35:19 AM EDT
i dont think you can compare this event and 9/11. after 9/11, the people of NYC seemed to come together. they didnt start shooting at the FDNY and NYPD when they were putting themselves in danger to rescue survivors. NYC wasnt 80% underwater. etc.... i'm not saying that the officials are handling this situation the best they can, but you just cant compare the two events.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:35:37 AM EDT
It appears that the people who failed to evacuate were largely the dregs of humanity. As another poster pointed out, nobody has "gone wild;" it's just that the animals have been unleashed. NO today is what you get when the lowest elements of society are unregulated.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:36:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
how about, it is a disgrace to the comprehension of human nature too. My wife understands now why I need all of those mags a nd boxes of ammo. So in some sense, this has been bittersweet for me.



Same here. The Mrs finally understands why I stock pile food and water. Guns and bullets was a given.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:36:32 AM EDT
I'm listening to the NO scanner and most of what I'm hearing is the National Guard setting up security perimeters to conduct an operation. The thought that here in the US that we have a city so out of control that our own military is conducting operations just like it was Iraq is very disturbing.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:36:34 AM EDT
I'm certainly in agreement. I didn't see this type of behavior in NYC on or following 9/11. Everyone remained calm and worked together. That was a defining moment that everyone was proud of.

Now this situation in NO, well, it is a disgrace. The state and local government's incompetence and the mentality of the looters and troublemakers is unreal. The place looks like something you'd see in Mad Max.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
I think the media needs to focus more on the positive being done. You know there's got to be a zillion "feel good" stories of good Samaritans helping out, doing what's right. I honestly think if you pay attention to the good, you'll get more good.

I have it hard to believe that after the tsunami last year that there wasn't looting and what not. But what coverage did we see?

Patty



I agree. CNN is just doing their best that drag out dirty laundry. When the Gov. of Mississippi tried to state that the Fed Gov. was doing a good job, the CNN prick cut him off, talked over him and insisted that the Fed Gov wasn't doing enough.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:37:47 AM EDT
When all of this is over, who is going to go to NO for a vacation? I went there once and had a fun time, but I didn't feel safe. Know people know just who live there and will probably never go back. NO will never be the same..........
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:38:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i understand the disaster. i understand the suffering.
to some degree i understand the looting.

What i don't understand is the shooting at rescue workers and helicopters
The complete failure of Emergency services in a city that knew full well this could happen
The complete failure of the State of La to seem to have any grasp of whats going on
the Complete Failure of Emergency management

I certainly don't see the .gov as the savior but given what happened in NYC on 9/11 and the response they had, it is beyond obvious local and state gov in La is incompetant.


sorry just needed to rant



If you saw the news conference and comments by the Governor of Louisiana, and her comments regarding the looting, it explains a lot.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:38:47 AM EDT
and don't forget the political black eye that W could have now:

Two major disasters under his watch (9/11 and now this). Neither of which were his fault, but they did happen on his watch, and his reaction could very well set the stage for things to come.

I'm morbidly curious in the political fallout which is bound to happen over the coming weeks. Lots of finger pointing and "told ya so's" abound.

As this thing unfolds, I hope he'd be mindful to pay attention to the little things, as well as the monumental. Sometimes the little things have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass...

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:40:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 5:41:27 AM EDT by captainpooby]
You bring up an interesting point. I've been thinking about this and I dont believe this would happen just anywhere in America.
For example: When Tampa Bay played a California team(Oakland?) for the championship on their way to the Superbowl a few years back I made a prediction. Win or lose, Tampa would come home to a great celebration and welcome and win or lose, they would burn 12 cars in a riot in California.

They burnt 11 cars and Tampa had a party. I was off by one car.

I dont believe this would happen in Florida.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:40:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By teknofear:
and don't forget the political black eye that W could have now:

Two major disasters under his watch (9/11 and now this). Neither of which were his fault, but they did happen on his watch, and his reaction could very well set the stage for things to come.

I'm morbidly curious in the political fallout which is bound to happen over the coming weeks. Lots of finger pointing and "told ya so's" abound.

As this thing unfolds, I hope he'd be mindful to pay attention to the little things, as well as the monumental. Sometimes the little things have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass...

I am glad I am now W....

