Got home last night from OCS drill, to tired to do much more than lay down and sleep (after showering).

We spent this weekend in the field, doing area recon missions and react to contact (assaulting through) and it was great fun.  One of the OC's caught a smoke grenade in the face and busted up his nose and may have seriously fractured his face, but that will not be known until later.

Sunday morning we rucked home, 5 miles.  I have two blisters to show for it, testaments that I must be doing at least 5 miles a month from here on out.

To the main point . . . we cleaned our weapons and then three of us gathered them up and went down to the arms vault to turn them in.  Got them all turned in and stepped outside, shot the breeze with one of the SFC's for a moment and then we heard from inside the vault . . . BBBAAAAMMM . . . MSG Parks didn't even cuss, he just said "That's not good . . . " and headed inside.

One of the OC's had not done everything correctly.  He should have completely cleared his weapon.  He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out.  The round must have been jammed into the chamber, because he did pull the bolt out to clean it and to clear it, but it was still dark when he cleared it and he couldn't see into the chamber clearly to see the butt of the casing.  They were checking that all of the weapons had the triggers pulled (for storage) when it went off.

As soon as we heard the discharge . . . we knew that the sky was about to fall on us and we would be smoked like hog being slaughtered.

Repreve (for the moment).  By the time that the paperwork was finished the TAC Officers decided to wait until next month to have us pay that bill.

But it will be paid.

One of the OC's had not done everything correctly. He should have completely cleared his weapon. He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out.

this is why the Military has neglegent discharges, they dont want to spend the time teaching them "the rules of gun safety"

and instead, just tell them to "keep it up and down range" when it is may be loaded, or, in this case, use a cleaning rod instead of visual breech inspection,

that is just stupid.

Wow, that really suprises me. When I wore the green suit each chamber was inspected (read, manual of arms!) prior to turn in. How the heck can someone clean thier weapon and still have a live round in the chamber? Not flaming, as I've had NG's myself (once! w/a 1911).

This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed.

Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class?

Quoted: this is why the Military has neglegent discharges, they dont want to spend the time teaching them "the rules of gun safety" and instead, just tell them to "keep it up and down range" when it is may be loaded, or, in this case, use a cleaning rod instead of visual breech inspection, that is just stupid.

I cannot speak for the other branches, but the USAF teaches you to do a visual inspection of the chamber.

How do you clean a rifle with a round in the chamber???  

Can't pass a rod with a brush partially through.  Sounds like he lied about cleaning.

Quoted: How do you clean a rifle with a round in the chamber???   Can't pass a rod with a brush partially through.  Sounds like he lied about cleaning.

<10 minutes to first BS call.  arfkom is getting slow.

Quoted: One of the OC's had not done everything correctly.  He should have completely cleared his weapon.  He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out.  The round must have been jammed into the chamber, because he did pull the bolt out to clean it and to clear it, but it was still dark when he cleared it and he couldn't see into the chamber clearly to see the butt of the casing.  They were checking that all of the weapons had the triggers pulled (for storage) when it went off.

Is this the OC you are talking about?...

They don't teach you to strip and clean from the breech end?

Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed.

That's why it's a school. They learn, and nothing is as good a teacher as screwing up. The OC may well be salvageable.

I think you can be damned sure that he, and any of his mates present, will not be taking short cuts with clearing again.

NTM

Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class?

Quoted: They don't teach you to strip and clean from the breech end?

exactly. the only guns that should be cleaned from the muzzle are ones like the M1 where you physically can't get a rod into the breech end. and on those I run a bore snake through from that end after using the rod

Quoted: One of the OC's had not done everything correctly. He should have completely cleared his weapon. He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out. this is why the Military has neglegent discharges, they dont want to spend the time teaching them "the rules of gun safety" and instead, just tell them to "keep it up and down range" when it is may be loaded, or, in this case, use a cleaning rod instead of visual breech inspection, that is just stupid.

In the Marine Corps you open the chamber and pass it through the armory window stock first. A closed bolt gets your inspection ready rifle thrown back out the window. A round in the chamber will usually cost you a rank.