I can't imagine what he has to go through right now. No wonder he looks washed out.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:41:25 AM EDT
What's most entertaining is the fact that everyone knew this would happen with the first really bad hurricane to hit, yet they were still this unprepared.


Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:42:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NukeThemTillTheyGlow:
Agreed. What I don't understand is why there hasn't been a significant effort to get some control over the looting? Isn't martial law supposed to be in effect? Does the NG need to be federalized before they can take much action or can the state gov arm and deploy them to suppress looting? Or has PC taken over so much that no gov offical has the balls to take effect action? what a terrible situation that is going on...and just seems to be getting worse exponetionally.





The government is hamstrung by its fear of being vilified in the media for responding in a manner that you and I would feel is appropriate but the press would have a field day with.

The NG does not need to be federalized for the governor of the state to deploy them for security or disaster relief. The NG does need to be federalized before the POTUS can control them. In this case I would support federalization of the NG in areas where the governor has her thumb up her ass.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:46:27 AM EDT
If you want to know how to handle a natural disaster just look to our Great Grandfathers. In the 1906 SF quake, and the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, civil order was established right away by the Army at the point of a gun. Looters were shot on sight, and able bodied men detained to work.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:46:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i understand the disaster. i understand the suffering.
to some degree i understand the looting.
What i don't understand is the shooting at rescue workers and helicopters
The complete failure of Emergency services in a city that knew full well this could happen
The complete failure of the State of La to seem to have any grasp of whats going on
the Complete Failure of Emergency management
I certainly don't see the .gov as the savior but given what happened in NYC on 9/11 and the response they had, it is beyond obvious local and state gov in La is incompetant.
sorry just needed to rant



Actually Blanco and the Mayor of N.O. are doing an excellent job along with the Emergency Services and management situation. These people know and were told to gtf out days before the hurricane. They all decided to stay for one reason or another. The job there is immense. If they would have evaced when they were told the drain on services and supplies would be minimal in N.O. The only critcism I can see is not laying down the law in force from the very start in the problem area. A couple of looters shot from the beginning and left in the street would've stopped this bs from the get go. 3 or 4 po po sniper teams on the roofs to maintain order. Start a riot, get shot; martial law.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:48:18 AM EDT
It may not be too much longer till NO resembles the Mogue in Black Hawk Down.


Now that they are shooting at the rescuers, who knows???


All I'll say is "call in the little birds."
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:48:44 AM EDT
it wont be long before michael moore will make a movie saying how GW was partying on vacation and ignored the disaster for a whole day before flying over it...
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:55:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
I think the media needs to focus more on the positive being done.





NFW the media would go to THAT extreme!! Not those asshats.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:55:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:56:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
When all of this is over, who is going to go to NO for a vacation? I went there once and had a fun time, but I didn't feel safe. Know people know just who live there and will probably never go back. NO will never be the same..........



NO is/was an armpit at best. I was there at the end of July and during my 5-day stay, 12 people were shot on the street.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:58:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 6:06:26 AM EDT by monkeyman]

I will say this bluntly. You guys are full of shit.

I think people need to cut FEMA and the local/state government some slack. The city is wiped out. This means the city governement as well as the state government (NO is the state capitol if I am not mistaken). The cops, city and state workers are all personally affected, manyhave lost their homes. This situation is unlike any other we've ever had in the US on this scale. They couldn't have possibly prepared for every contingency or the massive devistation.

The failure is by people to understand that emergency management is not an exact science. The failure is the expectation that emergency response is immediate and and that you should be rescued first. The failure is instead of doing something constuctive, people want to start playing the blame game.

FEMA didn't cause the hurricane, they are doing their best to respond.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:00:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:03:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 6:03:42 AM EDT by HardShell]
Sad/disappointing in the extreme, but IMO not surprising...
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:04:03 AM EDT
It is a disgrace to every American. We need combat troops in there, NOW!!! (yesterday)

The Feds need to take over.

An American city, looks like Baghdad!!!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:05:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:05:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 6:06:47 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
If there's anyone here not doing enough, it's is the folks at the state and local level. I just heard a report from the Pentagon a few minutes ago on CNN stating that there were more resources waiting offshore to be brought in...both men and equipment. But the locals aren't advising them where to go or anything. Until they tell them what it needed, where and make the request, they can't do anything. The Federal Goverment had the togetherness to get it ready and on the way BEFORE the reque4st was even made. Now it's up to the LA governor and the administration to decide what to do with it and ask for it to be brought in.

Many on the news are acting as if Bush, FEMA and Homeland Security isn't doing enough and are incompetent. It seems to me like the folks in the state governemnt down there are the ones who are incompetent. They have far too many people calling shots there, some giving conflicting directions.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:06:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 6:08:28 AM EDT by uncle_frank]
Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
If you want to know how to handle a natural disaster just look to our Great Grandfathers. In the 1906 SF quake, and the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, civil order was established right away by the Army at the point of a gun. Looters were shot on sight, and able bodied men detained to work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




No TV then bud!




If I had my way, the media would be classified with the looters.

BTW, the people at that time had no problem with how things were done.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:07:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
I will say this bluntly. You guys are full of shit.

I think people need to cut FEMA and the local/state government some slack. The city is wiped out. This means the city governement as well as the state government (NO is the state capitol if I am not mistaken).



It's not. You are.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:08:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i understand the disaster. i understand the suffering.
to some degree i understand the looting.

What i don't understand is the shooting at rescue workers and helicopters
The complete failure of Emergency services in a city that knew full well this could happen
The complete failure of the State of La to seem to have any grasp of whats going on
the Complete Failure of Emergency management

I certainly don't see the .gov as the savior but given what happened in NYC on 9/11 and the response they had, it is beyond obvious local and state gov in La is incompetant.


sorry just needed to rant



I will say this bluntly. You guys are full of shit.

I think people need to cut FEMA and the local/state government some slack. The city is wiped out. This means the city governement as well as the state government (NO is the state capitol if I am not mistaken). The cops, city and state workers are all personally affected, manyhave lost their homes. This situation is unlike any other we've ever had in the US on this scale. They couldn't have possibly prepared for every contingency or the massive devistation.

The failure is by people to understand that emergency management is not an exact science. The failure is the expectation that emergency response is immediate and and that you should be rescued first. The failure is instead of doing something constuctive, people want to start playing the blame game.

FEMA didn't cause the hurricane, they are doing their best to respond.



Let's see. They damn well knew Lake P'Train would flood the city after a major Hurricane. They probably should figure that people would go to the high spots like freeway overpasses. These people are on these overpasses with no food or water. They did not have a comprehensive plan for the one disaster that was lilely to befall their city.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:09:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By teknofear:
and don't forget the political black eye that W could have now:

Two major disasters under his watch (9/11 and now this). Neither of which were his fault, but they did happen on his watch, and his reaction could very well set the stage for things to come.

I'm morbidly curious in the political fallout which is bound to happen over the coming weeks. Lots of finger pointing and "told ya so's" abound.

As this thing unfolds, I hope he'd be mindful to pay attention to the little things, as well as the monumental. Sometimes the little things have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass...

I am glad I am now W....

I can't imagine what he has to go through right now. No wonder he looks washed out.


He really doesnt have to worry about a damn thing.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:09:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 6:11:16 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
What's most entertaining is the fact that everyone knew this would happen with the first really bad hurricane to hit, yet they were still this unprepared.

Exactly.

As far as embarassing, the events unfolding in the city of New Orleans - the massive looting and even police looting - it's not a national disgrace - it's a NATIONAL SYMBOL!

THAT is what America truly is today in every major city. Every city that has become "ghettoized" and "ebonified" by the thug subculture of rap/hip-hop that has spread like a plague across America is like that. We don't punish criminals. We shrug our shoulders, demonize their guns and let the wilding continue.

That's the massive double-deep generation of Allen Iverson, Tupac Shakur, Al Sharpton, Kwiese Mfume, fiddy-cent, Ray Lewis, Snoop-dog and more that has infected and completely overtaken our mainstream music, TV, movies, sports and every other cultural common thread running through America. And it's the indocrintation of whole generations of "gimme-gimme-gimme" and "you owe me my props" class-warfare rhetoric and ejukashun.

THAT is America today in every major city in every state.


Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:09:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
You bring up an interesting point. I've been thinking about this and I dont believe this would happen just anywhere in America.
For example: When Tampa Bay played a California team(Oakland?) for the championship on their way to the Superbowl a few years back I made a prediction. Win or lose, Tampa would come home to a great celebration and welcome and win or lose, they would burn 12 cars in a riot in California.