Your unit armorer sucks.........In my military career I have been handed loaded weapons that were supposedly "cleared" several times.  I always caught it because you can NEVER let basic weapons safety slip - every firearm you are handed is loaded until you have physically proven otherwise. You say the weapon went off when they were pulling the triggers to have the hammer forward in the arms room. Well, thats only done with a CLEARED weapon. If the armorer did that - shame on him - he should have caught the ineptitude of the OCS candidate.

One of the OC's had not done everything correctly. He should have completely cleared his weapon. He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out. The round must have been jammed into the chamber, because he did pull the bolt out to clean it and to clear it, but it was still dark when he cleared it and he couldn't see into the chamber clearly to see the butt of the casing. They were checking that all of the weapons had the triggers pulled (for storage) when it went off.

This MAY be what they are teaching but that is the most fucked up weapons clearing procedure I have ever heard of. PS - you can always tell if their is a round in the chamber of the M16 - if not by visible light - then by feel (use you finger in the chamber while holding the bolt to the rear, no magazine, weapon on safe).

That almost happened to us during OCS.  I had  given the commands "Inspection, ARMS!" when an OC ejected a round on count 4, which caught the TAC's attention.  He then noticed that the OC still had A MAGAZINE in the rifle!  
The OC got smoked, then the squad leader got smoked, then the platoon sergeant (me) got smoked, then the platoon leader got smoked and then rest of the class, knowing what was coming, started smoking themselves before the TAC screamed the inevitable "EVERYBODY GET DOWN!!!"

The AAR for every weekend always included "when leadership fails, soldiers get hurt".

I never even got to Ready, port, ARMS.

ETA, that particular OC was "too busy" running around doing other stuff when we got back from the field that not only had she not cleaned her weapon, she hadn't even removed the mag.  I guess everyone else was "too busy" running around doing other stuff to even notice....

Hmmmm....   I did not make clear that this was a blank round.

No one was injured.  

The OC accepted responsibility for what happened and his story makes sense.

He said that, in retrospect, he had not put the cleaning rod all the way through.  Had he done it would have pushed the round out.  There were others there who saw him with the bolt out of the rifle and cleaning it.  I suspect that he did not use all four cleaning rods and did not clean correctly . . . this would mean that when the rod stopped, he was short of the chamber.  This would indicate that the weapon had a failure to eject that, when he failed to adequately inspect the chamber, left the unfired round up the spout.

From the OC goes the failure of command to adequately inspect the weapons prior to turn in . . . this is part of what training is about.  Not an excuse, for heads will still roll.  But it may be that he and the current leadership can avoid being kicked out of the program.  Especially since we only have 14 OC's this year, with one who may have to leave medically.

I have to accept my part of the responsibility as well.  I did not check all of the weapons as they were sent into the vault . . . which I should have done.

A Quick Look at Weapons Failures by CWO4 Jeffrey L. Eby The author provides a no-nonsense primer on how to avoid negligent discharges. Every time Marines deploy for war, they experience a rash of negligent discharges. This phenomenon can be attributed to our infrequent carrying of fully loaded weapons. Other than military policeman, the majority of Marines only load weapons to Condition 1 (ready to fire) on training ranges. At all other times the weapon is in Condition 4 (no ammo available). Marines constantly fail to follow even the most basic of firearms safety rules. Those rules, if followed, would prevent most negligent discharges from happening or from creating casualties. The rules are:    • Treat all weapons as if they were loaded. Since negligent discharges inevitably occur when Marines think their weapons are empty, following this simple rule would eliminate most discharges. A weapon that is fully loaded would be handled with the respect it deserves instead of being carelessly waved around and laid about.    • Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot. This is another often violated rule, as Marines rest the barrel of their weapons on their feet, lean the barrels into their own stomachs or carry the weapons across their backs, thereby pointing them at people when they bend over to work or pick something up.    • Keep a straight trigger finger until ready to fire. This is the primary safety of the weapon system. Very few weapons fire on their own, requiring the assistance from a trigger being pulled or depressed.    • Keep the weapon on safe until ready to fire. This works in all cases where a safety exists. For a casualty to occur from a negligent discharge, all four of the safety rules must be disobeyed. Negligent discharges often stem from failure to pay attention during download from Condition 1 to Condition 4, but usually have a most common cause depending on the weapon being handled. Below, I’ll discuss some of the most common causes for consideration for various weapons. M9 Beretta The most common cause of negligent discharge for the M9 Beretta is failure to remove the magazine before attempting to remove the round from the chamber, followed by failure to visually inspect the chamber and magazine well prior to sending the slide forward. M16A2 and M16A4 For the M16A2/A4 and M4, failure to remove the magazine before removing the round from the chamber, followed by failure to visually inspect the chamber and magazine well prior to sending the bolt home, is also the most common cause of negligent discharge. Marines attempt to catch the bullet as it is extracted and ejected from the chamber. On occasion, they end up shoving the bullet back into the magazine well where it floats about due to the sideways hold of the weapon during this movement. It’s possible for the round to be sent back into the chamber as the Marine becomes convinced that he dropped the round, leading to a negligent discharge as the trigger is pulled. M249 Light Machinegun Failure to understand the mechanics of an open-bolt firing system leads to negligently discharging the M249 light machinegun. When loading to Condition 3 (bolt forward on an empty chamber, ammo on the feed tray, safety off) with the cover raised, the bolt is forward and the safety is off. Some Marines have a residual memory of having the weapon on safe while the bolt is forward (which is conducted by quarter-cocking the charging handle and then placing the safety on). This process was ordered to stop Corps-wide in 1998. This practice leads to failure later, when the weapon is being charged. The cover is closed while the Marine attempts to charge the weapon by pulling back onto the charging handle. The operating rod moves to the rear but is wedged between the feed tray cover above it and the safety bar below it. The operating rod will stick to the rear in this “stuck” position until enough jostling occurs to free it from its position, or until the feed tray cover is raised (eliminating the stuck position). When the operating rod stops its rearward movement, the Marine will think he has locked the operating rod onto the sear lock notch when in fact, he is simply wedged into position. This is an extremely dangerous position, as the weapon will be carried around for a while before the operating rod comes free and fires. Once the Marine thinks he has the operating rod locked to the rear, his only remaining indicator is when he attempts to put the weapon on safe only to realize it is already on safe. If he misses this indicator, he’ll likely have a negligent discharge either when he raises the feed tray cover or when the operating rod works itself free from movement and banging around. The only time the weapon should be on safe is when the weapon is loaded to Condition 1, with ammo on the feed tray and the bolt to the rear. The next potential negligent discharge occurs due to friction on the operating rod and bolt while attempting to charge from Condition 3 to Condition 1. With the weapon on fire, bolt forward, and rounds on the feed tray, the Marine attempts to charge the weapon by pulling rearward on the charging handle. A negligent discharge can occur if the Marine attempts to draw the bolt to the rear and cannot complete the movement due to (a) lack of lubrication causing friction, (b) dirt or grime buildup preventing rearward movement, or (c) binding of the drive spring preventing complete rearward movement of the operating rod and bolt. A clean weapon, keeping the weapon on fire until loaded to Condition 1, and maintaining a firm grip on the charging handle until completely locked to the rear will eliminate most negligent discharges. If the operating rod fails to lock, immediate action should be to firmly hold the charging handle to the rear while raising the feed tray cover and removing the source of ammo prior to riding the bolt home. Another failure can be attributed to simple muscle weakness. Failure to snap the charging handle to the rear in a brisk motion can lead to short-stroking the charging handle through no failure of the weapon. This short-stroking will be too short to lock the sear lock notch onto the sear, but can be far enough back to the get the bolt behind the ammunition, stripping a round and firing. A final failure is experienced when unloading from Condition 1 to Condition 4, from a complete failure to understand open-bolt firing systems. The Marine fails to follow unloading procedures entirely and attempts to ride the bolt home while ammunition is on the feed tray. The trigger must be deliberately pulled to perform this act and surprises inexperienced Marines when the weapon fires as designed during the performance of this action. The M240G has the same issues as the M249. For the M240G and M249, the only way to really eliminate negligent discharges when attempting to load to Condition 1 is to change the process