They burnt 11 cars and Tampa had a party. I was off by one car.

I dont believe this would happen in Florida.



Pooby...surely that is a joke on your part! Ever been to Miami? Since you reference Tampa, how about Ybor City? I could give you several examples of this sort of shit that already HAS happened in Florida. It could happen in the Big Apple too, and don't doubt it for an instant. 9/11 was a vasty different event and happened in a 15-20 acre area in a very good part of town. No way to translate that to half the not-so-good sections of NYC being under water and no coms for LEOs or others for days.

Damned few places are immune from this sort of thing these days.



No, I'm not joking but perhaps I was too broad in saying Florida. I certainly dont believe this would happen just anywhere in America.
Looting? Sure, I saw it myself last year. I believe that will happen everywhere.

Wanton lawlessness and unprovoked violence against the very people trying to help you? Nope, not here, maybe Miami, but therein lies my point.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:09:43 AM EDT
When Allison hit Houston 2 years ago (of course it was not as bad as this) it was pretty bad regarding loss of power and people trapped by flooded roads. The population here is at least 2x NO and no looting was rampant.

I think you guys nailed it on the head in the fact that the people we are seeing going crazy are the bottom feeders and non-resource/education types who don't need to descend that far before acting like animals.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:10:39 AM EDT
Everything I had ever heard about New Orleans, proved true these past few days.
It will always be a cesspool.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:12:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i understand the disaster. i understand the suffering.
to some degree i understand the looting.

What i don't understand is the shooting at rescue workers and helicopters
The complete failure of Emergency services in a city that knew full well this could happen
The complete failure of the State of La to seem to have any grasp of whats going on
the Complete Failure of Emergency management

I certainly don't see the .gov as the savior but given what happened in NYC on 9/11 and the response they had, it is beyond obvious local and state gov in La is incompetant.


sorry just needed to rant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I will say this bluntly. You guys are full of shit.

I think people need to cut FEMA and the local/state government some slack. The city is wiped out. This means the city governement as well as the state government (NO is the state capitol if I am not mistaken). The cops, city and state workers are all personally affected, manyhave lost their homes. This situation is unlike any other we've ever had in the US on this scale. They couldn't have possibly prepared for every contingency or the massive devistation.

The failure is by people to understand that emergency management is not an exact science. The failure is the expectation that emergency response is immediate and and that you should be rescued first. The failure is instead of doing something constuctive, people want to start playing the blame game.

FEMA didn't cause the hurricane, they are doing their best to respond.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Let's see. They damn well knew Lake P'Train would flood the city after a major Hurricane. They probably should figure that people would go to the high spots like freeway overpasses. These people are on these overpasses with no food or water. They did not have a comprehensive plan for the one disaster that was lilely to befall their city.



FEMA is just another impotent Federal agency. They don't think about shit like this, and don't want to. Only the military plans for things in advance, and their track record has not been too great lately.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:15:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
You bring up an interesting point. I've been thinking about this and I dont believe this would happen just anywhere in America.
For example: When Tampa Bay played a California team(Oakland?) for the championship on their way to the Superbowl a few years back I made a prediction. Win or lose, Tampa would come home to a great celebration and welcome and win or lose, they would burn 12 cars in a riot in California.

They burnt 11 cars and Tampa had a party. I was off by one car.

I dont believe this would happen in Florida.




South St Pete would implode as quickly as NOLA. They love to riot there.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:15:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NukeThemTillTheyGlow:
Agreed. What I don't understand is why there hasn't been a significant effort to get some control over the looting? Isn't martial law supposed to be in effect? Does the NG need to be federalized before they can take much action or can the state gov arm and deploy them to suppress looting? Or has PC taken over so much that no gov offical has the balls to take effect action? what a terrible situation that is going on...and just seems to be getting worse exponetionally.



Once you arrest them then what? Where are you going to put them? How are you going to transport them? Are you going to sacrifice transporting people who need evacuated to transport a looter? I wouldn't. Life comes first. Then you can deal with the criminals.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:15:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
Everything I had ever heard about New Orleans, proved true these past few days.
It will always be a cesspool.





yep
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