of loading during training events. While in Condition 3 we have ammo on the feed tray. We should raise the feed tray cover; remove the ammo; lock the bolt to the rear where it can be positively locked regardless of friction, weakness, or malfunctions; put the weapon on safe; lay the ammo back on the feed tray; and close the cover to achieve Condition 1. In reality we will have gone from Conditions 3 to 4 to 1 in that order. If in Condition 3 while patrolling, we may have negligent discharges while attempting to go to Condition 1, but this will occur during a time when we plan to fire anyway and will be oriented toward our target. M2 .50 Caliber Machinegun and Mk19 40mm Machinegun The Marine Corps has failed to properly articulate weapons Condition 3 for the M2 and Mk19, leading to failure to understand what weapons condition the weapon is in. The most hazardous mistake for the M2 occurs when loading to Condition 3 with the cover raised. With the cover raised, the shooter can see the round holding pawl as the first object on the left side of the feedway. One round to the right of the round holding pawl will not half-load the weapon. If the Marine raises the extractor lever and sets a round under the extractor, he will have half-loaded the weapon without realizing it. After the cover is closed, Marines feel compelled to half-load the weapon by locking the bolt release into full auto and pulling the charging handle to the rear and releasing it. While they think they are half-loaded because they only charged the charging handle once, they are really fully loaded because of the way they loaded the ammunition. Once the difference of loading options is explained thoroughly, commanders should decide what they want from the weapons. If commanders want an escalation of force option, then they should order Marines to load with the cover closed and insert ammo into the feedway until one distinctive click is heard. This will have the ammo on the round holding pawl only. To load to Condition 1 from this point requires two pulls of the charging handle, allowing the first pull to be the warning to the antagonist that his day is getting ugly and the second pull to fully charge the weapon for firing. If commanders want a faster response time for firing of the weapon, then they can authorize cover open loading and have the lead round inserted under the extractor. This will half-load the weapon, requiring only one pull of the charging handle to full-load Condition 1. Marines are taught at Marine Combat Training to load with the cover closed requiring two pulls of the charging handle to load to Condition 1. They are later taught the cover raised loading process, but don’t understand the mechanics of the weapon to realize when they need to charge once or charge twice. Marines are taught that it requires two pulls of the charging handle to load the Mk19 to Condition 1 from a Condition 3 weapon with the cover closed. Military occupational specialty 0331s (infantry machine gunners) often cheat the system by locking the bolt to the rear and loading cover raised. This allows them to close the cover and send the bolt home. (Bolt face grabs the first round that is inserted all the way to the right against the round positioning block, instead of having the lead round to the left being held by the round holding pawl as is usual during cover closed loading.) When the charging handle is pulled to the rear, the first round is shoved down onto the lower face of the bolt in position to fire when the charging handle is sent home again. Because the Mk19 uses the butterfly trigger to both load and fire, Marines accustomed to the M2 can make a mistake when transitioning to the Mk19. The negligent discharge normally occurs when one man inserts the ammo but another takes over the weapon during long-term guard or convoy operations. The second guy doesn’t know if the round is on the round holding pawl or on the face of the bolt. Like for the M2, the Marine Corps hasn’t clarified weapon Condition 3, so there are two options creating two distinct positions of the round. Not realizing where the round is can lead to firing when the bolt is sent home the second time (as is taught). If the command normally changes between the two options, mistakes will eventually occur, especially during long-term operations when gunners relieve each other on loaded weapons without the opportunity for Condition 4 downloads between gunners. A final negligent discharge can potentially occur if the gunner short-strokes the charging handle during the half-load process. If the gunner pulls back onto the charging handle, the ammunition will be pulled into position to be grabbed by the bolt extractors. It is possible to have the ammo load up against the round positioning block, even though the charging handles didn’t lock back to the rear. When the bolt is brought back forward after failing to lock, the round may be in position to be grabbed by the extractors, thereby half-loading the round, even though the Marine didn’t recognize this due to the failure of the bolt locking back. When the Marine finally locks the bolt to the rear, the round will be on the lower face of the bolt, ready to fire when the bolt is sent forward for what the Marine believes to be the first time. Marines must be warned to raise the feed tray cover and inspect the location of the ammunition after short-stroking the bolt to the rear. Failure to do so can lead to firing of the weapon after the bolt is locked to the rear for the first time and sent home for what the gunner believes is the completion of the half-load process. Shotguns Negligent discharges are not common with semiautomatic shotguns like the Bernelli. The unloading procedures are not always understood though. The manual dictates racking the charging handle to eliminate the round in the chamber. Most believe they must rack out all of the ammunition from the magazine tube in the same manner, but that isn’t the case. Once the round is racked out of the chamber by using the charging handle, the shotgun is inverted and the ammunition release lever is pressed to remove the ammunition directly from the magazine tube. A round does not move from the magazine into the loading gate automatically when racking the charging handle as one might think it would. It is not common to negligently discharge pump shotguns either. Some discharges may occur because the slide release is located on the trigger guard, leading to mental mistakes that sometimes see a Marine pull the trigger on a Condition 1 weapon instead of pushing the slide release to remove the round from the chamber. This is completely negligent though, not a failure of the weapon system. Infantry weapons don’t discharge themselves. Marines discharge the weapons. We all have to pay more attention to eliminate these negligent discharges. >CWO3 Eby is the 7th Marines regimental gunner.

Quoted: The OC accepted responsibility for what happened and his story makes sense. He said that, in retrospect, he had not put the cleaning rod all the way through.

How does his story make sense?  

-He obviously didn't clean the chamber - That's a no-go on cleaning right there
- I doubt he cleaned the bolt/carrier group (as odds are it would have pulled the round out - or at least allowed you to see the round) - another no-go
- He didn't use the bore brush (because you sure aren't pushing it down the bore then reversing it - another no go.
- He didn't do a function check after cleaning the weapon - another no-go

What makes you think he cleaned that weapon at all?  You cannot have a loaded weapon if you've cleaned your rifle per the Army's methodology.

Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class?

Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE!

Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE!

In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy.

So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T!

Quoted: One of the OC's had not done everything correctly. He should have completely cleared his weapon. He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out. this is why the Military has neglegent discharges, they dont want to spend the time teaching them "the rules of gun safety" and instead, just tell them to "keep it up and down range" when it is may be loaded, or, in this case, use a cleaning rod instead of visual breech inspection, that is just stupid.

A cleaning rod is an excellent method of clearing a weapon if you see the rod in the ejection port the gun is clear.  It also clears the bore so there is no chance of a bore obstruction.

They do teach weapon safety and to inspect the chamber,  have you ever done "Inspection Arms"?? One of the steps is to inspect the chamber before returning to port arms.  It aint for show, its so you don't hand a loaded weapon to the inspecting officer.

Same thing happened to a 76Y who was serving as a unit armorer in one unit in which I was serving...he didn't check the chamber and someone had jammed a blank in there.  He would drop the bolt, then drop the hammer WITHOUT looking at the chamber.  BAM!  No one got written up, nothing happened.  The door was closed...

He did have ringing ears for a while...

Why was a 76Y acting as the armorer?  Well, out unit armorer lost his security clearance.

He confided in me about the incident and I chided him about pulling such a stunt.  From there after, he rodded all rifles at time of turn in.

Quoted: Quoted: One of the OC's had not done everything correctly. He should have completely cleared his weapon. He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out. this is why the Military has neglegent discharges, they dont want to spend the time teaching them "the rules of gun safety" and instead, just tell them to "keep it up and down range" when it is may be loaded, or, in this case, use a cleaning rod instead of visual breech inspection, that is just stupid. In the Marine Corps you open the chamber and pass it through the armory window stock first. A closed bolt gets your inspection ready rifle thrown back out the window. A round in the chamber will usually cost you a rank.

How can you not push the rod all the way through, the proper way to swab the bore would have been to run the rod till the patch comes out, why would someone wanna run barrel fouling back through. I do not believe he even cleaned his weapon, BECAUSE to clean your weapon it has to be UNLOADED. If he hadda misfire he shoulda reported it to the Gunner or Range officer, officers enlisted all makes mistakes but the mistake should have been averted hours before. Whoever has taught basic weapons safety to these OCS students has FAILED!

There was somebody on this very board that did the same thing

Quoted: Hmmmm....   I did not make clear that this was a blank round. No one was injured.   The OC accepted responsibility for what happened and his story makes sense. He said that, in retrospect, he had not put the cleaning rod all the way through.  Had he done it would have pushed the round out.  There were others there who saw him with the bolt out of the rifle and cleaning it.  I suspect that he did not use all four cleaning rods and did not clean correctly . . . this would mean that when the rod stopped, he was short of the chamber.  This would indicate that the weapon had a failure to eject that, when he failed to adequately inspect the chamber, left the unfired round up the spout. From the OC goes the failure of command to adequately inspect the weapons prior to turn in . . . this is part of what training is about.  Not an excuse, for heads will still roll.  But it may be that he and the current leadership can avoid being kicked out of the program.  Especially since we only have 14 OC's this year, with one who may have to leave medically. I have to accept my part of the responsibility as well.  I did not check all of the weapons as they were sent into the vault . . . which I should have done.

It's a good think that it was a blank round.

Quoted: Impossible. Everyone knows that the OCS officer is 100 times better than ROTC or an Academy

90 day wonders Rule! Not!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T!

Lighten up Francis.

I guess they still use your example as the standard of perfection at basic?

I trust those that learn from mistakes more than those that "never" make them.

The last issue or two of PC magazine has a blurb about roding the weapon being a bad way of clearing even if its been a common practice, because it can damage the bolt face. IIRC, they say to clear the weapon by sight and touch.I'll see if I can find the link to that.
My drill was better than yours, I guess; M16 qual and then squad reflexive fire for the remainder of the day.Good training.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T! Lighten up Francis. I guess they still use your example as the standard of perfection at basic? I trust those that learn from mistakes more than those that "never" make them.

Havent you heard of clearing barrels?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T! Lighten up Francis. I guess they still use your example as the standard of perfection at basic? I trust those that learn from mistakes more than those that "never" make them. sundown.greyledge.net/pages/images/stfu_50.jpg

Gee, you're clever.  Guess that's why you have the only opinion that counts.

I always check to see if my rifle is loaded by pulling the trigger.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T! Lighten up Francis. I guess they still use your example as the standard of perfection at basic? I trust those that learn from mistakes more than those that "never" make them. sundown.greyledge.net/pages/images/stfu_50.jpg Gee, you're clever.  Guess that's why you have the only opinion that counts.

Gee, and you're not.

We have a senior OC, from the previous class, who essentially said the same thing . . . he had even pointed it out to the Platoon Leader as we went into the building (but admitted he didn't clear his weapon, either).

Quoted: Havent you heard of clearing barrels?

ETA:  Senior OC also said that when they got back from the same ruck march their platoon leader had a blank in the chamber, a magazine in (supposed to give those back before we left) and it was set on burst . . .

Getnlemen, I respect your opinions.  Now stop.  You have both made your points.

I believe that part of training in this fashion is to drive home lessons like this and if we throw away those that make the mistakes, we are throwing away an officer has learned a hard lesson.  

If we terminated every OC that made a mistake that could get soldiers killed then there would be no OCS program.  Same goes for every officer program out there.  Mistakes get made in training that do not result in casualties that would or could result in casualties in combat.  If we throw out the baby with the bathwater then we lose those lessons learned.

And he might get the boot . . . LTC has yet to weigh in and say what will happen and he is probably the final arbiter in this situation.

Having a better focus on weapons training is something that may hit here soon.  This is the first weekend that we have had real weapons instead of rubber ducks.

Our guest speaker this weekend (who spoke after this incident, BTW) mentioned a  practice that we get to implement.  He gave his soldiers a single blank round every drill and had them carry their weapons during every drill.  Weapons handling was stressed.  Clearing the weapon when entering the building and chambering a round when leaving the building.  This gave them the opportunity to practice the skills involved in good weapons handling practice, something that is woefully inadequate in many unist in the Guard, because officers frequently do not see it as a priority.  Face it . . . the PAD really only sees the computer as their weapon and it is a dangerous mindset that any leader involved in REMF units can fall into.  No matter their experience level, not seeing your soldiers as warriors first and paper pushers second.

Now I need to get back to my paper pushing for a little while . . .

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T! Lighten up Francis. I guess they still use your example as the standard of perfection at basic? I trust those that learn from mistakes more than those that "never" make them. sundown.greyledge.net/pages/images/stfu_50.jpg Gee, you're clever.  Guess that's why you have the only opinion that counts. Gee, and you're not.

Quoted: Got home last night from OCS drill, to tired to do much more than lay down and sleep (after showering). We spent this weekend in the field, doing area recon missions and react to contact (assaulting through) and it was great fun.  One of the OC's caught a smoke grenade in the face and busted up his nose and may have seriously fractured his face, but that will not be known until later. Sunday morning we rucked home, 5 miles.  I have two blisters to show for it, testaments that I must be doing at least 5 miles a month from here on out. To the main point . . . we cleaned our weapons and then three of us gathered them up and went down to the arms vault to turn them in.  Got them all turned in and stepped outside, shot the breeze with one of the SFC's for a moment and then we heard from inside the vault . . . BBBAAAAMMM . . . MSG Parks didn't even cuss, he just said "That's not good . . . " and headed inside. One of the OC's had not done everything correctly.  He should have completely cleared his weapon.  He had cleaned it, but had not run his rod all the way through . . . got in a hurry and simply pushed it down until it STOPPED (not at the end of the rod) and then pulled it out.  The round must have been jammed into the chamber, because he did pull the bolt out to clean it and to clear it, but it was still dark when he cleared it and he couldn't see into the chamber clearly to see the butt of the casing.  They were checking that all of the weapons had the triggers pulled (for storage) when it went off. As soon as we heard the discharge . . . we knew that the sky was about to fall on us and we would be smoked like hog being slaughtered. Repreve (for the moment).  By the time that the paperwork was finished the TAC Officers decided to wait until next month to have us pay that bill. But it will be paid.

Candidate Retief, I think you need a yellow card on your disclosure of such information on the internet before an internal investigation is over.  Assess yourself 20 demerits.

Is this OCS for a State commission in the Kentucky Guard?

btw, many thanks for your service.  And moreso for biting off on becoming an officer.  The Army needs more quality leaders.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This Officers Canidate has NO business being an officer. I hope they get rid of him. His lack of responsibility and lack of attention to detail will get someone killed or his whole platoon killed. Is this an actual National Guard OCS class or is it a College ROTC class? Up your ass dick head. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER served in a combat MOS. I HAVE! Ever had to work with officers that should have NEVER been commissioned? I HAVE! Ever work with officers that should actually be running the show and don't because they promoted some jackass how was going to get people hurt or killed, just to get rid of him? I HAVE! In ANY military unit, you take weapons VERY SERIOUSLY or people die. Ever seen someone have a M16 explode in their face? I have. First thing they teach is "never, under ANY circumstance, act like you have an unloaded weapon." Ever see a Captain shoot himself through the foot and the bottom of a helicopter because the Captain was too busy "playing" with his .38? I HAVE. Yeah, and it was like the Glock "Foooty" guy. So DON'T roll your eyes at me you stupid moron. I KNOW what I am talking about. You OBVIOUSLY DON'T!

Quoted: Is this OCS for a State commission in the Kentucky Guard? btw, many thanks for your service.  And moreso for biting off on becoming an officer.  The Army needs more quality leaders.

Absolutely.  But because the KMA holds accreditation from Ft. Benning we also receive Federal Recognition.